Attack on Titan: Shingeki no Kyojin

[MFauli]

That's fucking stupid, and is basically just an excuse to remove ALL other options from the table.

"Unless this is 100% guaranteed to work, you HAVE to murder EVERYONE else instead." That's a completely unreasonable and nonsensical restriction to put into place, and I'm not even going to entertain listing hypotheticals with that kind of bullshit handcuffing in place.

But that's the only realistic scenario for Eren to give up his current plans. And no, it doesn't need to be 100% safe, that's a strawman. Give me 90%, or at least 80% safety. 70% even. But when it's 50:50 or worse, then WHY would any sane person risk the genocide of his own people?! You make it sound like I'm the bad one here. I think your stance is vastly worse than mine.

Basically, if it had been up to you, we would ALL be fucking dead from nuclear war by now. Because your entire justification is "Well, if there's even the slightest chance they might annihilate us, then it's too dangerous NOT to annihilate them! Don't explore any other options. The risk it too high."

You want to bring in real life-politics now? Because I sure as hell AM in favor of fighting Russia with NATO forces. Yes, that would mean some nukes hitting targets in Europe, too, but Russia would be defeated once and for all and all this bs that Putin keeps doing finally ends. The alternative, that is unfortunately what's happening now, is that Ukraine is about to be eradicated from the map, the terrorist regime Putin will ultimately win, and once all of this is over, the situation will be as unstable and unpredictable as before the war started, except now Russia is even stronger. And the moment the West starts doing business with this stronger Russia again will make the EU fall apart and make them look incredibly weak. So, again, yes, I'd risk a nuclear fight, because the alternative is even worse in the long run.

Similar, all the alternatives are worse for Eldians. Unless you finally provide some of your "limitless avenues".

I think you yearn for black and white delineation of justification. That's not here. Attack on Titan's story outgrew that seasons ago.

To clarify this, because you make it sound like I only want some basic bitch-story: Shades of greys are nice. I like that. What angers me is how NOBODY in that group is showing a more black/white-opinion, as if that was wrong. It's not. The most we get is Jean's beating Reiner, but that ends with Jean also joining the rest. And tbh, within these shades of grey, everyone following the same goal is pretty black/white in itself.

[neflight86]

To clarify this, because you make it sound like I only want some basic bitch-story: Shades of greys are nice. I like that. What angers me is how NOBODY in that group is showing a more black/white-opinion, as if that was wrong. It's not.

It's not wrong, per say, but none of these characters have a leg to stand on if they did, which is why they don't. It makes great sense. Who at this camp fire could say, with absolute moral superiority "The other side is completely bad, and we are justified in killing them"? Nobody because they all have blood on their hands. Gabi, early season 4 could do that (in her propagandized ignorance), but has since matured and even she knows things aren't as simple as "We can only prosper if the island devils survive".

[Buffalobiian]

Not okay. Still genocide.
Attachment 1956

Yes, it's still genocide.

But it's okay.

In everyday human life, it's not okay to stop a race from procreating against their will and having them die out, assuming they're sentient and have human thought capacity.

In a war where one side has giants and one side is figuring out how to secure victory against the other? It's fine. It's the least violent way to effectively have peace.

We've been engineering a virus that does just that against rabbits in Australia. That, or we keep doing what we're doing right now and just shooting/clubbing/baiting/whatever-ing the rabbits we come across.

[shinta|hikari]

Damn, you just compared Eldians to rabbits.

I'm with Darth. There are better options that don't include genocide, even if it can fail in the future and another solution needs to be found then.

[DarthEnderX]

But that's the only realistic scenario for Eren to give up his current plans. And no, it doesn't need to be 100% safe, that's a strawman. Give me 90%, or at least 80% safety. 70% even. But when it's 50:50 or worse, then WHY would any sane person risk the genocide of his own people?!

Okay, so what's the success rate of his CURRENT plan? What are the odds of Zeke just regaining control at any moment and sterilizing the Eldians? Can you tell me what that % is? Or would you just have to make up a number? How do you know the difference between an 80% success plan and a 50% plan?

