Deep chapter, really good.
defeated by a clone. yeah, sure.
I guess you could say Hashirama has a woody for Madara.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I am waiting for the 4th to Yellow-Flash his ass outta there!
assertnfailure (7:40:03 PM): dude....your posts are a bunch of nonsense
Yeah he must still have seals active somewhere.Originally Posted by iMUSTbeTHEdevil
Wait...I thought the sharingan could differentiate clones? Or is that only shadow clones? Unless I'm thinking of the byakugan.
"You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways."
Only if the clone is a genjutu, I believe. Sharingan cannot differentiate between kage bunshins and other advanced bunshins.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I would have thought it would also depend on the ability of the one making the clone. Two people could use Kage Bunshin, but someone like Kakashi making one and say Konohamaru making one must have a world of difference in terms of quality.
I'm pretty sure they explained far back that kage bunshin is special because it's a forbidden jutsu creating the body and splitting the owner's chakra and THAT'S why sharingan can't distinguish it from the other clones.
Also, a regular bunshin is a ninjutsu, not a genjutsu, and can be differentiated by the sharingan.
Dunno why would a wood bunshin be as effective as a kage bunshin vs Madara. Makes no sense if you ask me.
Come on guys. The shadow clone is a forbidden jutsu because of the risk it poses to the user, i.e. running out of chakra and thereby killing yourself. I believe Yamato went over the many advantages wood clones have over shadow clones quite some time ago, back when 4-tailed was fighting Orochimaru. I believe it was also mentioned somewhere along the way that Hashirama with his wood clones was able to make perfect copies of himself and only Madara was able to see through them, as is mentioned here. I think it was mentioned again back when we had white zetsu hell not too long ago and Naruto with his Uzumaki evil intentions sensing bs was the only one able to tell who the copies were thus the need for him to send a clone of himself to every battlefield.
At this point we should all accept that wood is simply greater than everything else. Which is why Hashirama is regarded as the God of shinobi and everyone from Orochimaru, to Danzo, to Obito and Madara is using his cells.
Last edited by Abdula; Thu, 04-04-2013 at 09:17 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
The only explanation could be then the stabbed Madara is also a clone or a genjutsu projection, considering that he would have seen through Hashirama's technique.
That is what I thought as well, based on the close up of Madara's EMS at the bottom of this page. He probably cast a genjutsu on Hashirama, especially since in their next sequence of attacks he gets stabbed because of a clone and Hashirama from his conversation with Sasuke obviously assumes he killed Madara then but we know that is not when Madara died. That panel is really unnecessary otherwise unless Kishi just wanted to show Madara's EMS again.
Besides we go from a close up of the sharingan in one panel, which Kishimoto did often enough whenever Itachi casts genjutsu on someone, to a close up of the moon in the very next panel. Not to mention Madara telling Hashirama about living in a dream right before that and one can't help but think Tsukiyomi. The infinite Tsukiyomi is Madara's idea anyway and what this entire war is about but who knows. Maybe I'm just reading too much into this and he did just get stabbed through the chest doesn't matter too much either way.
Last edited by Abdula; Thu, 04-04-2013 at 12:25 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
wow you guys are really looking into it too much. There have been many instances where a bunshin was created at the very last second and just swapped/kawarami/whateva
also, madara was not "defeated by a clone" nor is "wood bunshin be as effective as a kage bunshin"
notice how the clone is on the ground and madara is standing?
(then again, of course a wood bunshin is more effective than a kage bunshin like Madara even said himself)
hell he doesn't even have his sharingan activated (error or not) if you really need an explanation
I highly doubt that Madara cast a genjutsu or made a clone, since he stated numerous times how he was defeated and left for dead in this battle, and up until getting shanked in the back, I would hardly say he was defeated.
The evenly-distributed chakra part is why the BYAKUGAN can't distinguish from other clones, not sharingan.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Yea naruto took advantage of that against neji I believe
I don't think it was ever explicitly stated the Sharingan can't distinguish clones, but there's no evidence that supports it can, nor can I see any reason it would.
Well unless it was none-canon during the chunin exam ark. Those gas mask like Ninja used water clones I think? It showed kind of how Sasuke saw them. And I forget if the Sharingan helped or not? I think it did to a degree. But those where not shadow clones?
