Naruto Chapter 626

[Yukimura]

I think what DS claimed above is supported by the scene where Naruto was doing the leaf cutting training and one of his clones made a breakthrough and and then dispelled itself and instantly all of the clones learned the information that had been gained by the dispelled one and started using it in their own training.

In fact, I think its reasonable to assume that the chakra that is distributed back to the collective is the actual vehicle for the knowledge transfer in the first place. When you add together the fact that Kage Bunshin dispelling returns knowledge to the collective to the established fact that a piece of a person's chakra can contain all of that persons knowledge at the time the chakra was separated from them then it stands to reason that the reason the Kage Bunshin knowledge transfer works the way it does is because the chakra of the dispelled clone is returned to the collective and their knowledge is integrated.

[viperwasp]

Does anyone have an answer or something to why the 3rd Hokages shadow clones could survive being stabbed though multiple times? OR was that just in the Anime? I never saw the Manga that much from way back than.

But the 3rd clones survived an attack that would likely kill or mess up a full out powerful Ninja much less clones.

Now I understand throughout the series we have seen shadow clones die and or withstand different degrees of damage. Even Narutos clones have fluctuated in how much they can handle. Sometimes a bee sting can kill them and other times the side of a mountain impacting a clones face may not dispel the clone. I don't have any exact real examples but you know we have kind of seen it. But at least most clones seem to die at any form of real physical damage.

I chalk it up to the persons will power, mastery of the shadow clone jutsu, and there overall ability to manipulate chakra or jutsu etc. Still the 3rd had some fairly bad ass shadow clones. Part of me just wants to call foul here and say it was somewhat of a plot hole or just has no real answer. It's up to the average person to just invent a reason why.

Heck you could even make up that the 3rd was draining or sustaining his shadow clones with the enemy he was grasping onto. But personally I'm just going to call it the Will of Fire.

[Abdula]

I think what DS claimed above is supported by the scene where Naruto was doing the leaf cutting training and one of his clones made a breakthrough and and then dispelled itself and instantly all of the clones learned the information that had been gained by the dispelled one and started using it in their own training.

In fact, I think its reasonable to assume that the chakra that is distributed back to the collective is the actual vehicle for the knowledge transfer in the first place. When you add together the fact that Kage Bunshin dispelling returns knowledge to the collective to the established fact that a piece of a person's chakra can contain all of that persons knowledge at the time the chakra was separated from them then it stands to reason that the reason the Kage Bunshin knowledge transfer works the way it does is because the chakra of the dispelled clone is returned to the collective and their knowledge is integrated.

Hey Yuki. I had no idea you still roam these parts. I think this scene lends even more credence to what DS said.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/552/6
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/555/2
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/555/11
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/10
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/11
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/6
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/12
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/14

Those however, and I can think of a few more, are contradictory and at the very least show that shadow clones are not an even split at all times. Naruto's shadow clones going sage mode by themselves, not to mention being able to create other shadow clones, completely contradicts what was said during his fight with Pain. If his shadow clones could make other shadow clones then why the hell didn't the clones he left at Myobokuzan simply make another clone and have that one gather natural energy when Naruto reverse summoned the first one. Why did Naruto have to make clones in sage mode in the first place.

Which is the point I was trying to make about the sharingan earlier. If in the next chapter Madara says he can see through shadow clones you just have to accept it. Much the same way we just had to accept Naruto all of a sudden gaining the ability to sense "evil" intentions out of nowhere when the plot required it. Deus ex machina is deus ex machina.

[darkshadow]

Nothing is being contradicted, nature chakra is seperate from his own, that's why he can have clones gather it for him.
The clones are also exact copies, any jutsu naruto can do they can do as well obviously, so them creating more clones isn't a contradiction and it can be assumed that it will split chakra only between themselves since it's being recast as a "new" user.

All clones naruto makes in sage mode will also be in sage mode, meaning if one of the clones he left behind would to split itself, it would effectively half the nature chakra it had gathered, giving naruto only 1 shot of a rasenshuriken if dispersed instead of 2.
Also the clones were completely immobile and could only focus the nature chakra, even when reversed summoned they didn't move at all; naruto clearly stated that the 2 clones focussing nature was his max, 1 more and they'd lose focus.
That's also why he only had 3 clones to fight pain, 4 fighting clones would also disrupt the focus.

