Deep chapter, really good.
defeated by a clone. yeah, sure.
I guess you could say Hashirama has a woody for Madara.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I am waiting for the 4th to Yellow-Flash his ass outta there!
assertnfailure (7:40:03 PM): dude....your posts are a bunch of nonsense
Yeah he must still have seals active somewhere.Originally Posted by iMUSTbeTHEdevil
Wait...I thought the sharingan could differentiate clones? Or is that only shadow clones? Unless I'm thinking of the byakugan.
"You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways."
Only if the clone is a genjutu, I believe. Sharingan cannot differentiate between kage bunshins and other advanced bunshins.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I'm pretty sure they explained far back that kage bunshin is special because it's a forbidden jutsu creating the body and splitting the owner's chakra and THAT'S why sharingan can't distinguish it from the other clones.
Also, a regular bunshin is a ninjutsu, not a genjutsu, and can be differentiated by the sharingan.
Dunno why would a wood bunshin be as effective as a kage bunshin vs Madara. Makes no sense if you ask me.
The evenly-distributed chakra part is why the BYAKUGAN can't distinguish from other clones, not sharingan.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Yea naruto took advantage of that against neji I believe
I don't think it was ever explicitly stated the Sharingan can't distinguish clones, but there's no evidence that supports it can, nor can I see any reason it would.
I would have thought it would also depend on the ability of the one making the clone. Two people could use Kage Bunshin, but someone like Kakashi making one and say Konohamaru making one must have a world of difference in terms of quality.
Come on guys. The shadow clone is a forbidden jutsu because of the risk it poses to the user, i.e. running out of chakra and thereby killing yourself. I believe Yamato went over the many advantages wood clones have over shadow clones quite some time ago, back when 4-tailed was fighting Orochimaru. I believe it was also mentioned somewhere along the way that Hashirama with his wood clones was able to make perfect copies of himself and only Madara was able to see through them, as is mentioned here. I think it was mentioned again back when we had white zetsu hell not too long ago and Naruto with his Uzumaki evil intentions sensing bs was the only one able to tell who the copies were thus the need for him to send a clone of himself to every battlefield.
At this point we should all accept that wood is simply greater than everything else. Which is why Hashirama is regarded as the God of shinobi and everyone from Orochimaru, to Danzo, to Obito and Madara is using his cells.
Last edited by Abdula; Thu, 04-04-2013 at 09:17 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
The only explanation could be then the stabbed Madara is also a clone or a genjutsu projection, considering that he would have seen through Hashirama's technique.
That is what I thought as well, based on the close up of Madara's EMS at the bottom of this page. He probably cast a genjutsu on Hashirama, especially since in their next sequence of attacks he gets stabbed because of a clone and Hashirama from his conversation with Sasuke obviously assumes he killed Madara then but we know that is not when Madara died. That panel is really unnecessary otherwise unless Kishi just wanted to show Madara's EMS again.
Besides we go from a close up of the sharingan in one panel, which Kishimoto did often enough whenever Itachi casts genjutsu on someone, to a close up of the moon in the very next panel. Not to mention Madara telling Hashirama about living in a dream right before that and one can't help but think Tsukiyomi. The infinite Tsukiyomi is Madara's idea anyway and what this entire war is about but who knows. Maybe I'm just reading too much into this and he did just get stabbed through the chest doesn't matter too much either way.
Last edited by Abdula; Thu, 04-04-2013 at 12:25 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
wow you guys are really looking into it too much. There have been many instances where a bunshin was created at the very last second and just swapped/kawarami/whateva
also, madara was not "defeated by a clone" nor is "wood bunshin be as effective as a kage bunshin"
notice how the clone is on the ground and madara is standing?
(then again, of course a wood bunshin is more effective than a kage bunshin like Madara even said himself)
hell he doesn't even have his sharingan activated (error or not) if you really need an explanation
I highly doubt that Madara cast a genjutsu or made a clone, since he stated numerous times how he was defeated and left for dead in this battle, and up until getting shanked in the back, I would hardly say he was defeated.