But with shadow clones was there any time where Sasuke fought Naruto using his sharingan where sasuke was fooled by a shadow clones? I think there was? I don't think Sasuke can instantly tell them apart. I don't know though?
Now I think Madara can somehow tell shadow clones apart? Shortly after madara dropped into the battle like a rocket to backup obito. I think Madara made a comment about how this Naruto is a shadow clones too! Even before he would logically be able to tell or know? But I am not sure how accurate I remember that scene. So perhaps at least Madara can tell shadow clones apart? Overall personally I don't think anything can usually tell shadow clones from regular clones. Not even the sharingan? If madara did I'm not sure how he did it? Unless I am totally mistaken I am just mentioning what I remember. Also there is translation issues as well to consider. And I watched the anime back when Sasuke, Naruto and kabuto fought the gas masked ninja. So I don't even know if that was canon! Or how canon it really was some of it could have been none canon and or translation error.
All that ASIDE though!
I did want to mention something else that's my real reason for even replying in the first place. It's nothing important but it's interesting to think about.
I think me and my friend found a possible but obvious plot hole or loophole whatever you want to call it with the shadow clone jutsu! The user creates copies of clothing and weapons/tools right? Narutos clones all have Kunai right? You know back when he used to use Kunai and stuff! lol
But if I remember correctly he used various weapons in the fight VS Neji! Kunai and or shuriken...
The bodies all have equally distributed chakra so they cannot be identified as clones at least not by Neji. But the shadow cloned weapons and tools should also have some chakra in them. But the original Narutos tools and weapons should not have any chakra in them? Meaning someone like Neji who can easily see the tenketsu or whatever the tiny chakra nodes are called. Anyhow Neji should easily be able to see the chakra in the duplicated objects. Perhaps even within the holster Neji should be able to tell. But in the very least when thrown though the air the cloned Kunai and Shuriken should easily be detected as cloned. Meaning in most situations the source throwing them should also be clones. And the original should have weapons without chakra in them.
This should also be the same for other Ninja with abilities similar to Neji or with great chakra sensing capabilities. Which is not to many other people other than Neji but should include most or all sharingan/byakugan users.
I am not saying for sure this is a plothole and it's not a big deal at all. But I am just mentioning this because I find it at least a little interesting. Am I completely wrong? Did I miss something? You could perhaps say that a tool does not use Ninjutsu and stuff so the amount of Chakra in it must be smaller. But both the byakugan and sharingan at least from what I know are really good at seeing chakra. Even in small amounts... The byakugan even more so.
Though I don't remember it explicitly being stated, there is evidence enough to believe that the sharingan would be able to see through shadow clones. Though, this is an old argument and I don't really want to get into it, not in that regard at least but oh well. There are many reasons why people think it would be able to see through shadow clones.
Let's just look at some of things the sharingan has been able to do so far, Sasuke for example. When he first met Naruto again after the time skip he was able to see into the Kyuubi's pocket dimension inside Naruto and forcibly suppress the Kyuubi's chakra because of his eyes. In his fight with Orochimaru he was again able to control Orochimaru's own little pocket dimension because of his eyes. There is his fight with Deidara where he was able to see through and counter almost every single one of Deidara's moves including seeing his bombs buried undeground by Tobi and his microscopic C4 level attacks not to mention this. Then there is Madara using his sharingan to subjugate the Kyuubi here and his words imply that any Uchiha with sufficient strength would be able to do the same. There is also Obito using the sharingan to literally rip the Kyuubi out of Kushina. In fact Itachi did tell Sasuke that simply awakening the MS would give any Uchiha the ability to completely control the Kyuubi, though at the cost of eventually going blind. Interesting that Obito doesn't seem to have that problem. Plus there is the fact that the sharingan can see chakra not to mention the constant boasts about the sharingan being able to see through everything, here for example. I mentioned in my first post in this thread Madara, Obito, Danzo and Orochimaru wanting Hashirama's cells. Well the other thing Danzo and Orochimaru wanted was sharingans.
