Death Parade

[Buffalobiian]

Ep 6
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Genti is a pretty shitty arbiter

Really? I think it all comes down to how he actually judges them, because aside from that he shouldn't be that different from Decim. Sure he's rude and brash, but all they end up doing is getting the players to shit themselves in a death game and think about cheating. How they interpret what they see and make a sound ruling is what separates a good arbiter from a shitty one. As far as I've seen, Decim's lack of insight makes him pretty unimpressive. He takes too much at face value.

This episode was after all a comedy one though. To make a point about how unimportant the ruling is, the producers didn't even show the final ruling. Without that, I'll withhold judgement about Ginti but he doesn't seem particularly bright.

I want to see how the bigshots like Nona or the Lotus guy do things.

[neflight86]

Judging by the op, I expect Genti to also have been "unable" to judge this girl and make her into his pet human going forward.

[shinta|hikari]

Idol to hell, garu to reincarnation, period.

[Ryllharu]

The practically ancient Gyaru That is Actually Way Prettier Without Makeup gag never gets old. Ever.

[lelouch]

Episode 7:


Worst episode of the season so far

[Buffalobiian]

Worst episode of the season so far

Why's that? (We seem to have pretty opposite opinions in general, not that it's happening deliberately).

I agree with your previous comment though. Ginti is a shitty arbiter.

I find this episode to be particularly important and enjoyable because it puts perspective on things. As much as Decim sucks as an Arbiter, he's actually the only one trying to do a good job at it. We knew Ginti sees it as just entertainment, but now we know everyone else is just as indifferent about it as well. It's not necessarily their fault, the system's built that way. I have my doubts about whether Decim's really forgotten all the guests' memories though. That face seemed ambiguous to me. At the same time I don't think Decim's ever lied either, so who knows.

Nona too wants to judge people in other ways than to just compare their darkest parts.

[shinta|hikari]

Decim's important thing: Kurokami.

I liked this episode. Just when the formula was getting old, they do a change up.

Nona plays a bigger role than I imagined, and Decim, our MC, finally got his unique trait. Kurokami's reaction to Decim's 'hobby' was priceless.

[Buffalobiian]

HS - Episode 08

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I was going to suggest that the two could be related to each other, but the preview shows otherwise. (That is, the wife assaulted the sister, the kid killed the wife, and the two have a death battle). It's always assumed the perpetrator would be male so I thought they'd try something different.

[Ryllharu]

[HorribleSubs] Death Parade - 11



What an understated and beautiful episode.

Made me tear up a bit, twice actually. Once toward the middle and once again right before the credits.

[shinta|hikari]

One part of this episode just made no sense whatsoever.

Why the hell did they not choose a sleeveless dress for her in the skating scene!?

Other than that, great episode. The horrors of the judgment system were brutally portrayed. I wonder what Decim intends to do now. Flower hair dude better not hurt Nona, or I'm gonna pluck each of those petals with rusty pliers.

[Buffalobiian]

The thought of Yagami Light being judged cracked me up.

Other than that, it's a good episode as you guys have said. I don't agree completely with everything that's been said in this episode though.

Decim said that these tests were creating new instances of darkness in people's hearts that weren't there during their life. Assuming that testing for darkness is correct in the first place, it really depends on whether you're interested in potential darkness or experienced darkness. Some people simply haven't been pushed before, and as Chiyuki says - everyone's prone to negative emotions when prodded. In fact, that makes it all the more important to bait them. Would you kill if given the chance?

You see a similar problem with diagnosis in psychiatry. Someone with acrophobia has to fear height to the extent that it impairs social functionality. Someone with the same degree of fear would not fit the criteria if they lived in their one-story farmhouse their entire lives. Thing is, in psychiatry you don't need to label and fix someone's problem if they're not hindered by it in the first place. However, if you're deciding which of the two people are "worse" and sending them off to the void then an even playing field is required. You can't just leave the test up to life experience.

Chiyuki calls people simple, but I'd rather say they're complex. They're even more complex than Decim sees them to be.

I'm not sure I fully understand Genti's judgement. There is no reason to lie about where he's sending her. Does that mean he decided to throw her into the void out of spite? Was that the horror you're talking about Shinta? Or.. just that you become nothing?

[Ryllharu]

I'm not sure I fully understand Genti's judgement. There is no reason to lie about where he's sending her. Does that mean he decided to throw her into the void out of spite? Was that the horror you're talking about Shinta? Or.. just that you become nothing?

I'm gonna address this one first, but it actually applies to your entire post.

Ginti had been completely flummoxed by Mayu, he had no idea what to do with her, and this was right after he confronted Decim about being unable to decide on Chiyuki. In many of the cases Chiyuki presided over with Decim, and now with Ginti, it proved that their system does not work. You can push people to the breaking point, but it still may not show their true darkness. In fact, it might do the opposite.

