Naruto Shippuuden 339

[DarthEnderX]

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Aww, touching ending, despite the fact that I'm sure Sasuke will still be an asshole(I mean, he has to be right? Tobi can't carry the villain card for the rest of the series by himself. Right?)

So Susano'o gets to be as strong as a Tailed Beast eh? I guess that's to be expected. If Sasuke is going to be any kind of rival for Naruto in the future, he's going to need something that can go head to head with Kurama.

Madara, you was kickass while you lasted. Even the five Kage were no match.


So now it's just down to Tobi. And he doesn't even have his Pains anymore. He really needs to capture the 8-tails, and fast.

[lilphatboi88]

Why did Sensui or what's his name give Itachi his eye?

[DarthEnderX]

Because he thought Itachi could find a use for it I guess.

Remember that he dies pretty much right after that(either suicide, or he has Itachi do it for him). So he has no use for it.

Maybe he though Itachi would use it to get an Eternal Mangekyo.

[Buffalobiian]

Because he thought Itachi could find a use for it I guess.

Remember that he dies pretty much right after that(either suicide, or he has Itachi do it for him). So he has no use for it.

Maybe he though Itachi would use it to get an Eternal Mangekyo.

He also knows that people are after him, while people don't necessarily know Itachi's got his eye. Itachi would also be able to protect/hide it for him. He can't do that himself since he'd be blind.

[Kraco]

Itachi was the best character of this story, no doubt of that. It's easy to understand why Sasuke admired him so greatly, especially since Sasuke's personality and charisma (powers aside, he has plenty of those) are nowhere near Itachi's level. It's all made only more interesting by the cold fact that no matter how you look at Itachi, he was far from a winner.

[DarthEnderX]

Yep. He was cool and all but he pretty made about all the worst choices possible.


And he still needs to transfer the Totsuka blade and the Yata Mirror to Sasuke before he crumbles!

[Buffalobiian]

Yep. He was cool and all but he pretty made about all the worst choices possible.

We all like him because he's the best ninja we've ever seen here, besides maybe Danzo.

He "lost" because Naruto is telling us that (traditional) ninjas aren't the way to go. Naruto himself sucks as a ninja.

[DarthEnderX]

We all like him because he's the best ninja we've ever seen here, besides maybe Danzo.

He "lost" because Naruto is telling us that (traditional) ninjas aren't the way to go. Naruto himself sucks as a ninja.

The lesson you're meant to draw from the fact that the best ninjas are all the worst people is...ninjas are shitty. They're murdering low-lifes with a thin vaneer of pop culture coolness. And that being a "good" ninja shouldn't be anyone's goal in the first place.

[Buffalobiian]

The lesson you're meant to draw from the fact that the best ninjas are all the worst people is...ninjas are shitty. They're murdering low-lifes with a thin vaneer of pop culture coolness. And that being a "good" ninja shouldn't be anyone's goal in the first place.

I take it that ninjas solve problems using the most efficient way possible. Sometimes that involves killing people. Naruto is an idealist who is somehow able to make it into a reality. In a show it's okay, but in real life the opposite is true. We rever the efficient and the logical while looking down on the dreamers. Dreamers who can make their dream come true are on in a million.

Another way that I think about them is that an idealist (the ones that make it through) changes the world. The realists keep it running.

[Kraco]

He "lost" because Naruto is telling us that (traditional) ninjas aren't the way to go. Naruto himself sucks as a ninja.

No, he lost, irreversibly, when he couldn't find the third path when he had to choose from murdering his own people, save one, or dying with all of them. While Naruto is a hopeless idealist, what happened in Konoha was still a giant tragedy and a shining example of why Naruto's message is better than Danzo's. You can't save your people by murdering a big chunk of them. Such thinking is a paradox.

[DarthEnderX]

I take it that ninjas solve problems using the most efficient way possible. Sometimes that involves killing people. Naruto is an idealist who is somehow able to make it into a reality. In a show it's okay, but in real life the opposite is true.

Uh, no. That's not even remotely true in real life. The most efficient way of solving most problems in real life would also be with murder. It's also the least acceptable.

[Buffalobiian]

, no. That's not even remotely true in real life. The most efficient way of solving most problems in real life would also be with murder. It's also the least acceptable.

Our legal system makes it such that it isn't the most efficient way.

No, he lost, irreversibly, when he couldn't find the third path when he had to choose from murdering his own people, save one, or dying with all of them. While Naruto is a hopeless idealist, what happened in Konoha was still a giant tragedy and a shining example of why Naruto's message is better than Danzo's. You can't save your people by murdering a big chunk of them. Such thinking is a paradox.

As far as actions go, they're not too different to the pragmatist we all seem to love.

The question is, how hard should you try to find the third path while your options tick away?

[Kraco]

The question is, how hard should you try to find the third path while your options tick away?

How hard were they ticking away? Let's not forget Danzo actually came to an Uchiha begging him to slay the rest of the Uchiha. That alone tells the man was unsure he could have pulled it off without massive losses by other means. The huge weakness of creating a super criminal, no, actually two, in the process is also a proof of how Danzo was almost grasping at straws. He wouldn't have bothered to approach Itachi if he had better solutions available.

[Buffalobiian]

How hard were they ticking away? Let's not forget Danzo actually came to an Uchiha begging him to slay the rest of the Uchiha. That alone tells the man was unsure he could have pulled it off without massive losses by other means. The huge weakness of creating a super criminal, no, actually two, in the process is also a proof of how Danzo was almost grasping at straws. He wouldn't have bothered to approach Itachi if he had better solutions available.

Exactly. He went for the best option available instead of going "Wait, don't do anything. Let me think of an all-win solution that I don't have yet... but I might if you give me time. I need time."

