Gin no Saji

[MFauli]

. For him to suddenly change everything he believes in because he saw a cute piglet, that would be shallow.

i have to absolutely disagree with this sentiment. changing your whole attitude because you finally got to see "behind the scenes" is a perfectly valid reason to do so. to make a godwin-comparison: it´s as if youre calling a nazi shallow, who just stumbled into a KZ and saw how jews are being treated/killed and thus decides to be against nazism. i dont hink so.

also, yes, we´d still need to kill animals even if it wasnt for food. HOWEVER, that is the point: we *need* to kill for certain stuff. food is not part of that. That´s like those crazy american gun-lovers who, when approached with statistics about gun murder cases, tell you "then why not ban cars, too? Many more people die in car accidents every day than being shot by guns". Yeah, except we need cars for means of transportations, but we don´t need guns.

regarding hachiken, again, i´d be okay with him eating meat, if he could just come to the decision that Butadon is a special case. Then buy Butadon, keep him as a pet, and maybe find a non-lethal use for him, like making him a truffle pig.

[Buffalobiian]

Skip to the bubble for the important bit

@DDragon: I take your point about vampires, in that we think we rule the world. (vampires may think otherwise).

I also agree with your point about us still killing animals even if humans became vegetarians, which is largely why I didn't respond to it last time you posted.

What I meant in my previous post, is that this show (Hachiken rather) has only brought up taste as such an argument. As you guys said, it may not be taking this stance very seriously and thus doesn't bother to go into everything else surrounding the issue.


---------
Since we brought it up though, I'd like to share my thoughts on it, which MFauli has covered somewhat: Just because we kill animals for some "higher" needs such as research doesn't automatically give us the clearance to go "all the way" and kill them for whatever reason we desire. (That's my stance anyway. Different opinions will exist).

You have uses that result in medical treatment/health, you have uses where they convenience us.. and at the other end of the spectrum we have uses that merely entertain us. How someone views the sanctity of life on that scale varies with each person. When you kill for entertainment (would you count taste as entertainment?), that shows how much weight you put on the life you took.

That's a different ethical debate altogether though, so I'll talk specifically about the Butadon dilemma.


----------Just read this part if you want my main point---------------

The issue is as you guys say:

-Hachiken saw a cute pig and gave it a name. He feels close to it now, as if it was his pet. Those feelings are superimposed onto other animals now, so that when he's killing, skinning or eating them he becomes conflicted.

His confliction (aka problem/dilemma) is: "When I eat this pork, it's like I'm eating Butadon. If I love him like I do, I shouldn't be eating him". He has formed a link between Butadon and pork in general. Eating pork feels like eating Butadon.

To me, he has 3 ways of dealing with this problem:

1) Accept the link and his love and become a vegetarian. "Meat reminds me of the Butadon that I love, and I don't eat pets. I'll become a vegetarian instead."

2) Remove the link between Butadon and pork. "I love Butadon like a pet, but these pigs aren't Butadon." Having Butadon as a pet and continuing to eat meat is consistent with this line of thought.

3) Degrade his feelings such that it makes it okay to eat pets. "I love Pork Bowl as a pet.. but hey, it's okay to eat the pets I love because they taste good".

Hachiken has given up on (1).. essentially in favour of (3). He hasn't considered or approached (2) yet.
It is the fact that he is tossing up between taste and "pet love" equally that causes me discomfort. I know he is not physically eating Butadon, but the whole dilemma (and why he's in such a state) stems from the fact that he's projecting those feelings onto livestock in general. If he is to consider them differently, then he has either taken approach (2) and shouldn't be worrying... or he no longer loves Butadon like a pet and should have no worries already.

I also acknowledge(ed in a previous post) that perhaps I am doing the same thing as Hachiken at the moment (eating meat because it tastes good even when I think that they're "lovely" animals that probably shouldn't deserve such a fate), so it's not like he's alone as some "bad, slaughtering figure".

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More generally, do you guys feel that because an issue is used for comedy relief or is only touched slightly that it doesn't deserve such discussion?