Mayu was pushed to the limit, but chose to sacrifice herself. Harada was a real rat bastard, but he actually regretted what he had done once he saw Mayu be "killed" in his place.

Ginti, still at a loss for what to do, decided that he would try one last shot at proving Mayu was bad and should be sent to the void, or good and reincarnated. He gave her a simple choice. 'I'll save you and Harada if you choose to condemn this man instead.' Despite his expectations, Mayu chose to be voided with Harada rather than judge someone she doesn't know a damn thing about. What happened (and why this part of the episode was equally beautiful) was that Mayu was reunited with a redeemed Harada in the void.

The void is only hell if you are sent there alone. Mayu and Harada will fall through oblivion forever...together.

The Tale of Two Murderers was the mirror to this. You had a kid who did evil for all the right reasons, and a man who was a far better representation of what Psycho Pass 2 pretended they knew how to depict: corrupting evil. The kid should have been spared, but the Arbiter methodology of pushing people to their breaking point resulted in two souls needed to be condemned instead of just one. Instead of two people being redeemed in the void thanks to the inherent good within one of them, you had two people being doomed to the void because of the other's corrupting influence.

People are actually not complex. Just a slight difference can send them tumbling one way or the other. If Mayu hadn't been so innocent in her love, Harada might have not been redeemed. If the kid hadn't been pushed over the edge just to see if he would fall, he might have displayed to the cop that people are capable of resisting the need to continue delivering "justice." To show him that his mission, methods, and motivations were repulsive.

One doesn't need some elaborate farce to prove a person's worth or merit, that's only going to force the result to meet the expectations of the examiner. The old woman was judged on nothing more than a conversation and a review of her memories. The reunited childhood friends played a shy and awkward game until they were gently able to open up to each other.

People get hurt, they cry. They get angry, they lash out. They're happy, they smile. People react to and reflect the situations they are placed in. They are surprisingly simple.

[shinta|hikari]

Ginti, still at a loss for what to do, decided that he would try one last shot at proving Mayu was bad and should be sent to the void, or good and reincarnated. He gave her a simple choice. 'I'll save you and Harada if you choose to condemn this man instead.' Despite his expectations, Mayu chose to be voided with Harada rather than judge someone she doesn't know a damn thing about. What happened (and why this part of the episode was equally beautiful) was that Mayu was reunited with a redeemed Harada in the void.

This wasn't what happened. When Ginti told her to choose either Harada or Light to drop into the void, she chose Light. When they got into the elevator, Mayu asked, "Where are we going?" If she chose to join Harada into the void, she obviously wouldn't ask that question.

Ginti then answered, "Where Harada's soul is." This can indeed be interpreted to mean she knew where they were truly heading because she had a rough idea that his soul had been sent to the void before, but her next line wouldn't make sense if that was the case. "Will he really wake up?" she asked. Ginti had already explained to her what kind of place the void is. The void is a graveyard of souls, where only the consciousness remains. Taking his body there to wake him up makes little sense with that in mind.

That conversation implies that Mayu did indeed drop Light to the void. By doing so, she believed she has saved Harada. Ginti then tricked her and told her to drag Harada's body to the elevator and pick up his soul to wake him up.

That was why the elevator mask was fake. That was why Mayu was so shocked when they started becoming dolls. That was why Ginti was so satisfied.

He managed to "pull out" her darkness by forcing her to make a ridiculous choice. There was no way for her to let Harada go into the void, even if they were to be together. She loved him too much and was too selfless for that. By making it a choice between Harada and some other fellow, Ginti compelled Mayu to make an "evil and selfish" choice.

That's what I meant when I said that the horrors of the judgment system was brutally portrayed. It has no fairness or meaning. Ginti is right. Arbiters judge just because they do. They aren't equipped, deserving, or even truly willing.

I agree with you about the conclusion. Mayu got a semi-happy end because her soul was joined with Harada's, and that, at least, sort of rewarded her dedication.

EDIT: Additional evidence that she dropped Light (kudos to the creators for this) into the void:
At the beginning of the elevator scene, Mayu was looking at her right hand with guilt. It was probably the same hand she used to press the red button. There's no other reason for the animators to draw that scene like that.

[Ryllharu]

I'm sorry, but your interpretation of the events is just not correct.

Ginti devilishly smiles post-credits episode 10 when he recreates Harada, with the intent to trick Mayu. He's frustrated and pissed at her when they go to the elevators in episode 11 because she defied is expectations yet again.

Mayu was told to 1) Choose someone to swap Harada with while Ginti "brings him back", something we know is impossible, or 2) Leave Harada to the void, something Mayu could never stand for.