I wonder if you are just being dense Tofu. You said you see no reason why it would be able to and my argument is that even though I can't think of any instance where it was explicitly stated that the sharingan can see through shadow clones, if it can do so many other things why do you think it wouldn't be able to see through shadow clones. Secondly, stop talking about the evenly divided chakra thing. That is why Neji couldn't distinguish naruto's shadow clones from his real body, Simply because of how the byakugan's penetrative sight works, manga and anime versions respectively. The real strength of the byakugan is its nearly 360 field of vision and its telescopic sight. Sasuke in his fight with Deidara demonstrated that the sharingan's ocular abilities work differently. Thirdly, as I mentioned above, it has been remarked before that wood clones were superior to other clones in many different ways, beginning with the fact that unlike other clones, wood clones are made from actual living cells. Yet, as I linked to above, Madara said only his eyes were able to see through Hashirama's wood clones. Based on that statement it would not be a spectacular leap of logic to infer that other people were able to see through other types of clones but were unable to see through Hashirama's wood clones yet Madara was able to.
Uh.........NO! Also the point of mentioning the different ways people have used to defeat the sharingan is that no one has said that simply using shadow clones would be effective against the sharingan and I would think something that simple would be mentioned.
Um, so if Naruto is standing in front of a sharingan user and he makes, say 5 clones, wouldn't the sharingan's ability to follow movements no matter how fast, give the user the ability to just track the original?
Yeah one of the first things Madara did when he was revived was try to summon the Kyuubi and it failed. Though I think Obito or Madara would be able to simply rip the kyuubi out of Naruto or the hachibi out of Bee if they were able to get their hands on them, which is why Raikage wanted them to stay hidden in the first place.
Simply put, I think it is reasonable to assume that the sharingan can detect shadow clones, particularly Madara's, and it is ok to continue doing so unless we are told otherwise. You seem to be of the mindset, that it cannot be done unless Kishimoto expressly states otherwise.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
In this exact same chapter, sasuke says the reason he was able to counter Deidara was because "my eyes give color to chakra" hence in the image you quoted, Sasuke is only able to see those bugs because they're completely full of chakra. So what is so special about the sharingan that it can distinguish one body full of chakra from another?
The Sharingan's main abilities excluding MS have been shown to be of a "following" nature, whereas the Byakugan is more of a "insightful/penetrating" nature.
(Going of the previously made statement that the Byakugan was superior to the Sharingan, long before Sharinganigans) If the Byakugan can't tell the difference, how could the Sharingan?
Um that's what I said? Though if the original body is being "divided" how exactly would you tell which one is original? On top of that, everytime we've seen the bunshin, a poof of smoke obscures the caster[/quote]Um, so if Naruto is standing in front of a sharingan user and he makes, say 5 clones, wouldn't the sharingan's ability to follow movements no matter how fast, give the user the ability to just track the original?
If you want examples, from Naruto Wiki, I'm not going to take this as concrete since there's no sources to the manga cited;
Fuck, Kakashi couldn't even tell the difference between Zabuza and his water clone, and Itachi showed no evidence of distinguishing Kakashi's clones in both of their fights.In the anime episode Brothers: Distance Among the Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha claims that the Sharingan can distinguish clones from the original. This contradicts the manga and other anime episodes.
Now I think everyone will agree that this manga of full of inconsistencies and loopholes, the author just creates dues ex machinas whenever the fuck he wants, so you really shouldn't be looking into it too much.
To be completely honest. I face palmed when I read your post, followed by getting angry at the fact that you are so obstinate that you cannot see the flaws in your own argument. My initial instinct was to call you a moron and just completely ridicule all your posts but I'll refrain. Instead
If you think about it for a minute or two then it may come to you. Also if you cannot tell the difference between this and this then I cannot help you.In this exact same chapter, sasuke says the reason he was able to counter Deidara was because "my eyes give color to chakra" hence in the image you quoted, Sasuke is only able to see those bugs because they're completely full of chakra. So what is so special about the sharingan that it can distinguish one body full of chakra from another?
Lol and here I thought the sharingan's main abilities as has been stated many times, including when it was first introduced here, is that it gives you the ability to see through, read, copy and defeat all of your opponent's jutsus. The sharingan also has a penetrating eye or eye of insight, depending on which translation you wish to use and an eye of hynosis which gives then superior genjutsu,The Sharingan's main abilities excluding MS have been shown to be of a "following" nature, whereas the Byakugan is more of a "insightful/penetrating" nature.
