Naruto Shippuuden Episode 298

[DB_Hunter]

I agree with the concept that when the leadership orders you to commit evil being a soldier and saying I follow the chain of command does not absolve you of blame. Also if you think about it, it was quite selfish of Itachi to murder every Uchiha man, woman and child but leave the one he loved alone. In the series this is shown as his love but in reality it was a flaw in his thinking; what made Sasuke's life more valuable than that of another Uchiha child?

On this basis I think you can say that Itachi should not have become Hokage as he has a proven track record of letting his personal interests override the mission at hand and also to execute immoral missions. But then this claim can also be leveled at Sandaime for letting Orochimaru go and also allowing the Uchiha massacre to go ahead.

I think we are actually reaching the limits of the manga's capability to establish values which should guide governance and a nation with this discussion. On a simplistic level the actions of both Sandaime and Itachi are shown as acts of love but if taken in the greater context they are decisions which had massive consequences.

[Buffalobiian]

First of all, I think we need to establish and agree on the assumption that the Uchihas were staging a coup. At least then we're all talking about whether or not Itachi picked the right side to protect.

And honestly, if a guy agreed to wipe out his entire clan on the premise that it's saving the rest of the village.. I'm pretty sure a guy as intelligent as Itachi would have made sure he wasn't acting on someone's guess.

I had totally forgotten about the whole Uchiha-being-isolated thing.. but it still doesn't make Itachi's decision any different. To him, both sides are villagers from Konoha. It's just a matter of picking the action that causes the least casualty (given that the killing of one side is unavoidable), then following that path.

[DB_Hunter]

But the issue here is that even if they were plotting a coup, was this justified? This would determine which side was 'right' in all this.

[Kraco]

(given that the killing of one side is unavoidable)

And what on Earth dictates that? This is exactly why I called it a coward's easy way out: Kill 'em all and you will never need to worry about anything again, in good and in bad - except that history books may call you a bloodthirsty monster and tyrant if you don't succeed perfectly with your scapegoat. Now it's pretty much up to Naruto and the very few others who know the truth to decide how it will all end. Will they have forged history books or will they face their past.

[DB_Hunter]

It would seem then in order to solve the Itachi/Sasuke question, the surviving elders of the Konoha leadership should be put in trial for suspected mass murder and then tried in court to establish the truth. What this doesn't mean however is that Sasuke goes emo and starts to kill everyone in Konoha as revenge, because it could well be that his brother is guilty in some capacity in all this.

[Kraco]

But then again, if we look at this from a totally different direction, maybe it's Naruto with his ideals of justice and friendship who should be kicked out of the village. In the end it is a ninja village. And ninja are shadowy assassins, spies, and thieves. If we consider Will of Fire nothing more than pretty words to raise battle morale, then it could be said Uchiha got what they deserved by getting surprised so off-guard. In the world of ninja only the most guileful, strong, skillful, resilient, and wicked triumph. If this is the truth, then this show surely has done poor job depicting it on screen through the main characters. It'd be hard to imagine Tenten suddenly slitting, say, Chouji's throat if suddenly ordered to. Or Lee cracking Hinata's skull after receiving an order to do it, without a question. So, I'd say there's some glaring disparity between how the Uchiha clan's case was handled and how the main generation is being raised.

[DarthEnderX]

First of all, I think we need to establish and agree on the assumption that the Uchihas were staging a coup.

I'd say that's a perfectly fair assumption. Itachi was their man on the inside after all, I doubt he would have had them pull the trigger on the Uchiha if a coup wasn't imminent.

But of course, that's only an assumption we can make barring crazy ninja deception like someone intentionally framing the Uchiha somehow in order to get them wiped out etc, but it's pretty pointless to try and take those things into account.

And what on Earth dictates that? This is exactly why I called it a coward's easy way out: Kill 'em all and you will never need to worry about anything again, in good and in bad - except that history books may call you a bloodthirsty monster and tyrant if you don't succeed perfectly with your scapegoat.

Well, again, it being the ninja world basically removes other options.

It's not like you can just banish the clan, because then they'll go join another village, which will give that village an advantage over you.

It would seem then in order to solve the Itachi/Sasuke question, the surviving elders of the Konoha leadership should be put in trial for suspected mass murder and then tried in court to establish the truth.

You're assuming that "Mass murder for suspected treason" is even a crime to these people. It probably isn't.

Or that Naruto even HAS a court system. I've never seen one.

[Kraco]

It's not like you can just banish the clan, because then they'll go join another village, which will give that village an advantage over you.

No, it would give that other village a timebomb ready to explode at any moment. An advantageous clan wouldn't have been banished in the first place, would it?

[DarthEnderX]

No, it would give that other village a timebomb ready to explode at any moment. An advantageous clan wouldn't have been banished in the first place, would it?

I think given how powerful the Uchiha's reputation was, any of the other villages would jump at the chance to recruit them.

But you're right, the Uchiha trying to found their own village(like Orochimaru did) is probably more likely.

[poopdeville]

Real history has never accepted "I was just following orders" as a very good excuse for crimes against humanity. Especially in a situation where there was no imminent threat to the person expected to fulfill the order. There was no such threat upon Itachi since the dude could leave the village just fine even after performing the task and becoming a scapegoat. So, he was free to do whatever he wanted, including hitting the road (to avoid punishment by the leadership) or defending his own family and clan, one way or another.