Mayu chose option 3). Go to the void too, where Harada is, rather than fulfill the deal and "get him back," which in turn would have gotten her condemned.


Ginti: "Harada or this guy. You choose who gets thrown in there."
Mayu: "Eh?"
...
Mayu stops right before she presses the button as asks who this is. Ginti refuses, saying she doesn't need to know.
Ginti: "What kind of person would it take to cast Harada into the void?" [Who would Mayu choose to save in order to give up Harada?]
Mayu: "There's no way I'd ever do that!" [There's no way Mayu would ever give up on Harada.]
Ginti: "Then you've already given me your answer, right?" [Ginti is saying that she's always going to choose to save Harada.]
Mayu hesitates.


When we see them again, Harada and she both go to the elevator, knowing she's going to go where he is and be reunited there rather than as part of sparing him from the void, per the deal Ginti created to trick her. Mayu refused to choose, and asked to go to the void where Harada is, rather than accept the deal.

Mayu: 'There must be some meaning in devoting my life to Harada without thinking about why?!'
Ginti: "Wouldn't that be nice..."
Doors shut.
Ginti: "And that's that." [But not delivered with a tone of satisfaction, but with resignation and relief, very uncharacteristic for Ginti]

Their souls fall, but spiral together and finally merge. If Mayu was being secretly punished for making a selfish choice, their souls would have been separated or she would have gone in a separate elevator.

The final image of the dolls holding hands reveals their fate. There is far less meaning to the masks than you're giving them credit for. They only indicate direction, not the judgment.

edit:

EDIT: Additional evidence that she dropped Light (kudos to the creators for this) into the void:
At the beginning of the elevator scene, Mayu was looking at her right hand with guilt. It was probably the same hand she used to press the red button. There's no other reason for the animators to draw that scene like that.

Ambiguity is what makes this series as good as it is. But again I cannot agree. You could easily interpret that same shot as her not choosing, and regretting for not swapping him for someone else. She looks at Harada's unconscious face next, then asks where they will be going. She wouldn't have to ask if she had agreed to his trap because Ginti was supposedly going to bring Harada's soul back in exchange for "Light" being condemned.

Ginti asks what Harada means to her because he can't understand why she would choose to be with Harada rather than to condemn a potential innocent to try to save him.

[Buffalobiian]

Their souls fall, but spiral together and finally merge. If Mayu was being secretly punished for making a selfish choice, their souls would have been separated or she would have gone in a separate elevator.

The final image of the dolls holding hands reveals their fate. There is far less meaning to the masks than you're giving them credit for. They only indicate direction, not the judgment.

But, then why do they not hop into the elevator that's already going to hell? The only point of taking the Heaven elevator only to swap it would be:

1) a change of mind
2) a trick.

As for the judgement system, it's a game of who cracks first. It's not about how sad or sorry or regretful people are for their wrongs. It's about how corruptible they are, not much they repent afterwards.

Whether that should be the correct metric is the question, but I do think that for what they're trying to do (measure maximum darkness), the Arbiters are doing an awfully good job at it.

People are actually not complex. Just a slight difference can send them tumbling one way or the other. If Mayu hadn't been so innocent in her love, Harada might have not been redeemed. If the kid hadn't been pushed over the edge just to see if he would fall, he might have displayed to the cop that people are capable of resisting the need to continue delivering "justice."

But that is complex, and much more complex than the way Arbiters look at humans. From their view, they see fear as the only key motivator in humans. If they sin when provoked they're bad. If they hold out they're good.

That's the simplest look on humans we've seen here. If we weren't so complex, Decim wouldn't struggle to understand us. He wouldn't be reading everything at face value.

[Ryllharu]

Like I said, you're both putting way too much faith into the elevator signs.

Quite a number of times they haven't even shown them.

[lelouch]

Was that seriously light? Episode #?

[shinta|hikari]

@Ryll - Pardon the length. I wanted to be thorough.

The lines you quoted do not really support your conclusions. Your conclusions merely fill in the blanks instead of deducing the events based on what was said.

She looks at Harada's unconscious face next, then asks where they will be going. She wouldn't have to ask if she had agreed to his trap because Ginti was supposedly going to bring Harada's soul back in exchange for "Light" being condemned.

I addressed this in my first post. It makes perfect sense if Ginti told her to pick up Harada's soul and wake him up. Why would Ginto do this? To be consistent with the rest of the lie/trick. If Mayu believes that she has saved Harada, it follows that Harada needs his soul back, and that's what Ginti said to her. Tricking her into riding the same elevator to hell as Harada is simply Ginti following through with his trap (the choice of saving Harada). We all know that choice was designed to trick Mayu into making a bad choice and going to the void.

