Naruto Shippuuden Episode 298

[DarthEnderX]

1) Yes, I killed every Uchiha but don't hate me, because
2) The Hokage ordered it to be done since we're all rebellious as shit.

Why not?

Or better yet, just leave out the part where the Hokage ordered it. Tell him you volunteered for the mission because you feel the village is more important than any single clan.

Then at least Sasuke MIGHT decide to hate Itachi still, or he might just hate the Uchiha clan, who are dead, so who gives a fuck. And if Sasuke still decides to hunt you down, you let him. You tell him you understand why he's doing it, and you don't hate him for it.

In the end, we never found out how Madara escaped death from that

I just assumed he used his phasing power to phase through the flames. Or teleport them away.

But how else could he have done it?

You don't exactly tell an 8-year-old that:

1) Yes, I killed every Uchiha but don't hate me, because
2) The Hokage ordered it to be done since we're all rebellious as shit.

Why not?

How is that any more damaging than telling him: 1) Yes, I killed every Uchiha because MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

Or better yet, just leave out the part where the Hokage ordered it. Tell him you volunteered for the mission because you feel the village is more important than any single clan. And while you're at it, explain to him why your life experiences and how your friendship with Shisui Uchiha causes you to feel that yet.

Then at least Sasuke MIGHT decide to hate Itachi still, or he might just hate the Uchiha clan, who are dead, so who gives a fuck. And if Sasuke still decides to hunt you down, you let him. You tell him you understand why he's doing it, and you don't hate him for it.

It's called treating him like a person you actually care about, instead of like a puppet, and then being surprised when someone else shoves their hand up his ass.

[Buffalobiian]

Why not?

Because you don't tell your young brother about top secret ANBU missions, especially when it involves dirty work.

Even if he understands, do you think an 8yo can keep his mouth shut when others are badmouthing Itachi about how he's a murdering lunatic and other shit?

[DarthEnderX]

Because you don't tell your young brother about top secret ANBU missions, especially when it involves dirty work.

Isn't that basically one of the major themes of the entire series though is how all the secrecy and duplicity of the ninja world is responsible for pretty much every terrible thing that's ever happened in the series?

Take Gaara for example. He spent years as a psychopathic mass murderer because those who cared for him thought it was good for the village to deceive him.

In fact, I'd say it's probably THE most central theme of Naruto as a whole. That the way ninja society operates doesn't fucking work. It turns endless stream of child soldiers into non-functional monsters. Every horrible villain in the series has some tragic backstory that happened because somebody was trying to protect their village's interests.

And the only reason any of our villainous characters are ever redeemed is through contact with Naruto, who's the only character in the series that goes, "You know what, this ninja shit is fucked up, I'm going to try treating these people as human beings instead of weapons".


Anyway, my original point was that I don't consider Itachi to be a particularly "wise" character. And that's because he acts in a way that is in keeping with the way the ninja world is run. And the ninja world, which is, for all intents and purposes, a government built ENTIRELY of spies and assassins, is the exact opposite of what I would consider to be "wisdom".

[Kraco]

Itachi's wisdom ended at the point he decided it's wise to slaughter his own clan when someone not from his clan told him to do it. There's simply no excuse whatsoever for that. He turned against his own people. How he handled the lone survivor, Sasuke, is inconsequential after that fell deed. It hardly matters what he told or didn't tell Sasuke, the boy's mental health was ruined anyway; it's just semantics to ponder how exactly it was ruined.

[DarthEnderX]

Itachi's wisdom ended at the point he decided it's wise to slaughter his own clan when someone not from his clan told him to do it. There's simply no excuse whatsoever for that. He turned against his own people.

He's supposed to take their side just because they're his clan?

So if, say, your family is planning to blow up a dam that's would flood an entire city and kill everyone in it, the wise thing to do would still be to side with your own family?

Congratulations! You're the reason people think racial profiling works!

when someone not from his clan told him to do it.

You know, something just occurred to me reading this...