And the moment the West starts doing business with this stronger Russia again will make the EU fall apart and make them look incredibly weak. So, again, yes, I'd risk a nuclear fight, because the alternative is even worse in the long run.

I feel like the fact that you think "Russia gets stronger and the EU looks weak" is "worse in the long run" than everyone dying in a nuclear war pretty much says it all.

[Buffalobiian]

Damn, you just compared Eldians to rabbits.

I did. I don't see humans as being much different to animals in regards to genocide or the suffering induced by taking away procreation success.

Both individuals suffer if violent murder was used instead, and both species are perceived as a threat by the other party.

Humans will be aware that their race will die out one day, and perhaps with it their culture or their version of history - but that doesn't really impact on the gravity of the genocide itself. That is, genocide of a culture-rich society is the same as genocide of a cultureless society.

This is especially true if Zeke's Eldian Sterilisation Project managed to guarantee that remaining Eldians did not suffer the treatment they have been subjected to thus far. But, as I mentioned before, Zeke's sterilisation plan is flawed because it doesn't address the fact that Marley wants Eldians for military purposes.

We're talking about solutions to win a war and addressing the various objectives of Marley, the world and Paradise Island.

Co-existence isn't impossible, because there's a kink in the story. Remember that Marley wants the Founding Titan because the world is getting better at killing titans. They want the Founding Titan to dominate the world before the other countries' tech trees overtake theirs. Meanwhile, the world is "apparently" scared of the Rumbling and is happy to help (we don't know for sure, we've only seen Marley come on this offensive).

So what should technically happen in 100 years' time? If what Marley says is true, then there will come a time when Eldians are themselves not a threat. In a world where everyone can kill titans with relative ease, Eldians cease to be the feared race that they were.

Conditions for peacefully ending this conflict would be:

1) Guaranteeing Paradise Island's safety.
2) Removing Marley's objective of world domination.
3) Removing the treat of titans by giving the world titan-killing technology.

That's a pipe dream though.

Eren's choosing to nuke everyone instead. Similarly in real life, nukes are super effective. Difference between his world and ours is that he's the only side that has them, while in our world nukes are slow and a few people have them, so the concept of guaranteed mutual destruction gave us relative peace and the cold war.

[shinta|hikari]

That is, genocide of a culture-rich society is the same as genocide of a cultureless society.

This isn't really the difference though. The difference is the genocide of a society that you can understand and converse with versus one you cannot. That is really the fundamental difference between humans and animals, or as you say, Eldians and rabbits.

In your worldview, we are basically not more immoral if we kill a human vs killing a rabbit, and we do kill a ton of rabbits with no repercussions IRL, so that entails we can kill humans with no repercussions. At the very least, in trying to maintain a functional and enduring human society, the latter cannot be condoned.

[Buffalobiian]

Foreword: I tried writing a bunch of quotes/replies, but I’m going to use fresh dot-points to express my views since that’s more clear. Plus my previous post may have been misleading about a thing or two so I won’t re-quote that.

So, here goes.

-I agree that both sterilization and killing of individuals amount to genocide. I disagree that both forms of genocide are the same thing.

-I think sterilization of humans and sterilization of animals is comparable. Means of sterilization aside, the harm (or lack thereof) is equal.

-I think there is a difference in the killing of animals vs the killing of humans on an individual level. The difference comes down to the latter being able to comprehend their sense of self, having a concept of time and future, and what murder/killing/death means in relation to that. Animals vary in their understanding of the above. Not all animals are equal.

To give some examples here, I’d say that the hierarchy of least to most immoral killing would be something like:

5wk embryo = 32wk foetus = 2 day old baby
Demented person lacking awareness but knows hunger and sleep etc = random mammal.
Human/being with higher order thought processes intact.

-Being able to communicate with the victim doesn’t change the morality of killing per se. It changes whether or not other options are available to explore. The morality of killing depends on the victim’s sentience as above. Communication (either one-way or two-way) does help us establish how sentient each party is however.

-I share Darth’s sense of scale when it comes to large scale killing. When it goes beyond an individual level and we’re talking about thousands of lives, I can’t process the comparison of animals vs humans and I consider them effectively a number/statistic. They might as well be equal.

