Happy Birthday, MFauli!

[Animeniax]

Sorry but that doesn't look to be the most reputable of sites, more like a cheap sales site for some company.

Here's something from Harvard Medical:

Soap and water don't kill germs; they work by mechanically removing them from your hands. Running water by itself does a pretty good job of germ removal, but soap increases the overall effectiveness by pulling unwanted material off the skin and into the water.

and an article from The Atlantic that discusses use of just water, with soap, and antibacterial soap. It seems proper scrubbing technique (mostly time spent) is the most important factor in removing bacteria:

regular soap simply causes bacteria to loosen their grip on your hands, to be rinsed away

About the gf, let's try to stay on topic. Happy birthday MFauli!

[Sapphire]

I see your Harvard/Atlanta article and raise you a few from the NIH.

(1) (2) (3)

These are all saying a way more complicated version of:

The surfactants in the bacterial cell wall are in two layers, with all of the oil loving ends of the molecules facing inwards between the two layers. Adding soap and scrubbing allows the molecules in the two layers to turn inside-out, and this allows the bacteria to leak, and soap to get inside, where it can harm the bacterium’s enzymes that it needs to live.

Those articles seem to be written by reporters more than scientists (I would fire whoever wrote those articles). D:. The Atlantic article seems to be about people who just don't know how to use soap (yes, this is possible lol). I'll look for simpler to understand articles (that are still scientifically valid).

Informative page - If you trust it! I guess it's easy to know what to believe if you already have the foundation.

Again, simply killing bacteria isn't the only issue. You didn't answer the GF question! Why avoid!

[Animeniax]

The authors of those abstracts are purposefully obfuscating the subject matter with their big science words. Though they appear to basically say the same thing, that the soap disrupts the bacteria's ability to cling to your skin, not that they kill the bacteria.

You didn't answer the GF question! Why avoid!

Because the topic at hand is actually very informative and interesting, so let's stay on topic.

[Sapphire]

The authors of those abstracts are purposefully obfuscating the subject matter with their big science words. Though they appear to basically say the same thing, that the soap disrupts the bacteria's ability to cling to your skin, not that they kill the bacteria.

Eh? Okay, let me sort it for you in order of difficulty.

Super Easy (Sapphi):

...soap is very very important for killing bacteria. It's a combination of the high pH and hot water that does it but soap is by no means irrelevant! Think of it like this. Soap kills the bacteria by dissolving it's cell walls (for the most part unless we're talking about super bacteria that survives in ridiculous conditions), the sponge scrapes off the dead bacteria carcasses and the water helps dissolve the soap and various other polar elements stuck on your body...

Easy (Reddit):

They're just lucky bacteria. Soap is a detergent. A common detergent in handwashing soap is sodium dodecyl sulfate. SDS is used to kill because it has both polar and nonpolar properties. Thus, it is able to get into the membrane of a cell, which itself as a polar and nonpolar end (and lined up, you get a nonpolar core and a polar exteriors to the membrane's envelope.) SDS gets in there and causes the disruption and dispersion of the lipids, meaning the cell spills its guts. Cells don't live once they spill their guts.

Medium (Sci-toys):

The surfactants in the bacterial cell wall are in two layers, with all of the oil loving ends of the molecules facing inwards between the two layers. Adding soap and scrubbing allows the molecules in the two layers to turn inside-out, and this allows the bacteria to leak, and soap to get inside, where it can harm the bacterium’s enzymes that it needs to live.

Hard (NIH):

Detergents with strongly hydrophilic heads (SDS and beta-D-dodecylmaltoside) only very slowly solubilize liposomal membranes and do not cause liposome fusion. These properties are correlated with a slow bilayer flip-flop. Our data suggest that detergent solubilization proceeds by a combination of 1) a transbilayer attack, following flip-flop of detergent molecules across the lipid bilayer, and 2) extraction of membrane components directly by detergent micelles.

I think I give up after this~ @___@ By all means, keep having a stinky booty all day, this is Amurrica, you're free to do so! No judgement here, us zannen na otaku have to stick together. Though my suggestion is if you aren't prepared to get down and dirty in a science argument by being willing to read the actual research (not sketchy oversimplified reporter crap), don't have one. Though if you don't have the foundation, I can see why it's easy to believe the oversimplified garbage... that's a problem in society! D: D: Again, bacteria isn't the ONLY issue resolved with soap... I am not disagreeing with you about loosening oil/non-polarish substances that was in one of the first posts I made.

To add an important disclaimer, as Buff said, it isn't actually necessary (and is actually a bad idea for reasons I won't get into) to kill 100% of the bacteria on your body. I can't get into why if you won't accept the premise that soap mechanistically kills bacteria. I didn't even get into pH and optimal timing. But this is really more of a regulated "disruption" of the levels of bacteria (as seen by brushing your teeth and preventing cavities/plaque). What do you believe toothpaste does?

To bring everyone else into the discussion, what is your daily hygiene regimen? Do ya'll brush your tongues? (I know a lot of people who don't do this).

Shinta and Haru strike me as neat freaks.

Because the topic at hand is actually very informative and interesting, so let's stay on topic.

MFauli's bday? Wuss.

[MFauli]

i love this thread so much. best birthday present, for sure. (i actually got a water boiler, might be a tad bit better :>)

[Animeniax]

You mean a pot for your stove, or something more sophisticated?

[darkshadow]

If you don't brush your tongue, you shouldn't be allowed to talk to people.