[Kraco]

More generally, do you guys feel that because an issue is used for comedy relief or is only touched slightly that it doesn't deserve such discussion?

I don't think this show uses anything as mere comedy relief. Even Tokiwa's stunts have their reason because people like that really exist.

The Pork Bowl question is a step for Hachiken to get used to the agricultural life (or get forward in life in more abstract terms). I guess it turned out to be his rite of passage. While I agree with Ryll on the questionable wisdom of blowing it out of proportion and I doubt Hachiken ever really considered becoming a vegetarian, like Dark Dragon pretty much said, but at the same time there'd be some very deep moral discrepancy about growing pigs (or equivalent) for the meat, yet refusing to eat meat yourself (unless for medical reasons). In that sense I'd say this issue's not about Hachiken becoming a vegetarian or not, but just an aspect of the real question that bothers him: What he's going to do with his life.

What comes to Mikage, there's no doubting she's a bit dense, but on the other hand I believe MFauli is correct: She's strained by the conflict between her dreams and what she feels are her responsibilities that she can't be bothered to think of romantic thoughts. In fact she might be actively refusing such thoughts. If she feels like she heading toward a dead-end, I wouldn't blame her for not wanting to take a guy with her to it.

[MFauli]

I just hope that Hachiken meets a decision at long last when Butadon is killed (or saved). It has been a running theme ever since the anus-eggs, but now it´s becoming annoying, imo at least. No more jumping between the ropes, decide what´s it gotta be. I agree with Buff´s 3 options, and hope it´ll be #2. Would make the most sense and keep our main character likeable, yet reasonable.

also: yes, or simpler put; Mikage is this anime´s Sasuke. :/

[shinta|hikari]

I don't agree with Mikage being Sasuke. That would mean that she deserves to die right now. She is just a bit cold, nothing that warrants that.

I think Hachiken is trying and should go for the fourth option. 4) Butadon is not a pet, I should be able to eat him (or allow him to be slaughtered at least) if I want a future in raising farm animals, not because he tastes good and I wanna eat him.

Don't forget that realizing something is delicious is not just value for Hachiken eating it himself. It made him realize the value of the animals as food in general. It makes people happy to eat them because they are delicious. It is not something as trivial as "This tastes great, I wanna eat more." It is more like, "So this flavor can make someone feel happy, I now understand why people kill and eat meat."

[Buffalobiian]

I don't agree with Mikage being Sasuke. That would mean that she deserves to die right now. She is just a bit cold, nothing that warrants that.

I think Hachiken is trying and should go for the fourth option. 4) Butadon is not a pet, I should be able to eat him (or allow him to be slaughtered at least) if I want a future in raising farm animals, not because he tastes good and I wanna eat him.

Don't forget that realizing something is delicious is not just value for Hachiken eating it himself. It made him realize the value of the animals as food in general. It makes people happy to eat them because they are delicious. It is not something as trivial as "This tastes great, I wanna eat more." It is more like, "So this flavor can make someone feel happy, I now understand why people kill and eat meat."

Yeah, the "4th" option would work as well. The reason I limited to 3 above was that they were the 3 available options given his current dilemma,

or he no longer loves Butadon like a pet and should have no worries already.

As for Mikage, I found that she was really quick to deny that anything happened over the summer when she was asked by her senpai. Either she was aware of Hachiken's feelings and just wanted to deny them, or it's her usual response to her senpai's (frequent?) pestering questions.

[Buffalobiian]

HS - Episode 10

[David75]

I raised it, I loved it.
But since I can eat it and it tastes good, it's alright.

End of the internal fight.

[Kraco]

Mikage was awfully quick to drop the chalkboard eraser when she overheard the rumours. She must harbour some real feelings she's only suppressing.

This was the only realistic outcome of the Pork Bowl question. The other choice would have been to transfer from the animal side to the plant side or drop out of the school entirely. However, I have a feeling Hachiken would rather eat meat than leave Mikage behind, even if nothing else had stopped him.

[MFauli]

i feel such a crass disconnect to what i just saw. is this japanese people being less emotional about animal life in general? it comes off as so incredibly shallow how being tasty solves all moral dilemma. there was nothing clever about the outcome, no twist or anything. just tasty being the ultimate excuse.

at least we have confirmation that mikage cares about hachiken in more ways than just being friends.