For some, the best option wasn't good enough. For him, it was all he had. Naruto would have gambled for something less sure and pull through with his main character charisma and what not. He doesn't always do it either.

Remember how he promised Sakura that he'd rescue Sasuke but failed and apologised? Danzo and Itachi chose their ways because they thought a failed apology wouldn't cut it.

I don't think Danzo would make a good Hokage. He makes for a damn good shadow-Hokage though, doing all the dirty work that the Hokage's charisma and diplomacy couldn't take care of.

We keep saying that Danzo created Sasuke the criminal. Let's not forget that Sasuke becoming a criminal wasn't set in stone, nor was it imminent. Meanwhile, Uchiha making a bloodbath out of Konoha and turning it from a civil war to a global one was.

[Kraco]

Danzo wouldn't have made a good hokage. And actually he didn't, for the short time he was because he got himself promptly discredited. He was never interested in saving Konoha, he was only interested in saving his own image of Konaha. That image didn't include Uchiha because he couldn't even dream of controlling them. Who knows who would have been next after Uchiha if he had had his way with things. Danzou was happiest playing people like tools in the shadows, throwing them away like disposable commodities when they weren't anymore useful for his Konoha. That might have worked during the great ninja wars, but now they were living a period of relative peace, aside from super criminals harassing the village every now and then. The people looked for and deserved better than a paranoid maniac with a knack for genocide.

He's guilty of creating rogue Sasuke as well by allowing Sasuke to live. In his greed and arrogance Danzo actually thought he could control a juvenile Uchiha. Perhaps he dreamed of making another Itachi out of Sasuke; a tool who would murder even his own family when ordered.

Based on all the history we have of late learned, it looks like Uchiha was constantly fighting among themselves as much as against any outsiders. Thus problems brewing in that clan's village would have hardly been a surprise to anybody. They all probably had more or less experience of it from the past. But somehow they had settled down for a time, at least, because Sasuke had been living such a happy childhood until Danzo put his plans into motion.

[DarthEnderX]

^ all of that.

On top of that, there's the fact that all of the asshole ninja problems that "require" asshole ninja solutions were caused by ninjas being assholes in the first place.

It's hard to support the idea that the "efficient ninja" approach is the best solution when the problems wouldn't exist at all without others taking "efficient ninja" approaches in the past.

Basically, everything that's wrong with the Naruto world can be traced back to people doing things the "deception and murder" ninja way in the past. So forgive me if I don't give a character props for being awesome at the thing that causes every problem in the series.

[Kraco]

It's hard to support the idea that the "efficient ninja" approach is the best solution when the problems wouldn't exist at all without others taking "efficient ninja" approaches in the past.

Basically, everything that's wrong with the Naruto world can be traced back to people doing things the "deception and murder" ninja way in the past. So forgive me if I don't give a character props for being awesome at the thing that causes every problem in the series.

There are some exceptions. Orochimaru is one of them. Unless my memory fails me, at some point he simply started to get crooked with no specific reason. He was well respected in Konoha, and I don't think anybody caused him such harm that it would have pushed him to become the monster he did. He simply grew that way, being the snake he was. In time he did cause such grief to others, though, in the traditional ninja way.

[DarthEnderX]

There are some exceptions. Orochimaru is one of them. Unless my memory fails me, at some point he simply started to get crooked with no specific reason.

They kind of implied that his parents deaths lead to him becoming obsesses with the idea of immortality.

Given the setting, his parents probably died of asshole ninja related happenings.

[Buffalobiian]

I agree with Kraco about Danzo making a crappy Hokage, as I've said as well. What I also said was that he was there to take care of all the shit that the idealistic Hokage (Sarutobi) couldn't deal with, such as the Uchiha incident.

Letting Sasuke live was actually a requirement in making Itachi act. Recall that he wanted to settle this before the outside world knew about Konoha's problem and launched an attack. His leverage over Itachi was that by killing the Uchiha he could save lives.. but most importantly for him the life of his brother. As Itachi left, he warned that if Danzo hurt Konoha or his brother he'd reveal everything.

On top of that, there's the fact that all of the asshole ninja problems that "require" asshole ninja solutions were caused by ninjas being assholes in the first place.

Basically, the whole hate goes in circles thing. Naruto tries to take all the hate on by himself. How many other people can do such a thing and succeed?

And for all those people who can't, what are they supposed to do? Let the hate from others destroy them, or postphone it till later? Danzo had the right idea here by killing everybody in the Uchiha, even women and children. The only catch was that in order for it to happen he had to let Sasuke live. It wasn't as if he chose this way knowing it'd breed hate 10 years later. Tobi was an unknown.

[DarthEnderX]

And for all those people who can't, what are they supposed to do? Let the hate from others destroy them, or postphone it till later?

Better that then propping up a system built around tragedy by creating more tragedy.

The simple third solution is this...the coup is the result of them being marginalized to the point to where they want to take over the village. So you let them. Let them be in control. And once they no longer feel backed into the corner, you have all the time in the world to work things out with them. To, like Itachi said, change them from the inside.

But the choices Danzou and the others were making wasn't about what was actually best for the village, it's about maintaining their power at any cost.

Danzo had the right idea here by killing everybody in the Uchiha, even women and children. The only catch was that in order for it to happen he had to let Sasuke live. It wasn't as if he chose this way knowing it'd breed hate 10 years later. Tobi was an unknown.

That's just it. Even if he had gotten Sasuke to, his stupid plan still wouldn't have worked. As, not only do you have unknown Uchiha's causing greater problems than the Uchiha clan ever did, but the biggest threat currently comes from a DEAD Uchiha. So wiping them out isn't even a guarantee of success.

If Tobi had really been smart, he would have taken those 50 Sharingan's he'd collected, and let Kabuto ressurrect the entire Uchiha clan under their control.