[Ryllharu]

i love this thread so much. best birthday present, for sure. (i actually got a water boiler, might be a tad bit better :>)

Do you mean like a hotpot, or some kind of on-demand heater for a sink or bathroom? If hotpot, what kind of functionality does it have? I'm rather fond of the one I have, which holds water at a few presets for different types of tea or vacuum press coffee.

To bring everyone else into the discussion, what is your daily hygiene regimen? Do ya'll brush your tongues? (I know a lot of people who don't do this).

Shinta and Haru strike me as neat freaks.

I've been summoned via a slight that was directed at my character!

I use soap of course, and like any red-blooded American, needlessly shampoo every day (tl;dr you don't really have to, the more you do the greasier it gets). I use a squeegee on the walls because cleaning is much easier if you do. It works in the military, it works for Ryllharu!

I avoid antibacterial soaps for the obvious reason of not promoting resistances in bacterial strains, however inconclusive those claims are.

I brush my teeth twice a day (including the tongue!), floss once a day, and use a fluoride rinse once a day. Healthy teeth are pivotal to prolonged quality of life and social situations!

I shave every other day because it gives me a better one.

If soap isn't available before I eat or when using a public bathroom, I follow the happy birthday rule (sing the happy birthday song in your head while scrubbing hands under water).

I wouldn't say neat freak, maybe "clean." I only use hand sanitizers when I lose power for days.


EDIT 2:

You're never going to kill all the bacteria on and in your skin, ever. Humans are walking, talking arcologies of microbiological colonies. There are varieties that are uniquely adapted to every single type of skin you've got (dry and cool, warm and wet, etc). They're also helping to keep you safe due to overcrowding and critical mass. They "crowd out" far more harmful bacteria.

[Animeniax]

I used to use shampoo everyday, until I was informed it aggravates oily hair and face conditions by stripping away oils with every shampooing, causing your skin to overcompensate by creating even more oil. So now I only shampoo 2 or 3 times a week. I run very warm to hot water to give my hair a good cleaning with every shower. The other result is that I'm still on the same bottle of shampoo for over a year.

[shinta|hikari]

@Sapph - Well, sort of. I wash my hands maybe 20 times a day or so, using antibacterial soap. If hand sanitizer is available before a meal, I will always use it. I avoid touching public doorknobs, especially for toilets, unless I have no choice or a paper towel on hand.

I used to shower twice a day because of the climate here, but since I started working, I don't really get exposed to the sun anymore so I do it once a day. I shampoo every time, even if I have very short hair.

I brush my teeth twice a day, and I brush my tongue gently each time to keep my palate fresh and clean for good food.

I used to be a bit less obsessive, but after getting hit by food poisoning/stomach flu a couple of times I became a lot more careful.

[Animeniax]

And sadly no matter how hygienic you are, avoiding food poisoning will be pretty much impossible unless you grow, clean, and cook everything yourself.

I think your regimen of compulsive cleaning probably leaves your immune system weakened. It's better to let your body have some contact with germs so it can fight them off and strength itself.

[shinta|hikari]

You can't really have a weak immune system due to that reason while living here. Trying to be clean as possible still leaves enough bacteria to keep your immune system on guard. I blame the public transportation system and general lack of hygiene for this. Cash and coins are probably the dirtiest things one can touch here, and people don't wash their hands after going to the toilet (or doing anything else, for that matter).

Swine flu and some cases of dengue fever weren't even recognized by people who contracted them because they got better in a few days. They just assumed it is the usual cold or flu.

Well, I am pretty sure I have a weaker immune system than the children swimming in the river with garbage and feces floating around or frolicking in the sewage drains during heavy rains and floods, but I don't want that kind of immunity.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm not sure if the weak exposure idea has much validity. It's more popular in explaining why we have more allergies in 1st world countries though.

[shinta|hikari]

Rather than weak exposure, the people have already been infected by similar if not the same illness before, making them more resistant, or even immune.

[Animeniax]

The more weak toxins that your body encounters, the more it can fight them without debilitating you, which builds up your immune system and helps you for the most part to be able to ignore the weaker germs that make others sick, as well as get you through a major illness. I don't know if this is exactly how it works but it makes sense.

I think it's the same with food. When I was in 3rd world Asian countries, I was warned against eating street food because my system wasn't used to the germs. Of course the locals can eat it without problem, they've been eating it for their entire lives. That's why there's a thing called "traveler's diarrhea," people eat food containing contaminants their body isn't used to, so it makes them sick.

[Sapphire]

@Sapph - Well, sort of. I wash my hands maybe 20 times a day or so, using antibacterial soap. If hand sanitizer is available before a meal, I will always use it. I avoid touching public doorknobs, especially for toilets, unless I have no choice or a paper towel on hand.

Holy shit! 20 times a day is sort of!!?

I understand the doornobs (and prolly poles) thing. I usually use my clothes to open greasy things like that, lol.

[shinta|hikari]

Every time I go to piss, and every time I handle food. That number can go higher when I cook, because I worry about the health of people eating food I prepare.

[MFauli]

DEAR GOD, A NORMAL WATER COOKING DEVICE, SO I CAN MAKE TEA WITH IT.

damn, how did this develop into a discussion about immune systems. lol

[shinta|hikari]

Did you just get a custom title..?

If I remember correctly, that is based on rep.

The world is ending.

[Sapphire]

SHUT UP MFAULI