[shinta|hikari]

I think Hachiken is trying and should go for the fourth option. 4) Butadon is not a pet, I should be able to eat him (or allow him to be slaughtered at least) if I want a future in raising farm animals, not because he tastes good and I wanna eat him.

I guess I was on the mark.

[Buffalobiian]

The thing that made it flow was that Butadon ended up walking up the ramp on its own. Now imagine if it tugged at Hachiken's pants, which meant Hachiken had to send him off instead of just watching him go.

That would have been interesting to watch.

Reading shinta's quote closely, this problem could be looked at in two ways:

Whether Hachiken could eat Butadon, or whether Hachiken should eat Butadon. Guess Hachiken himself settled with could and managed to do it.

[Kraco]

Whether Hachiken could eat Butadon, or whether Hachiken should eat Butadon. Guess Hachiken himself settled with could and managed to do it.

I disagree. He went for should. Otherwise he wouldn't have bought the meat. If it was just could, he would have gotten away with just watching Pork Bowl go and disappear, with slim chances of ever seeing a trace of its meat. However, by buying the meat, he doomed himself to facing all aspects of the reality of raising farm animals, from the beginning till the end. In other words he manned up, toughened himself, and above all didn't run. After all, he has decided he's done with running. Becoming a vegetarian or other shit like that would be fleeing the reality for him, considering the school he's attending.

It's hard to say how much the farm-born students ever individually considered this whole issue, but it's possible Hachiken has taken responsibility on a much deeper level than most of those who just grew up to that style of life.

[Buffalobiian]

I disagree. He went for should. Otherwise he wouldn't have bought the meat. If it was just could, he would have gotten away with just watching Pork Bowl go and disappear, with slim chances of ever seeing a trace of its meat. However, by buying the meat, he doomed himself to facing all aspects of the reality of raising farm animals, from the beginning till the end. In other words he manned up, toughened himself, and above all didn't run. After all, he has decided he's done with running. Becoming a vegetarian or other shit like that would be fleeing the reality for him, considering the school he's attending.

Whether or not he bought the meat doesn't differentiate between could/should. It just gives him the opportunity to test it out instead of avoiding the issue and never finding an answer to it. Whether he could eat Butadon tests whether or not he could physically withstand eating the meat (either by disconnecting his feelings while he eats, or somehow being able to hold both values equally yet consciously), while the question of whether he should tests whether he thinks eating Butadon is right or wrong.

I suppose from the beginning it never was a question of should for him, since I can only remember him thinking "I can't eat that".

As for Hachiken vs other students, the other kids never considered (or at least no longer consider) animals as beings that deserved some sort of consideration beyond their market value. They consider livestock property that were raised for the purpose of being sold for profit and therefore should be nothing more. Like slaves.

Hachiken sees them as fellow living beings and was thus confronted with the dilemma of killing/destroying them.

[Buffalobiian]

HS - Episode 11

[MFauli]

hm, im hesitant to comment, since that serious expression on hachiken´s dad´s face could be entirely deveiving. let´s say it is what it looks like. so hachiken´s dad is some stubborn hardass who doesn´t care about a son that doesn´t follow a "proper life". kinda know that feeling depending on how much drama this anime wants to achieve, the bacon will either cause his dad to understand, or his negative reaction will cause a complete break up with his son. kinda interesting.

im kind of disappointed how easily hachiken gave away the bacon. thought itd be more precious to him.

[MFauli]

no episode this week? :/

[Ryllharu]

Rather than spout off a random line of vitriol, I actually can't blame you for thinking this, considering the season-ending shot is "To Be Continued..." and is fairly abrupt.

Series restarts in January.

[MFauli]

ugh, so it really was the last episode ...

yeah, i didnt see last episode as a "last episode", rather as a build-up for a dramatic final episode. oh well ...

[shinta|hikari]

Rather than spout off a random line of vitriol,

This was unexpected, considering who you are talking to.

I actually got neg repped for inviting him to other threads.