When was this statement made and by whom? The only thing you can possibly be referring to is this. That was an opinion and not a fact and it has been shown to not be true. This is really idiotic, if you are arguing so doggedly based on a supposition that you developed as a result of Kakashi giving his opinion on something nearly 550 chapters ago. Especially considering that since that time his opinion has clearly been proven wrong. For example on that same page it is suggested that the Uchiha clan evolved from the Hyuga clan which led to the popular theory that the sharingan was some evolved form of the byakugan which we know is wrong. See the sage of the six paths' powers being divided between his two sons. One, the Uchiha progenitor, getting his eyes and the other, the Senju progenitor, getting his body. Hell in that same chapter Neji demonstrates the byakugan's superior abilities of insight by deducing Hinata's mental and emotional state simply by observing her body language. Something most people do instinctively.(Going of the previously made statement that the Byakugan was superior to the Sharingan, long before Sharinganigans) If the Byakugan can't tell the difference, how could the Sharingan?
As to how the sharingan could possibly be able to do something the byakugan can't do, the answer is simple. The sharingan is not the byakugan. The byakugan does not give the user the ability to copy other jutsu nor does the sharingan give the user a nearly 360 field of vision. So to answer your question, A is not B.
The original body is not being divided, it is being copied, there is a huge difference. If you were to cut off the ears of one of Naruto's shadow clones, when the technique is released Naruto would not have any physical wounds on his body. Whereas if Naruto loses his ears all his subsequent clones would be earless. Hypothetical scenario and a very bad one at that but the point stands. Secondly we do not in fact see a poof of smoke every time a shadow clone is made and I do believe the smoke appears around the clone itself. Similar to the smoke we see when something is summoned.Um that's what I said? Though if the original body is being "divided" how exactly would you tell which one is original? On top of that, everytime we've seen the bunshin, a poof of smoke obscures the caster
Yeah I am aware of that, which is why I didn't use it to simply put an end to this before and to clarify the statement isn't really contradictory since there is nothing in the manga then for it to contradict. It is simply something that was added to that episode that was not in the manga.If you want examples, from Naruto Wiki, I'm not going to take this as concrete since there's no sources to the manga cited;
In the anime episode Brothers: Distance Among the Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha claims that the Sharingan can distinguish clones from the original. This contradicts the manga and other anime episodes.
Again, those are two very bad examples to use. Kakashi did afterall see through and copy Zabuza's first clone, it was his second clone that he was unable to counter. Despite that after being freed from the water prison Kakashi totally dominated that fight because of the sharingan and it was Haku who had to rescue Zabuza. In addition Kakashi has said many many times, including in that fight, that he cannot use the sharingan properly because of his low chakra capacity and the fact that he is not an Uchiha. If you remember, Kakashi passed out after that fight and was unable to move for a week. In fact every time Kakashi has used the sharingan for any significant amount of time he was incapacitated afterwards. After he and Naruto fought Deidara he had to be carried back to Konoha by Gai. He died when he fought Pain and was revived by Nagato and during the current battle he was nearly about to die again before Kurama gave him chakra. After the battle with Kakuzu he said simply using MS completely drains him. It should also be noted that during that fight with Zabuza he also said that the sharingan doesn't fall for the same technique twice.Fuck, Kakashi couldn't even tell the difference between Zabuza and his water clone, and Itachi showed no evidence of distinguishing Kakashi's clones in both of their fights.
The Itachi example is bad because in their second fight Itachi's objective was not to defeat them but to delay them as long as possible and his actions later would suggest that he intentionally threw that fight as well as others in order to protect the leaf. Also in their first fight both Kakashi and Itachi were able to detect each other's clones. Really Kakashi's first battle against both Zabuza and Itachi are two great examples of how sharingan users can dominate their opponents.
This isn't really about whether I am reading into it too much or not. It is not even about whether the sharingan can see through shadow clones or not. This is about you asserting that the sharingan cannot see through shadow clones and stating that there is no evidence that supports it can, nor can you see any reason why it would. When your entire argument is based on the fact that the byakugan can't and you believe the byakugan to be superior to the sharingan and that is just ridiculous. I am just upset that you cannot make a sound and convincing argument.Now I think everyone will agree that this manga of full of inconsistencies and loopholes, the author just creates dues ex machinas whenever the fuck he wants, so you really shouldn't be looking into it too much.
I'll just link this for the hell of it.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Has it even been shown that there exists an "original" Naruto when shadow clones are out? The best I can recall is Naruto summoning a bunch of clones to beat the living shit out of each other until only the "real" one was left. But assuming there is no "real" one, then it doesn't matter which clone was the last clone standing, it would be the actual Naruto.
"You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood."
- Inquisitor Czevak
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