So we know Danzou had Shisui's eye, and we know exactly what it does now...can we be sure Itachi actually did choose to follow his orders and slaughter his clan? Maybe Danzou made him do it with Shisui's eye.

This has no bearing on what we were just talking about, it's just something I happened to realize.

[DB_Hunter]

Itachi may not have dealt with Sasuke in the best way but he wasn't dealing with a normal situation. Plus how old was he himself? It was the old wrinkled leadership of Konoha that took the decision and then left Itachi to deal with the fallout, which is no easy task and not fair either.

Itachi was young and his intentions were always good, he was thrust in a situation where no other ninja in the whole world has been and was expected to make the right choices at a young age. That's too much expectation and I don't think it should colour his overall character.

[Buffalobiian]

So we know Danzou had Shisui's eye, and we know exactly what it does now...can we be sure Itachi actually did choose to follow his orders and slaughter his clan? Maybe Danzou made him do it with Shisui's eye.

Did Danzo know about this? Itachi was Hokage's ANBU, not one who followed Danzo/Root. Danzo would have had to know about this plan if he was to hypnotise Itachi into doing it. (Can't remember if Danzo revealed that he knew about the plan all along or not)

As for Kraco's point.. I don't think he actually meant to side with the Uchihas, but to let other people kill your clan instead of killing it yourself. (edit: guess not. See next post)

As for the "ninja world is screwed up" scenario.. Naruto is talking about dispelling the hatred and taking it all upon himself. If Sandaime was to use that ideal, the had the option of:

1) Tell the Uchihas to suck up their hatred and be buds.
2) Let the Uchiha attack his village, then tell his village to suck up their hatred and be buds.

I doubt plan 1 would have worked given how pissed those guys were, and plan 2 means you have to fight anyway. Given that the Uchihas were pretty damn elite in their own right, that would mean casualties galore.

A pre-emptive strike was what Sandaime ordered.. and Itachi was the best person to execute it.

Thinking back about the whole "dispelling hatred" thing.. Itachi was pretty close to doing that. The perfect way would have been to kill everybody, leaving the village and making sure Itachi's own hatred born from being made to kill his own brother ended with himself.

Instead, he let his brother live. He egged Sasuke's hatred on.. but since no one would be left to avenge him (Itachi), the chain of hatred should have stopped there.

[Kraco]

He's supposed to take their side just because they're his clan?

So if, say, your family is planning to blow up a dam that's would flood an entire city and kill everyone in it, the wise thing to do would still be to side with your own family?

Congratulations! You're the reason people think racial profiling works!

Yes, thank you for the congratulations, you are welcome.

You also should be presented with a cell in the same hell I apparently belong to if you believe people pre-emptively performing a genocide are any better than people who were just maybe possibly perhaps planning to do something drastic. So, yeah, I do think Itachi should have taken his own clan's side - by trying his utmost to prevent the conflict (if he was a man of peace and hoping his little bro gets a jolly childhood) and if that failed, then openly fight in the ranks of Uchiha against the rest of Konoha (assuming the rest of Konoha were as radical as Hokage and had taken part in the civil war). He could have, for example, brought it all to light. That would have surely heightened the tensions but it would have also forced everybody to deal with the situation, violently or peacefully, but most importantly: openly.

So, yeah, I do genuinely believe you should defend your family and clan, no matter the situation, but defending them doesn't need to mean the worst possible alternative available. That might get you branded a traitor by some people on both sides, but in the end that personal sacrifice could have helped many more, again on both sides.

[Buffalobiian]

So, yeah, I do genuinely believe you should defend your family and clan, no matter the situation, but defending them doesn't need to mean the worst possible alternative available.

Put it this way: neither side is backing down. Calling out the Uchiha means their defeat because the Hokage would flatten them.

Not calling out would mean the village's defeat because the element of surprise turns the tables.

Open civil war could result in more casualties because you'll have to kill off the entire Uchiha clan anyway, while the village loses their warriors too. Such an unstable internal power struggle would also invite external invasion from enemy nations.

