Aldnoah.Zero

[shinta|hikari]

A lot of L's and Light's plans are unbelievable. In contrast, Inaho's plans are more believable, to the point that video gamers actually believe they can pull it off themselves in real life. The difference lies in the level of realism the series is trying to portray. Most of Death Note's (I won't even mention NGNL, oops I did) plans are absurdly improbable and plot armored. Predicting that many steps in the future (and having only one plan and that somehow works without problems!) doesn't happen in reality. Naturally, it feels more amazing when it works.

So... you beat most of Zelda's bosses on the first try. What about the times you didn't? That would have resulted in death in Aldnoah Zero. But Inaho is still alive after beating boss after boss after boss. Moreover, I would think playing a game in your room is far less stressful, nerve wracking, and panic inducing than actually risking your life. Inaho's calm is part of what makes him special. Normal people, even soldiers, panic when faced with absurdly powerful opposition.

Er, and what part of the episode suggested he wasn't in any time pressure? They were being attacked. People are dying every second, and more will die if the enemy advances.

Play Demon/Dark Souls 1-2 and beat the bosses there without dying even once before bragging about your skills. Even compared to that, I'm sure Inaho's one hit = death situation is far harder.

In addition, Inaho is not only evaluated for his planning and deduction. His Suzaku-level piloting also adds to his already OP repertoire of skills.

After the anti-freeze equipment didn't work, Inaho came and beat the boss. Inaho can't have been first because he came late. He may or may not have died if he came earlier because he has no data on the enemy, but we will never know because that didn't happen. It was simply luck (and plot!) that some people had become guinea pigs for the anti-freeze system before him.

And please, you completely missed the anti-freeze part until I mentioned it.

TLDR: You overestimate yourself.

[MFauli]

You talk about Death Note being plot armored, but have no qualms about the same being true for Inaho. Yes, failing once for him means death, unlike me failing once at a video game. That´s because Inaho is plot-armored, he´s the chosen protagonist so he cannot die (fucking lol, he even survived a headshot!!1). And if you went through with your complaint about videogames versus Inaho: He has full control over his movement and actions. In not a single first- or third-person action-game do you have this level of natural controls and overview. Compare driving a real car versus a car in GTA - youre much more prone to crashing in the latter, Id assume. Until OculusRift, Morpheus et al become a reality, videogames will always be a lot harder than real life because of this lack of environmental overview. In a current day-videogame, I have often have to input absurd button-commandos to achieve a certain result, and even if Im good at it, Im limited by what the game is programmed to allow me. In reality, I could do whatever pleases me, only limited by physics.

Now, would I have been able to do the same feat that Inaho managed to achieve? As I am, no. I also wouldnt be Nico Rossberg in a formula 1 race as I am now. But if I was acustomed to a Kataphrakt´s controls? Yeah, I think I could have achieved the same thing. Although unlike Inaho, I´d have contacted hq first to ask if we have any high temperature sources. But I guess that wouldnt have been as badass.

What you´re ignoring, though, while you´re focusing on attacking me: Nothing excuses why nobody else of those pilots came up with a similar plan. I´ll give you that Inaho successfully combines these ideas with masterful kataphrakt-piloting (a skill he somehow possessed from the very beginning, sigh); but it´d be nice to see some short scenes of other pilots where they talk to each other, like "incredible that this brat managed to actually do it! I had thought of something similar, but I wasn´t confident enough to try it". Because when it comes down to confidence, Id have no problem accepting that Inaho is more confident then other pilots. But the point stands: What he did shouldnt be enough to earn the title "genius".

[fireheart]

What you´re ignoring, though, while you´re focusing on attacking me: Nothing excuses why nobody else of those pilots came up with a similar plan. I´ll give you that Inaho successfully combines these ideas with masterful kataphrakt-piloting (a skill he somehow possessed from the very beginning, sigh); but it´d be nice to see some short scenes of other pilots where they talk to each other, like "incredible that this brat managed to actually do it! I had thought of something similar, but I wasn´t confident enough to try it". Because when it comes down to confidence, Id have no problem accepting that Inaho is more confident then other pilots. But the point stands: What he did shouldnt be enough to earn the title "genius".

Some nitpicking with two things here, obviously Inaho knew how to use a Kataphrakt, it's not out of the blue seeing as they already showed and talked about how it was part of their school curriculum to learn how to use one. Also from what I noticed there was a total of three pilots that survived this encounter the rest died. And seeing as the other two actually know Inaho etc I don't see why they should have that kind of conversation.

And you're right fire does beat ice but still you're missing that Inaho made calculations, he checked how they get frozen, how long it takes etc. Sure you say you might have thought of the same idea but would you think it through and calculate how many shots are needed, the detonation time to ensure it doesn't get frozen and you with it, which speed you need to go at and the distance between shots? Because if you're off on even one of those then you're most likely dead. I highly doubt any normal gamer would figure that out in that short amount of time, some might have winged it and it might work but Inaho didn't wing it that's probably the difference.