[MFauli]

Okay, so what's the success rate of his CURRENT plan? What are the odds of Zeke just regaining control at any moment and sterilizing the Eldians? Can you tell me what that % is? Or would you just have to make up a number? How do you know the difference between an 80% success plan and a 50% plan?

100%. At least that's what Eren is thinking at the moment.

And I'd still like to hear 2-3 alternative avenues that don't involve anyone's genocide. I'm not asking for a "gotcha", I'm honestly curious, because I cannot think of a no genocide-scenario, other than relaying a decision to future generations, which wouldn't solve the issue.

I feel like the fact that you think "Russia gets stronger and the EU looks weak" is "worse in the long run" than everyone dying in a nuclear war pretty much says it all.

"Everyone dying" from Mr. "You're thinking too black and white". A couple nukes would hit. The West would live on. Cities be rebuilt. At some point a decision needs to made and I'd rather it be made when Russia is at its weakest and before more innocent countries are being invaded by them. The West doesn't have some god-given right of not being hit by war realities. Fuck Putin.

[DarthEnderX]

And I'd still like to hear 2-3 alternative avenues that don't involve anyone's genocide. I'm not asking for a "gotcha", I'm honestly curious, because I cannot think of a no genocide-scenario, other than relaying a decision to future generations, which wouldn't solve the issue.

I gave my preferred course of action already in a response to neflight:

Like, realistically, Eren should just be able to smash Marley's military and government. Free his fellow Eldians, and then begin negotiations with the other countries, having just freed them all from Marley's oppression. Hell, the Japanese-ish country was ALREADY willing to ally with them.

And again, you're putting another unnecessary requirement on to the end. Now the plan also has to be "actions of future generations"-proof? Why?

"Everyone dying" from Mr. "You're thinking too black and white". A couple nukes would hit. The West would live on.

Not sure why you think that. The whole reason nuclear deterrence has worked up until now is because of the idea neither side can nuke the other because both the US and Russia have enough nukes to literally blanket the opposite hemisphere in fire.

The idea being, as soon as you launch a couple nukes at Russia, Putin, knowing that it's the end of him, and being the asshole that he is, wouldn't respond with just a couple surgical strikes. And at that point, even if you aren't hit by a nuke directly, the nuclear fallout afterwards is likely enough to wipe out mankind.

[shinta|hikari]

-I agree that both sterilization and killing of individuals amount to genocide. I disagree that both forms of genocide are the same thing.

Agreed. Killing individuals is certainly worse.

-I think sterilization of humans and sterilization of animals is comparable. Means of sterilization aside, the harm (or lack thereof) is equal.

The main difference here is that sterilization for humans will result in their culture and history vanishing since there will be no descendants to continue them. Animals do not have such concepts, living only in the present with no understanding of history or legacy.

5wk embryo = 32wk foetus = 2 day old baby
Demented person lacking awareness but knows hunger and sleep etc = random mammal.
Human/being with higher order thought processes intact.

I disagree with the first statement because a 2-day-old baby has the potential to grow into an adult human WITHOUT having to be a parasite to its mother. Fetuses are different from born babies in this strict sense and should give them human rights. The rest I agree with.

Communication (either one-way or two-way) does help us establish how sentient each party is however.

This was the root of my point. If a creature cannot communicate at the level of human beings, then they should not be treated at the same level as human beings. The results of this can vary according to personal morality, such as vegans who treat most animal life as precious, or in contrast, people like me who will eat anything including humans (that are already dead) if it wouldn't land me in trouble.

-I share Darth’s sense of scale when it comes to large scale killing. When it goes beyond an individual level and we’re talking about thousands of lives, I can’t process the comparison of animals vs humans and I consider them effectively a number/statistic. They might as well be equal.

Was that really Darth's point, though? I think he'd see killing thousands of humans vs thousands of chickens in a different light, as would I.

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, I don't place any of the same value on animals that I do on sapient life.

[Buffalobiian]

The main difference here is that sterilization for humans will result in their culture and history vanishing since there will be no descendants to continue them. Animals do not have such concepts, living only in the present with no understanding of history or legacy.