[Tofu #2]

Yep still going. Yeah ok just literary devices as opposed to just showing us what the hell is happening. no. Sasuke clearly looks at the bombs in his arm with the sharingan. Later he even admitted to Deidara that he was able to see the microscopic bombs that would have been otherwise invisible because of the sharingan's ability to see chakra.

No I'm not talking about the chakra visualization, I'm talking I don't think the Sharingan can see through veins.

So are you saying that anyone whose eyes could follow high speed movements would be able to do the same thing? Gai for example. Why then did Orochimaru want the sharingan, so that he could learn every jutsu, when his eyes could already follow high speed movements. Seriously.

Seems like you're taking what I said completely literally, since this is no longer relevant, I'm going to disregard.

Yes it should specifically because A is B in this case or are you forgetting that EMS turns into the rinnegan which creates such a huge plot hole.

I think it's safe to say that without a doubt, the rinnegan cannot see chakra, cannot see through shadow clones, and cannot see through henge.

[quote] I think I must be missing something here because you just restated my point.[/quote

Madara said only his eyes were able to see through Hashirama's wood clones. Based on that statement it would not be a spectacular leap of logic to infer that other people were able to see through other types of clones but were unable to see through Hashirama's wood clones yet Madara was able to.

If ONLY Madara can see through wood clones, (read: Madara, NOT the Sharingan, though it is because of the Sharingan) then it is indeed a spectacular leap of logic to infer that other people were able to see through other types of clones.

No he really hasn't used it to the same extent as Itachi or Sasuke has for example. He can't even use Kamui the way Obito can and that is not simply because of his chakra levels. I brought it up because Kakashi keeps making a point of repeating it so there is something to it. It would make sense if he couldn't but he did.

Sure he can, he already warped the 8 tails, he's just starting to learn. Perhaps you can provide an example of something Itachi or Sasuke has done that exceeds Kakashi's limit, short of MS powers.

Also in his fight with Itachi when Akatsuki first gets mentioned he was clearly able to tell the difference between Itachi and his shadow clones.

Well there's already 2 Itachi's in that panel, it wouldn't be completely crazy to guess they were both clones.

I do believe I said I don't really consider anything that happened in that fight one way or the other. For one thing Kakashi commented right away that something was off about Itachi, particularly his fire ball technique. Secondly in that very same image Itachi compliments Kakashi on his skill for using the doton to conceal himself, I don't think he was referring to Kakashi jumping out of the ground and attempting to punch him.

It's not that hard to believe Itachi was actually trying in that fight. Putting Kakashi into a genjutsu that puts him to sleep would be leagues lower on a scale of "protecting Konoha" than using Tsukiyomi on him

I think you're doing a poor job of this I can actually make your argument for you, though it would be pretty ridiculous for me to argue both sides. For example I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet. Do you think Sasuke knew that was a clone, he should been able to tell but it appears he didn't.

No I omitted this because you could easily argue Sasuke was surprised at Itachi acknowledging his strength

I see you edited your post since I first read it. I was wondering why I thought a few things were missing. Oh and yes that is how the byakugan has been shown to work even when Ao uses it here which is very different from even the basic sharingan. The byakugan lets you see the chakra circulation system in a body and the tenketsu which is what the Hyuuga developed the gentle fist style to attack and why the evenly distributed chakra is a problem for the byakugan. It was never mentioned as an issue the sharingan would have. Assertn mentioned this in his third post in this thread. I have no idea why it keeps getting mentioned.

You misunderstood what I said, I did not mention a single thing about chakra, but this goes back to comment #2 of this post.

Here is the thing about all of this that is really really annoying me. You guys keep insisting that the sharingan cannot distinguish a show clone from the original. You, Tofu, went so far as to say that there is no evidence to support that it can nor can you see any reason it would. My initial response to that and all of my subsequent posts have been to show that not only is there evidence that the sharingan can but based on its stated abilities and the many other things it has been able to do, logically it should be able to distinguish a shadow clone from the original. I do not recalling ever stating that it could just that it should be able to. Let me check my posts just to be sure.
Why the hell do you guys just say it cannot. My point is that saying the sharingan cannot detect clones is kinda like saying ninjas cannot sense each other if anyone remembers that old argument. Based on what has been said about the sharingan, substitution jutsu should never work against it, right? I keep forgetting not to argue about Naruto. These things never go well.

I'm just discrediting your evidence and providing evidence that it can't.

[EpyonNext]

Jesus Christ. China doesn't even have walls to match the text in this thread.