By the way I wouldn't call him a genius, I'd call him cold/level headed and calculating to some that's probably the same thing though.

[KrayZ33]

Nothing excuses why nobody else of those pilots came up with a similar plan

Because they can't do that kind of math during a fight... or anywhere else
He went in there knowing how fast he had to move forward to recieve the "heat-explosion-bonus-buff" from manually fine-tuned custom-setting grenades.
Miscalculations would obviously result in death, either by freezing or due to a grenade
His autism allows him to not only do that, but also to disregard his own safety.

Why do you have a problem with that though? It's such a normal thing in anime, it shouldn't bother anyone who watched more than... 2? Especially since you believe Lelouch was a true "genius"... even though ihis situation was not really that much different from what is happening here.

[MFauli]

So Inaho doing all these absurd calculations in seconds is okay, but Death Note is unrealistic? Okay :P

Yes, I couldnt do these calculations, neither could other pilots. The question then is, why can Inaho? Has it been said that he´s autistic and that´s where his super-math skills stem from? Because otherwise, it´s just bullshit to accept this sort of skills without any doubts. No non-autistic person in reality could do calculations like those required on the fly like that.
If we accept these skills to be true, then Id rather call Inaho a robot, rather than a genius.

And still, the basic idea wasnt special. What made it somewhat special is to pull it off just like that. But then it remains to be question if it´s still genius-behavior or something beyond that.

[KrayZ33]

So Inaho doing all these absurd calculations in seconds is okay, but Death Note is unrealistic? Okay :P

It's not about it being realistic or not. *You* are stupid enough to believe it is possible for everyone (with gaming experience) to do just that, just in case you missed shinta's stealth-flame. *You* fail to see that every other show has the same issues and this is anime.

The question then is, why can Inaho? Has it been said that he´s autistic and that´s where his super-math skills stem from? Because otherwise, it´s just bullshit to accept this sort of skills without any doubts.

I don't know, why is Lelouch considered a genius? Who trained him in warfare? Let's just accept that he is intelligent enough to save Japan... because well... that's the plot.
Why is Light so intelligent and able to help the police to solve several cases, even though they have people with so much more experience etc.? Let's just accept that he's smarter than everyone eles, because otherwise he would get caught 2 episodes later.

What can I say, Inaho is smarter than the rest, that enough is reason enough to believe he can pull off something like this. It's obviously nothing too far fetched, because you would've done the same in Zelda.

[Ryllharu]

i dont know about using grenades, but it should be any person´s normal train of thought: enemy uses freezing attack, we cannot approach him - only solution: unfreeze the path towards the enemy.

And you're right fire does beat ice but still you're missing that Inaho made calculations, he checked how they get frozen, how long it takes etc. Sure you say you might have thought of the same idea but would you think it through and calculate how many shots are needed, the detonation time to ensure it doesn't get frozen and you with it, which speed you need to go at and the distance between shots? Because if you're off on even one of those then you're most likely dead. I highly doubt any normal gamer would figure that out in that short amount of time, some might have winged it and it might work but Inaho didn't wing it that's probably the difference.

Fireheart covered it perfectly. It wasn't that Inaho knew to use grenades to close with the enemy kataphract. It's that he knew how many he would need and the appropriate intervals to fire them. He had to go at X km/h firing grenades at Y meters every Z seconds.


And Inaho isn't even the first character that can do math in his head to accomplish these kinds of feats.

• Ikkyuu Tensai from Ryuugajou Nanana no Maizoukin (timing out the crazy traps)
• Katase Shima & Otoyama Kouta from Stellvia (especially the former).
• Dan JD from Basquash (an idiot through and through who can subconsciously rebound objects, including off surfaces beyond his vision).
• L-elf from Kakumeiki Valvrave
• Edward Wong Hau Pepelu Tivrusky IV from Cowboy Bebop
• Koiso Kenji from Summer Wars (cracking high level encryption with pen and paper)
• Numerous characters from Medaka

[fireheart]

So Inaho doing all these absurd calculations in seconds is okay, but Death Note is unrealistic? Okay :P

Yes, I couldnt do these calculations, neither could other pilots. The question then is, why can Inaho? Has it been said that he´s autistic and that´s where his super-math skills stem from? Because otherwise, it´s just bullshit to accept this sort of skills without any doubts. No non-autistic person in reality could do calculations like those required on the fly like that.
If we accept these skills to be true, then Id rather call Inaho a robot, rather than a genius.

And still, the basic idea wasnt special. What made it somewhat special is to pull it off just like that. But then it remains to be question if it´s still genius-behavior or something beyond that.

