What happens if killing all the titans involves killing civilians?Originally Posted by Kraco
The problem with his goal, is that it isn't a means to benefiting humans if killing is all Eren's concerned about. What happens when it no longer coincides with the needs of humans? Will Eren become the enemy of humanity just to kill further titans?
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Both really. He IS a Titan after all. So after killing all the other titans, if he really wants to rid the world of titans once and for all, he has to kill himself too.
It already did. In order to beat Annie he had to throw her through a bunch of inhabited buildings, killing people inside.
Yeah, that was the best part. Squished because Eren punched Annie. I wonder if he actually feels guilt for doing that.
Peace.
Whether he does or doesn't shouldn't affect his actions if he plans to stick to his goal. I'd say he does feel, considering he became a useless weakling after joining the recon legion, but now he ought to have understood that the outcome is dictated by the feelings he lets control himself the most. Like Armin said, if he's only concerned about losing things (allies, his own comfort), he won't achieve shit. If he's only concerned about slaying titans, he can do that in a grand fashion but also irreversibly lose something in the process.
I realizeit's happening already, the question's does Eren? You're also right in in that you have to sacrifice in order to get something done, but to what end? Erwin can sacrifice, but he doesn't do it in vain and he also keeps track of his losses. Can Eren?
Pretending or outright not seeing your collateral damage isn't the same as accepting and taking responsibility for them.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
If he fights as a titan in the middle of the city, there's no avoiding collateral as long as the opponents don't care about it (like they won't). The choice would be to hold back and achieve nothing, letting the enemy run free. Taking responsibility is a matter of his mental fortitude, though, nothing else. That is, how long he can accept outsider victims as inavoidable or somehow explain them as participants in the humanity's bigger war of survival.
But naturally this is all something that depends on his faithfulness to his original goal. I wouldn't really count on that because, like I said before, Eren actually exceedingly disappointedly totally forgot it for half of the show. I can't help but wonder how long such an indecisive airhead actually could manage to push forward, accepting the high price. If he at some point gives up, then it will be all for naught, all civilian deaths included (unless he had managed to win back the lost wall, or something else concrete before breaking). And of course if the story later revealed fighting the titans is no solution to anything at all, then he would face quite an utter humiliation and personal defeat, with his actions turning out to be nothing but petty revenge at high cost.
I guess the question is, which one makes him worse.
I realize nobody likes whiny Erin, but personally, I dislike the second one more. The whole "sacrifice-anything-to-achieve-my-vengeance" mindset really pisses me off.
Kraco, my gripe isn't to do with Eren's mental fortitude or how he weighs collateral damage. It's whether or not he even knows about collateral damage in the first place.
In this episode, Eren fought Annie. Annie left for an open battlefield to avoid losses. It's not as if Eren didn't give a shit about losses, but it's that he didn't even know about them in the first place.
He's not saying "I'll kill titans no matter what" or "these losses are justified by discovering her secret". He's parading with his killing mentality while being oblivious to the lives he directly or indirectly took. DE brought up the question about which of these being the worst. For me, it's definitely Eren holding his head high with his ideals thinking he avenged humanity and his family without knowing how they've suffered from his actions at the same time.
Disregarding whether Annie and Erwin made the right choices, they're at least responsible for them. Eren's lack of awareness doesn't allow him to take responsibility for his based on this episode - and that is my problem with him.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
No, Annie headed for the open battlefield because it would prevent the human soldiers from attacking her (no high places for 3D maneuvers) and because she needs a bit of room for her trained and sophisticated martial arts moves. If she had any thoughts about avoiding extra kills, it was of secondary importance. She has been killing ordinary grunts so gleefully she doesn't really consider each and every human life sacred. Only her "friends" mattered.
I find it hard to believe Eren wouldn't realise, at least before and after. Hard to say when he's in a berserk mode, but probably not - since he's in a berserk mode and berserks aren't known for thinking too much when fighting. It's enough if he knows afterwards because he will always be in a position to decide whether to keep fighting in the future or not.
Iīd like to a contrarian point of view regarding Eren:
You guys are criticizing him, complaining about his lack of awareness or responsibility. About him being naive, whiny, stupid.
Let me say that I, too, want to criticize Eren, but for a whole different reason: His lack of resolve. The ONLY responsibility Eren has, is the one his dead mother. When a titan ate his mother, Eren swore to kill all titans. Thatīs his one and only reason for being where he is now, as part of the survey corps. Because of that, when Eren finally went all berserk against Annie, it was then that I nodded and said to myself "now heīs doing what he said heīd do at long last". In other words, Eren took the stance of a lonesome warrior, akin to Guts, but then became, well, really just lazy about it, made lots of friends, "enjoyed" the time and didnīt really persevere his original goal besides occasional hero speeches.
Eren lacks resolve and ruthlessness. He needs both to become stronger, and itīs probably also the very solution to gain full control over his titan body, in the way Annie had. Right now, his strenghts relies on his feelings, and thatīs no basis to make further plans for whatever. Armin would tell Eren exactly that, if heīs as smart as heīs made look like.
I cannot really blame him for that though. People change, and being an avenger isn't really the most pleasant option one has. Having spent time with friends can make people (want to) forget the heavier and more painful things they carry.
Peace.
It also leads them to believe that vengeance isn't all that they have left, which is as you say.. an induced change.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Is there any evidence of that she wasn't just fighting in a place where the Corp couldn't back Eren up in combat?
Right, he's finally acting on all that stupid shit he's been saying since the start of the series...yay.
Exactly! Why, only the shittiest kind of character imaginable would ignore all of that to pursue their petty vengeance.
......
Last edited by DarthEnderX; Wed, 10-02-2013 at 03:57 AM.
That cute look she had before she headed for the open area.
Peace.
______________________________________
"Always be yourself... unless you suck."
So I just started getting into this show does anyone know of a high quality batch anywhere? cause some of the episodes (3 for example) don't have working links anymore. as always your help is appreciated.
gg - Shinkegi no Kyojin S1 batch 720p
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
arn't the BDs comming out atm? and shouldn't he wait for them, since they fixxed animation issues and all that
Some BDs are out. I'm not sure when they'll be released entirely though.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
I'm ok with not waiting, thanks a ton Buffalo!
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