[Kraco]

It can't be helped. Everybody has an equal right to live. If you aren't ready to get your own blood spilled, don't be eager to have others' blood spilled. However, I'm just talking about this from the perspective of Itachi's theoretical other choices, instead of the poor one he made. You can't seriously claim that massacring the entire clan was the best and only choice. It's no proper answer at all, it's just an easy way out chosen by a coward.

Naturo has been fighting against those easy, cowardly ways throughout the story, in his own foolish way. Like DE said earlier.

[DB_Hunter]

One young man taking on an elite clan by himself can hardly be called cowardly. His values meant that he held the stability and prosperity of his nation higher than that of his clan, as he viewed the leadership of Konoha to be on the whole reasonable. The Uchiha clan on the other hand seemed to be acting out of pride more than anything, as any issues should otherwise have been brought to the negotiating table. The fact is they were planning a coup, something which Itachi's father confirmed in his dying breaths when he said he admired Itachi for being firm in his choice.

[DarthEnderX]

Did Danzo know about this? Itachi was Hokage's ANBU, not one who followed Danzo/Root. Danzo would have had to know about this plan if he was to hypnotise Itachi into doing it. (Can't remember if Danzo revealed that he knew about the plan all along or not)

I was pretty sure that when Madara told Sasuke about it he gave the impression that all of the Konoha Elders were responsible for the decision. So the 3rd, Danzou, and those other two old people.

As for the "ninja world is screwed up" scenario.. Naruto is talking about dispelling the hatred and taking it all upon himself. If Sandaime was to use that ideal, the had the option of:

1) Tell the Uchihas to suck up their hatred and be buds.
2) Let the Uchiha attack his village, then tell his village to suck up their hatred and be buds.

To be honest, it shouldn't have gotten that far in the first place.

The series gives the impression that the reason the Uchiha chose to rebel was because they were being treated like shit. And they were being treated like shit purely because of the actions of Madara. Which goes back to the whole "Ninja world is screwed up" because Konoha thought it would be a good idea to alienate the most powerful clan in the village because one of it's members was rogue.

if that failed, then openly fight

Again, ninja world.

One young man taking on an elite clan by himself can hardly be called cowardly.

Well, to be fair, he took them on from a position of trust...and most of them in their sleep.

[Kraco]

One young man taking on an elite clan by himself can hardly be called cowardly. His values meant that he held the stability and prosperity of his nation higher than that of his clan, as he viewed the leadership of Konoha to be on the whole reasonable. The Uchiha clan on the other hand seemed to be acting out of pride more than anything, as any issues should otherwise have been brought to the negotiating table. The fact is they were planning a coup, something which Itachi's father confirmed in his dying breaths when he said he admired Itachi for being firm in his choice.

Sure you can build stability and prosperity on a genocide, but where you do stop? Is the Hyuuga clan the next? They seem pretty dangerous. Or perhaps it's Nara? They are so intelligent they must be harbouring thoughts of being better than anyone else to lead the village. In fact the Konoha elders should get down to removing the feudal lords and their lineage since they clearly aren't up to ruling the whole country. Once you reject the idea of getting along with other people, you are walking down such a path.

And yes, it is cowardly. Because Hokage decided to remove Uchiha out of fear. He feared they were planning something and feared they might succeed. Besides, Konoha was stupid enough to elect Danzo as their leader. If that man qualified, any Uchiha would have as well.

[DarthEnderX]

I just think it's cool we're having such a deep conversation about Naruto.

I haven't done that in ages cause all you fuckers do it in the manga threads!

[DB_Hunter]

Sure you can build stability and prosperity on a genocide, but where you do stop? Is the Hyuuga clan the next? They seem pretty dangerous. Or perhaps it's Nara? They are so intelligent they must be harbouring thoughts of being better than anyone else to lead the village. In fact the Konoha elders should get down to removing the feudal lords and their lineage since they clearly aren't up to ruling the whole country. Once you reject the idea of getting along with other people, you are walking down such a path.