I disagree there that culture makes the genocide more unacceptable. A culture-rich race does not deserve to live on more than one that doesn't have one. That's what I said here:

That is, genocide of a culture-rich society is the same as genocide of a cultureless society.

------------

I disagree with the first statement because a 2-day-old baby has the potential to grow into an adult human WITHOUT having to be a parasite to its mother. Fetuses are different from born babies in this strict sense and should give them human rights.

A 2 day old baby is completely dependant on the mother. It can not survive on its own in any way. Self-sufficiency isn't so much the issue as self-awareness. Nor can it communicate to the level of a competent human. I pretty much share Peter Singer's views on this topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_...nd_infanticide

Was that really Darth's point, though? I think he'd see killing thousands of humans vs thousands of chickens in a different light, as would I.

I didn't think he'd consider animal and human life to be of similar weight, but the tl;dr version after I re-read his post is that I did misread some of what he read. That said, re-reading that.. Darth you say that Global sterilisation is 11 and global killing is 12, but murder is 10.. so sterilisation > murder?

Personally, when it comes to global genocide, I consider all species more or less the same. Delete human = world loses a species. Delete dog, world loses a species. The world doesn't care if you have history or thought. I think ultimately we kill other living things because we can, because we find it beneficial, and because the other party isn't advanced enough to fight back.


I should mention at this point that I think Thanos did what was needed, which makes it the correct thing.

[DarthEnderX]

Personally, when it comes to global genocide, I consider all species more or less the same. Delete human = world loses a species. Delete dog, world loses a species. The world doesn't care if you have history or thought.

To me, human beings are the world. I don't particularly give a shit what the inanimate ball of rock we happen to live on thinks about the subject.

I should mention at this point that I think Thanos did what was needed, which makes it the correct thing.

Whatever you say, chief.

[shinta|hikari]

@Buff - Thank you for the clear answers. While I have differing opinions about some of what you said, I really appreciate the consistency in your views.

While not as detached as yours, I have a fairly unemotional reason for my opinion about putting humans above animals and caring for them in general (which makes killing them a bad thing). It's isn't really empathy or even a sense of attachment to being the same species. I simply find beauty in striving for improvement rather than letting stagnation and regression naturally continue. It just so happens humans are the most prevalent and dominant species on earth and thus has the most impact when changed in my lifetime, making the effort, or at the very least chasing the ideal, more worthwhile.

This is also why I'm not so worried about climate change because I'll probably be dead before shit truly hits the fan. In contrast, I worry about nuclear war now because things will go to shit so fast, and I don't want to die yet.

[MFauli]

No episode this week?

[Buffalobiian]

It's out. (ep85)












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Somehow Yelena is supposed to know where Eren's headed when she was a Zeke loyalist?

Duo titans show why dual bosses are such a bitch to fight.

[DarthEnderX]

Somehow Yelena is supposed to know where Eren's headed when she was a Zeke loyalist?

He told Eren everything about the mainland. So she might know what his targets will be.

[MFauli]

That was a bad episode :/

Sorry, but am I supposed to empathize with the "heroes" when they're THAT overwhelmingly in advantage?! Blabla mission goals blabla, but Floch's group never a chance once battle broke out. All the heroes + titans versus group of randos. Exciting /s

This didn't need more than half an episode, considering how predictable it went. And fuck Armin and Conny. A situation like this is where you give up on your grand plan because you realize it's right to kill friends over it.

Also I just want to see Annie suffer. Bitch feels no remorse at all, slamming helpless people again like it's nothing.

Edit:

Question to manga readers, only yes or no pls, and send me a PM if posting it here is too much: Are 2 episodes enough to cover the rest of the story or can we expect more anime, maybe in the form of a movie? Just wondering, because I just realized it's only 2 more episodes :/

[DarthEnderX]

All the heroes + titans versus group of randos.

You mean the thing 90% of the series used to be about?

Bitch feels no remorse at all, slamming helpless people again like it's nothing.

And it's sooooo fucking satisfying. Floch's group are the the worst fucking Nazi-wannabes. It's just too bad Floch himself isn't dead yet.