You're mixing arguments from different people and throwing them together as if one person said it. IMO it diminishes your arguments since neither KrayZ33 or I mentioned Death Note but you're throwing it around as if we made that statement.

What you're basically saying in your second paragraph is "Why should we accept any genius type/OP character that doesn't have any kind of believable reason for it (that I can accept)?". The short answer is: Because it's fiction. Sure plot armor exists and is applied to Inaho but I sure didn't start watching Aldnoah.Zero because I wanted realistic action/setting/characters/plot. I honestly have no idea what you expected a mecha show were mechs have super powers to be like.

Does it matter that the basic idea wasn't special? Would you accept it more easily if it was some sort of absurdly elaborate plan that no one would have ever thought of?

It wasn't that Inaho knew to use grenades to close with the enemy kataphract. It's that he knew how many he would need and the appropriate intervals to fire them. He had to go at X km/h firing grenades at Y meters every Z seconds.

I should have you summarize all my posts, the point would probably get across way easier that way.

[MFauli]

Would you accept it more easily if it was some sort of absurdly elaborate plan that no one would have ever thought of?

Put very simply, yes.
Since these anime keep getting mentioned: Light and L from Death Note, or Lelouch from Code Geass, were geniuses, because they were capable of thinking up plans outside of anybody´s realm of thinking. And yes, realistically speaking, many of these plans were bullshit, in how far-seeing they were and such. But that´s what made it awesome and exciting to follow. You really got the feeling that these were geniuses that are so far above all other characters, wondering what they´d do next, what exactly their current goal might be.
With Inaho, sans the apparent super-math skills, it´s different. Inaho isn´t really thinking outside of the box. He´s having ideas that, imo, most people would come up with (and I only used videogames as an example btw). His ideas simply aren´t special enough to make me go "Woah!". Now, that still would be okay, you know. A plan is a plan, as long as it works, what else matters? But here arises the problem: The other characters in this anime, including supposedly highly-intelligent military leaders, keep praising Inaho for his ... ?genius?. They act as if their own plans can only ever consist of sending their own pilots out against the enemy, standing there shooting ... and waiting to be killed. Because they dont have any clever ideas.
That is why I´d have preferred the confidence angle: Have other characters come up with similar ideas, but have Inaho is the only one daring to actually do it. Exceptional confidence is better than faw-creativity.

In the end, yes, Inaho is a genius within the world of Aldnoah.Zero. But that, very obviously, isnt saying a whole lot.

[Ryllharu]

If it is absurd, contrived, there is no foreshadowing for it, it is "true genius".
If it is methodical, sensible, and well thought out, it is "bullshit".

I think we're done here.

[Buffalobiian]

That is why I´d have preferred the confidence angle: Have other characters come up with similar ideas, but have Inaho is the only one daring to actually do it. Exceptional confidence is better than faw-creativity.

If you don't try the idea you're dead. That's why everyone else is dead.

Everybody used Inaho's plan to escape the very first absorbing mech. Confidence was not an issue. Coming up with it is.

No one pussies out from an idea when the alternative is death.

[MFauli]

We´ll have to agree to disagree then. I´ll stay with the opinion that Inaho´s idea arent so special that nobody else could come up with, especially other trained military personell, including veterans and leaders.

[KrayZ33]

There are no veterans on Earth's side except for Marito. Each Cataphract is a complete unknown for every soldier on Earth. Knowledge is gained through death.

[fireheart]

Put very simply, yes.
Since these anime keep getting mentioned: Light and L from Death Note, or Lelouch from Code Geass, were geniuses, because they were capable of thinking up plans outside of anybody´s realm of thinking. And yes, realistically speaking, many of these plans were bullshit, in how far-seeing they were and such. But that´s what made it awesome and exciting to follow. You really got the feeling that these were geniuses that are so far above all other characters, wondering what they´d do next, what exactly their current goal might be.
With Inaho, sans the apparent super-math skills, it´s different. Inaho isn´t really thinking outside of the box. He´s having ideas that, imo, most people would come up with (and I only used videogames as an example btw). His ideas simply aren´t special enough to make me go "Woah!". Now, that still would be okay, you know. A plan is a plan, as long as it works, what else matters? But here arises the problem: The other characters in this anime, including supposedly highly-intelligent military leaders, keep praising Inaho for his ... ?genius?. They act as if their own plans can only ever consist of sending their own pilots out against the enemy, standing there shooting ... and waiting to be killed. Because they dont have any clever ideas.
That is why I´d have preferred the confidence angle: Have other characters come up with similar ideas, but have Inaho is the only one daring to actually do it. Exceptional confidence is better than faw-creativity.

In the end, yes, Inaho is a genius within the world of Aldnoah.Zero. But that, very obviously, isnt saying a whole lot.