It just makes it hard to believe that such a powerful eye technique wouldn't be able to see through a B-ranked skill that most konoha ninjas seem to know that requires one simple seal, muchless MS or EMS. A point I should make, I remember someone pointing out a few years ago that it isn't the shadow clone technique that was forbidden but the multiple shadow clone technique which is what Naruto actually learned way back in chapter 1. Anyway the point is that shadow clones are not all that special and they aren't something that is unique to Naruto. His ability to use them as he does because of his immense chakra reserves, due mostly to being the host for the kyuubi, is though. So yeah there are plenty of reasons why it would be reasonable for someone to think that the sharingan would be able to see through shadow clones. The sharingan is extremely powerful for one thing and shadow clones just aren't on the same level as Hashirama's mokuton. We have seen so many people use mokuton at this point that I guess its understandable that most seem to have forgotten that it is a kekkei genkai unique to him and the only thing we have seen thus far that is anywhere near as overpowered as the sharingan is. The rinnegan doesn't count because it results from combining the Uchiha's and Senju's abilities.
Honestly I think the one thing the sharingan wouldn't be able to see through is Mu's ability to split himself, since that isn't a clone so there would be nothing to see through and as is mentioned here no matter how fast it happens as long as it is within the sharingan's field of vision they would still see it. There are a few ways people have tried to defeat the sharingan, for one thing as Gai said the first thing is to never look at their eyes. Itachi was able to completely defeat both Deidara and Orochimaru simply because they made the mistake of looking at his eyes. As we have seen it was how easily Itachi was able to defeat Orochimaru and cut off his hand that caused him to leave Akatsuki in the first place and as Sasuke said Orochimaru only came after him because he could not handle Itachi and Sasuke was the only other Uchiha. Another tactic that has been mentioned was by Zabuza, who said the best way to defeat the sharingan was to obscure its field of vision as he did with his hidden mist technique and fight by using sound. Another tactic which was mentioned by Chiyo, is to simply never fight against the sharingan one on one. Simply have one person to distract or otherwise neutralize the person using the sharingan while someone else attacks them from behind. Yet another tactic that has been mentioned is to simply have a sharingan of your own. What seems to work best is to simply be strong enough to be able to completely overpower the sharingan user and everything they can throw at you. As we saw back during the chuunin exam when Sasuke fought Rock Lee and as Gai has mentioned it doesn't matter if the sharingan can see through all your moves, if the person using it can't keep up with your speed then you can beat them with just taijutsu. If your ninjutsu is simply more powerful than a sharingan users ninjutsu then you can defeat their ninjutsu, if you are strong enough or versatile enough to simply break out of their genjutsu or are simply immune to it then you can win. We've seen Sasuke get his ass handed to him enough times to prove that, most notably at the Kage summit and by Killer Bee. It also seems to be the case with Hashirama and Madara where regardless of Madara having sharingan, MS, EMS or the Kyuubi. Hashirama is simply stronger than he is. As Sasuke said the sharingan is just a tool and like any tool it is only as powerful as the person using it, same could be said for Naruto's shadow clones. Really it raises a good question. Do you think Madara with Hashirama's cells which give him the use of Mokuton and Rinnegan would be stronger than Hashirama if he had a sharingan, MS, EMS and Rinnegan?
Anyway there has been a lot of inconsistencies with the sharingan and shadow clones and pretty much everything else in this manga but that is Naruto. Another thing to keep in mind is that we haven't seen that many sharingans, and as has been implied many times, other than the basic abilities the sharingan seems to bestow unique abilities upon some of its users. Sasuke, Itachi and Madara all seem to have the same abilities but we know form Itachi and Danzo that Shisui's sharingan and MS granted him different abilities and Obito's gave him and Kakashi different abilities as well. Then there is Izanagi and Izanami. So I just wouldn't underestimate the sharingan.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
2/3 of this post is just talking about how the sharingan is so awesome it should be able to do anything, 1/4 is talking about how to counter the sharingan?
I mean, Madara/Hashirama should be able to create pocket dimensions and warp reality on a cosmic level right since they're so awesome as well right? Really the only 2 points you've made are that the sharingan can see movements no matter how fast, and the sharingan gives color to chakra.
You might be able to make a case for this first one, say if Kage Bunshin "pulled" the body of the caster away to create the bunshins. The 2nd one goes back to how Kage Bunshin equally divides the chakra and wouldn't allow the sharingan to detect.
Speaking of, why the fuck doesn't Obito/Madara just do this to Naruto right now?When he first met Naruto again after the time skip he was able to see into the Kyuubi's pocket dimension inside Naruto and forcibly suppress the Kyuubi's chakra because of his eyes.
That was just some chakra leaking obviously, not uncaged and bonded with naruto kyuubi.
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