It's quite ironic the same people who ordered such an atrocity then have the audacity to preach about their precious Will of Fire.

Itachi never claimed to be "just following orders". He loved the village and realized the strategic necessity of destroying the Uchiha threat. So he did it, as ordered, instead of the other things you mentioned.

Itachi had the will of fire.

[Kraco]

How exactly are you protecting a village by massacring a sizable portion of it? My idea of the word "protect" (which the Will of Fire is full of) doesn't involve piles of innocent bystander corpses, children included.

Like I said much earlier, his wisdow ended right there, when he thought that order was a sound one. It's much worse he wasn't just following orders but in fact embraced the idea like a madman.

[DarthEnderX]

How exactly are you protecting a village by massacring a sizable portion of it?

By preventing a larger, even more lethal conflict.

Remember, Itachi supposedly did what he did because he experience the "horrors of war" at a young age. To him, it was better to simply assassinate the Uchiha than to inflict the full-scale war their rebellion would have caused upon the village.

Again, I don't agree with that. It's more of that bullshit ninja world reasoning. I'm just saying that is Itachi's justification to himself.

[Buffalobiian]

Again, I don't agree with that. It's more of that bullshit ninja world reasoning.

Secret agents and task forces exist like that in our world too. It's not just some doomed-to-fail BS. It more or less works.

[Kraco]

Secret agents and task forces exist like that in our world too. It's not just some doomed-to-fail BS. It more or less works.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Ever after WWII the success rate of ethnic cleansing has been quite miserable in real history. It wasn't so much monitored earlier, but is there any specific reason to believe it worked remarkably better pre-WWII? I think if a society is ready to rely on a method like that, it's quite rotten already and even if the massacre seemingly worked, there should be plenty of other problems remaining. Like how they treated Naruto. They were lucky in Konoha Naruto is such a brainless saint.

[Buffalobiian]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Ever after WWII the success rate of ethnic cleansing has been quite miserable in real history. It wasn't so much monitored earlier, but is there any specific reason to believe it worked remarkably better pre-WWII? I think if a society is ready to rely on a method like that, it's quite rotten already and even if the massacre seemingly worked, there should be plenty of other problems remaining. Like how they treated Naruto. They were lucky in Konoha Naruto is such a brainless saint.

I'm not talking about mass genocide, but the idea that you pre-emptively destroy enemies before they can attack, after you're sure that they're going to launch an attack at you.

[Kraco]

I'm not talking about mass genocide, but the idea that you pre-emptively destroy enemies before they can attack, after you're sure that they're going to launch an attack at you.

Yeah, but the definition of the enemy makes all the difference. We aren't talking about wiping out an unquestionable terrorist training camp here, but a part of their own village with children and elderly in addition to the men and women of fighting age. Add to that the fact many of those men and women must have been honourable veterans of Konoha's past wars, definding the whole village against external threats.

Like I said in one of my posts, it could be said it makes all the difference it's a ninja village, that is, a village of assassins, so none living there, not even a ramen booth owner, should expect nothing but to get backstabbed at any moment by their own neighbour, but how does such a mentality show in the main character generation? It doesn't show at all! Except for emo-Sasuke... And Danzo's Root.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah, but the definition of the enemy makes all the difference. We aren't talking about wiping out an unquestionable terrorist training camp here, but a part of their own village with children and elderly in addition to the men and women of fighting age. Add to that the fact many of those men and women must have been honourable veterans of Konoha's past wars, definding the whole village against external threats.

Those old folks and women were supportive of this (as far as Itachi/Konoha is concerned).. and leaving them around is the same as leaving seeds of hatred lying around. (women giving birth to new generation of vengeful Uchihas?)

Anyway, it's the thought and plans to overturn the village that counts. That's treason, war hero or not.

[Kraco]

Anyway, it's the thought and plans to overturn the village that counts. That's treason, war hero or not.

Really? So back in the States the Democrat presidential candidate is committing a treason everytime a Republican is in power and vice versa? Every man is entitled to dream of changes in the leadership. Even if they weren't segregated like Uchiha happened to be, but if they were, then all the more so. Considering what happened to them, I'd say Uchiha were miserably late in putting their plans into action.

[DarthEnderX]

Secret agents and task forces exist like that in our world too.

Yes, and the places on Earth that have those of the kind that would wipe out portions of it's own population for fear of rebellion are generally considered some of the worst places on the planet.

It more or less works.

If by "works" you mean "Keeps those in power, in power" then yes. If you mean "works" as in "creates a functioning society that is able to grow and develop"...not so much.


It's funny, but at the end of the day, the Naruto world is basically a lot like the world in Metal Gear Solid 4. It basically boils down to "What if the world was run by a bunch of Private Military Corporations." Because that's essentially what the ninja villages are.

[Buffalobiian]

Really? So back in the States the Democrat presidential candidate is committing a treason everytime a Republican is in power and vice versa? Every man is entitled to dream of changes in the leadership. Even if they weren't segregated like Uchiha happened to be, but if they were, then all the more so. Considering what happened to them, I'd say Uchiha were miserably late in putting their plans into action.

The Uchiha aren't running for Hokage. They're doing a coup. If the Republican started a coup ...

Hmm, actually.. treason might not be the right word. You have to sell out your country for an opposing one for it to be treason, don't you? Civil war doesn't count then.