Looking at the past few pages, no they don't keep getting mentioned, you mention them and others only mention them in reply to you.

I don't really remember any of the plans etc that Light and L did so won't talk about them. Lelouch I do remember though since it was more recent. If I compare Inaho and Lelouch and break down their actions then they're not really that different. Step 1 (Intel): Inaho gathers intel by experimenting himself in midst of battle, Lelouch gains intel through others or by using his geass. Step 2 (Make use of intel): Inaho makes some kind of decision based on what kind of resources he has at his disposal in midst of battle, Lelouch usually spends days or weeks to come up with a plan and useful pawns. Step 3 (Win): Inaho wins (unless plot says otherwise), Lelouch wins (unless plot says otherwise). Honestly if we had access to all the intel that Lelouch had about everything in the city it's hardly impossible for any of us to make a note of what could be used or make counter plans when you have days or weeks to plan.

As Ryllharu says there's no foreshadowing in the things Lelouch does and we get to see some intel (far from everything) -> end result. While with Inaho we get to see every step from intel gathering -> decision -> execution -> end result.

Looking at Lelouchs track record, he's easily swayed by his emotions and doesn't really handle unknown factors/surprises well. Inaho is basically the opposite he's cold and reactive so he can deal with unknown factors/surprises a lot easier and really that's what makes him different from the rest in the show. Another thing to keep in mind is that most of Inahos fights are 1v1 while Lelouchs usually fight by moving troops around.

Finally a quote from Rider in F/Z: "Using a simple method to accomplish something impressive far outshines using a complex method to achieve the same thing." honestly I agree with this quote, why make anything needlessly complicated if you can achieve it through more simple means?

Edit: By the way your idea about putting napalm all over the place probably wouldn't work. It saps the molecular motion of everything within 1 km radius. If you drop the napalm to make a path the whole path would get frozen at the same time and from what Inaho gathered the grenades won't make it past 50 m without being completely frozen. Having burning napalm rain down into his field and travel 1 km? Seems very unlikely that it'd even make it to the ground since he could stop chemical reactions as proven by the batteries. So unless you have any other ideas you'd probably be dead now (For the record if it was me I'd probably already be dead).

[Ryllharu]

HS-S02E02



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What the fuck is this "wind" that they keep referring to?

The satellite belt is in LEO, there is no solar wind. Even if it was the solar wind, it wouldn't affect their shots much at all. They follow the curvature of the earth thanks to gravity. Intercepting objects is something humanity has done since very early on in the space race. The Russians have had to do it by eyeballing it.

It should be an easy calculation for their kataphract's onboard computers to handle and compensate for.

[Buffalobiian]

What the fuck is this "wind" that they keep referring to?

The 'wind' refers to the gravitational forces within the satellite belt that is supposedly altering the projectiles' trajectory.

Slaine's mech's power is pre-cognition? That's.. handy.

[lelouch]

If I compare Inaho and Lelouch and break down their actions then they're not really that different.

Yes they are. Lelouch is 100% strategy. Inaho is 100% tactics.

[Buffalobiian]

Yes they are. Lelouch is 100% strategy. Inaho is 100% tactics.

Lelouch is kind of both. Strategy = What are we trying to accomplish. Tactics = How do we it.

[lelouch]

Lelouch is kind of both. Strategy = What are we trying to accomplish. Tactics = How do we it.

No, what you're trying to accomplish is called a goal. Strategy is the high-level ahead-of-time planning. Tactics is real-time analytics and on-the-go planning.

[Buffalobiian]

Victory is your goal.

Choosing the path you take (economic, military, cultural = if we're to take a Civilisation view), and therefore choosing your battles is your strategy. That's 'what' you're trying to accomplish. (Victory as the overall endpoint is a given).

Winning those battles is tactics.

If fighting consisted of a single act, no further subdivision would be needed. However, it consists of a greater or lesser number of single acts, each complete in itself, which... are called "engagements". This gives rise to the completely different activity of planning and executing these engagements themselves, and of coordinating each of them with the others in order to further the object of the war. One has been called tactics, and the other strategy... According to our classification, then, tactics teaches the use of armed forces in the engagement; strategy, the use of engagements for the object of the war.

http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/Dunn.htm

How you organise your troops, use the lay of the land and call our when/what to shoot is all tactics.

Deciding that you'll win the war by winning over the princess, or by splitting royal family members - that's strategy.

All levels require prediction and prior planning. The difference is in the overall scale. When Lelouch sits at the top of his order and directs his units, that's strategy (scale-wise it's probably operational, but we'll leave that out). When Lelouch is one mech out of 5 and tells them how to move and which wall to shoot through, that's tactics. He does both.

I agree that Inaho takes no place in strategy. He is a soldier who isn't even officially in command of his unit. He just wins the fight he's told to.