And yes, it is cowardly. Because Hokage decided to remove Uchiha out of fear. He feared they were planning something and feared they might succeed. Besides, Konoha was stupid enough to elect Danzo as their leader. If that man qualified, any Uchiha would have as well.

I'm not saying Itachi did the right thing by obeying the leadership just because of who they are; that would be as bad as Itachi siding with the Uchiha just because of who they are. I'm assuming that the leadership did what it could to look at the Uchiha's problems and look to address them, not just massacre them based on suspicion alone. There may have been perceived slights ever since the foundation of Konoha between the Senju and the Uchiha but things seems to have been brought to a head by the attack of the Kyuubi which was controlled by an Uchiha. The Uchiha were isolated as a precaution it seems and they didn't like it. Was it the right thing to do? It can be seen akin to collectivised punishment or racial profiling which probably wound the Uchiha up.

I think the key to this lies in whether or not the Senju really did oppress the Uchiha from the start as claimed by Tobi and whether the Uchiha really were trouble makers from the start. If they did oppress them then perhaps the Uchiha were right to fight back in which case, Itachi shouldn't have just sided with the leadership. However if the Uchiha were to do a coup it should have been a targetted attack and not a random massacre of other ninjas from the Senju clan. If they were planning random massacres then Itachi may have sided with the leadership in order to implement a solution with the least amount of bloodshed, if he thought the leadership itself could still be salvaged and be made just whilst the Uchiha were beyond redemption and had become twisted.

You could say I guess the mistake in this was the way the leadership dealt with the post Kyuubi attack situation. It shouldn't have criminalised an entire clan even if one member was responsible for the attack.

[frog hermit]

I really enjoy reading DE "the ninja world is messed up" theory. it really does seem like the central underlying theme. and Naruto is the only one who can see differently, he will change the Ninja world.

Itachi killing his whole clan was not the best action to take. But he was a soldier acting on orders, patriotism and maybe some Japanese type of "honor system" we really don't understand as Americans but makes sense to Japanese people. We are talking about a culture of people that had Seppuku for the warrior class when failing at their task. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku -

What would Naruto have done in itachi's place? I don't think kill his whole clan would be an option.

[DarthEnderX]

You could say I guess the mistake in this was the way the leadership dealt with the post Kyuubi attack situation.

I'd say that sums it up pretty well.

[Kraco]

Even if the Uchiha were oppressed, to a degree, after the Kyuubi attack, I still find it hard to believe that every single adult, after putting their children lovingly to sleep, congregated to discuss clandestine plans for the destruction of the world. What else would they have done but have meetings of some sort, considering they were purposefully separated from the rest of the village for something none of those present did? Of course they would meet up occasionally to, at the very least, think how they could change their situation. The rest of Konoha still considered them elites, so it's only natural they would like to have an equal chance to lead the village as well.

I guess in a paramilitary environment like a ninja village, any meetings could be seen mutinous by the leadership, but nevertheless, there can't be any other reason but witless fear or insane hatred to slaughter them all down to the very last baby. I hope the truth will be revealed to the whole village when this is all over. That ought to make an interesting scene.

[DB_Hunter]

I agree it does seem like collectivised punishment and that is wrong. The fault for this lies with the leadership of the village.

Should Itachi, as a soldier, have then rebelled against the command structure and leadership? Should he have sided with the Uchiha or as the situation was complicated simply sat this one out? Perhaps he should have.

[Kraco]

Should Itachi, as a soldier, have then rebelled against the command structure and leadership? Should he have sided with the Uchiha or as the situation was complicated simply sat this one out? Perhaps he should have.

Real history has never accepted "I was just following orders" as a very good excuse for crimes against humanity. Especially in a situation where there was no imminent threat to the person expected to fulfill the order. There was no such threat upon Itachi since the dude could leave the village just fine even after performing the task and becoming a scapegoat. So, he was free to do whatever he wanted, including hitting the road (to avoid punishment by the leadership) or defending his own family and clan, one way or another.

It's quite ironic the same people who ordered such an atrocity then have the audacity to preach about their precious Will of Fire.