I'll return the same question to you. If she proposed to go to the void with Harada, why did she ask where they were going? She should already know.

A couple more questions that contradict your interpretation:

Why did she think Harada will wake up (basically get his soul back in his body) if the void is a graveyard of souls, where only the consciousness remains? Ginti explained this to her in this very episode. It even freaked her out.

Why was Ginti so vague when he answered where the two were going? "Where Harada's soul is." Why not just say the void if she made the choice you claim she did? The vagueness supports the idea that it's all Ginti's trick.

Why did Ginti do the elevator mask swap? You're not putting enough meaning into the elevator signs. You praise the show for its subtlety, but you completely ignore how they swapped the elevator sign after the two were inside. Why not just go down using the elevator to hell? It's just a few steps to the left. They animated it that way for a reason.

Why was Mayu so shocked about whatever was happening to them if she knows she's about to go to the void and lose her body?

Why was Ginti satisfied at the end, despite trying his best the entire time to drop Mayu into hell by making her do something evil? Did you just say Ginti was frustrated and pissed at her? She just lambasted him, but all he did was send her off with a sarcastic "Wouldn't that be nice?" and a "This is how it should be." ("That's that" is a rather poor translation of "Kore de ii"). I think he was pretty satisfied with the shit he pulled in the end. If he wasn't, he would be complaining like the bitch he usually sounds like.

I don't understand why you are ignoring these clues and saying they simply aren't relevant.

The biggest jump you did is claiming that somehow there is a 3rd choice. Where did that even come from? Why would you think Ginti, who cares so little about humans and who is so adamant about his judgment method, would even allow her to make such a choice?

Ginti asks what Harada means to her because he can't understand why she would choose to be with Harada rather than to condemn a potential innocent to try to save him.

Or because she was willing to dirty her hands, something she adamantly refused to do before, to save Harada?

If Mayu was being secretly punished for making a selfish choice, their souls would have been separated or she would have gone in a separate elevator.

This is complete speculation. The void is the void. When did arbiters ever care about how you go there?

It's possible Ginti has never sent anyone to reincarnation. Why? Because Mayu clearly deserves that. She's a good girl that died by accident. Why send her to the void in the first place? Why try so hard to test her again and again until she actually fell?

TLDR: I believe the explanation with less assumptions.

[Ryllharu]

They never show Mayu actually making a choice. Never. All we see is her hesitating over and over.

Your explanation actually has no fewer assumptions.

- That the mask flip has any deeper meaning. Both elevators can flip masks. They do it all the time. Just saying, "well the animators put it in, it must be really important!" is terrible reasoning. Ginti also has a cat, and that hasn't had any impact on anything. You can easily say that the mask starts the one way and flips to the other because Mayu is actually being rewarded (which she is), but flips because they still have to go to the void.

- Who wouldn't be shocked their body is disintegrating? Chiyuki had the same reaction when hers started to flake.

- You say Ginti was satisfied, I say Ginti was resigned. Interpretable either way apparently, though I will never agree with yours. The tone of his last line agrees with me.

Ginti couldn't judge her, but wanted a reason to make a decision. He didn't get it. When she refused to play along, he sent them to the void together, not separately. Mayu wasn't willing to sacrifice someone else for Harada, and wasn't willing to abandon him either. Your interpretation can't explain their souls merging together, and the final shot being of two mannequin's holding hands.

We can keep going, or we can agree to disagree.

[Xelbair]

I've got another theory.

Ginti rigged the choice to send Mayu to void. there are few clues: Harada was already in void(which is assumption too, mind you), you can't get back from void.
if she chooses to sacrifice the stranger - she goes to void.
if she chooses to sacrifice herself - she goes to void.
she wouldn't ever chose to sacrifice Harada because that would violate her raison d'etre.

i also think that this Light was just a doll without soul.

now another thing: i do think that masks aren't always showing the same destination! - it depends on personal interpretation of human being sent. For some being removed from human world might be a reward mind you(when you look at reincarnation - the whole idea is to break out of that cycle) - but for it to be a reward you need to live a 100% good life(no doubts), with no error margin.
This would make sense too - she was sent to void, but together - with someone she truly loves - it was basically the supreme reward for her - even if realistically it is a punishment for everyone else.

She had to press the button when she made a DECISION. not when she wanted to SACRIFICE the stranger.. so assuming that her looking at the hand means that she sacrificed the stranger is kinda.. wrong. She just had slight second thought about her decision(which was never ever explicitly shown) - probably because it was final, and she didn't had full information and had to kinda guess.

another thing - didn't Ginti's bar had only one lift? would't it make sense for mask to return to default state? we also don't know if void is above, or below.