Attack on Titan: Shingeki no Kyojin

[Pandadice]

Yeah, I've seen Claymore and Berserk and all those action-packed anime. But I don't want to see that type of stuff; I want to see the awesome sky-surfing fighting from the trailer, just, you know, without the "deep plot" (aka heavy fascistic overtones) that makes me feel uncomfortable with what I'm watching.

Perhaps some different anime would be more up alley...like Naruto fillers...or Pokemon.

I think it's really telling how you apparently divide "anime" into "story" or "no-story" opposed to, say, more traditional divisions like adult-male or for-kids. But, that's not just you, it's the whole of "anime" fandom really.

"you don't like shady and questionable morals being pushed through with your action shows? here, try this anime for 5 year olds, you'll probably like it more"

[MFauli]

have you watched "Casshern Sins" already? Theres some "deep" talk in there, too, but also lots and lots of over-the-top fighting.

for the note, i love the non-fighting-scenes in Shingeki, fleshes out the world. And nonstop action would get boring soon imo.

[Kraco]

"you don't like shady and questionable morals being pushed through with your action shows? here, try this anime for 5 year olds, you'll probably like it more"

I haven't noticed any propaganda in this show. I have only seen the story investing in building its world. Dig up your time machine from under the layer of dust and jump back to the mid-late 19th century. Then imagine humanity of that era on the brink of a slow annihilation and the world of this show wouldn't be so far off the mark. Humans simply are power abusing, backstabbing scumbags, when given a chance. Try to give them the shining armor of a hero and you are on your way to a kids' fairy tale.

[Pandadice]

have you watched "Casshern Sins" already? Theres some "deep" talk in there, too, but also lots and lots of over-the-top fighting.

for the note, i love the non-fighting-scenes in Shingeki, fleshes out the world. And nonstop action would get boring soon imo.

Yeah, I've seen Casshern Sins. That was a really great one. My favorite parts were the beginning episodes where it was basically just dying things trying to find beauty in a decaying world.

And honestly, yeah, I really enjoyed how fleshed out it was (the detailed descriptions of everything on the eye-catches is cool). And surely we couldn't have just 20 solid minutes of fighting every week, but I'd take more suspenseful/calculated fighting over listening to the main character any day.

I haven't noticed any propaganda in this show. I have only seen the story investing in building its world. Dig up your time machine from under the layer of dust and jump back to the mid-late 19th century. Then imagine humanity of that era on the brink of a slow annihilation and the world of this show wouldn't be so far off the mark. Humans simply are power abusing, backstabbing scumbags, when given a chance. Try to give them the shining armor of a hero and you are on your way to a kids' fairy tale.

Honestly, it's been like 4 weeks since I watched the 13 episodes so I'm having trouble recalling specifics, but the main characters motivation is basically just a glorification of vengeance, and the female sidekick is a celebration of psychopathy. That mantis example is probably the most over the top example I could cite though. But I just remember sitting through it and it seemed like a ton of dialogue was pushing really questionable morals.

I mean, I like the historical/human nature argument you're making here, but to rephrase it a bit, what you're saying could be applied to a study of the Nazis. "Hey, they took advantage of their circumstances and nearly got away with it. They were only human, can you blame them? Human's are backstabbing scumbags." But, I also like that you point out how intentionally gray it is. Perhaps I was misinterpreting it; I was just assuming that I was supposed to relate to or be inspired by the main character, but actually I'm supposed to see him/everyone else as disgusting (as I did). I guess in that light it's actually a really cool demonstration of the breaking down of right/wrong, good/bad. So yeah, totally Nietzsche.

But really, the more I think about it, I think it's totally legitimate to criticize the moral worldview or underlying social/personal messages of any anime. It's all really just TV shows and movies, which are comparable to books in terms of communicating or impressing morals. Likewise, it seems entirely normal for one to criticize anime for historical inaccuracies, dubious science, physically impossible phenomena ("that door can't open that way," "an arm can't bend like that"), internal inconsistencies, flat or underdeveloped characters, or just bad writing in general. So in that sense, with all of that being fair game for judging an anime, then I think questionable moral values is also something that's worth considering when discussing the quality of a show.

I mean, if Titan was all about preaching fundamentalist Christianity every episode, I'm sure people here (if they even continued watching it) would constantly lament that it continues pushing the gospel truth. People would likely criticize the series for devoting so much time to the lead character talking about his heavenly reward and trying to convert all his friends. Imagine if such moral values were being pushed through in between bits of what you really care about watching (the sky-surfing grappling hook giant slashing).

[shinta|hikari]

You should learn to watch and appreciate something (even if it contradicts your morals) without being too affected by it.

The themes in this show are logical to the world and story it is trying to build. If you criticize it for that, it is not the show's fault as a narrative. It is just you rejecting a story because it does not coincide with your morals. That is perfectly fine though.

For example, despite being agnostic, I can watch/read stories about faith and religion and actually enjoy, even feel touched by them.

Also, lelouch might have said it in the wrong way, but he makes a valid point in recommending anime targeted for younger audiences because those generally contain morals that are probably more in line with what you are looking for. Anime targeted for more mature viewers generally have really questionable morals and themes. That does not mean they are pushing it or trying to influence the viewers though. If anything, I think SnK is trying to show the viewers the negative side of humanity in crisis to allow us to criticize the society they built, not to glorify it. If you read through this thread, most of the posts are complaints about the characters (except Mikasa, you are the first on that one, and made me write this post) and the government.

About your comment about liking or disliking the characters, it is quite possible to like aspects of a character and dislike others. For example, I hate how Eren is way too hot headed and arrogant, and how he treats Mikasa, but I also like his tenacity and concern for his friends. His desire for vengeance is understandable, but I am not too fond of it either since there is no future for him there, and his target is too vague an existence. Basically what I am saying is, just because you like a character or feel inspired by him/her does not mean that you have to be like him/her in every way. Also, just because you hate a character does not make everything about him/her crap.

There are also points in the story that show really positive human qualities. You seem to be picking out the worst aspects of humanity depicted while ignoring the positive ones, like self sacrifice, love, and hope.

[Pandadice]

wow, awesome post man, thanks. You've given me a lot to think about.

You should learn to watch and appreciate something (even if it contradicts your morals) without being too affected by it.

The themes in this show are logical to the world and story it is trying to build. If you criticize it for that, it is not the show's fault as a narrative. It is just you rejecting a story because it does not coincide with your morals. That is perfectly fine though.

For example, despite being agnostic, I can watch/read stories about faith and religion and actually enjoy, even feel touched by them.

I can, and do, watch plenty of things I don't agree with. Honestly, I take a fairly malleable "ironist" approach to my own moral worldview. Literature and movies/tv (including SnK) are one such place to find moral redescriptions or critiques or alternative views. However, when encountering such moral worldviews, I try not to outright accept or reject anything "i just don't agree with," but rather I try to critique it and make an assessment. I mean, at some point it's really about a certain inward resonance. And when watching a show and running into a lot of dissonance, and I constantly relate what is being presented to other negatively viewed experiences or ideas, then it just becomes uncomfortable to keep listening to the show. I guess on some level I do have trouble sitting through stuff I disagree with, but I think your agnostic/faith example is different from what I'm trying to say here. I did sit through 13 episodes after all, so it's not like I immediately shut the thing out. But it just got to the point where disagreeable worldviews were draining out the enjoyment.

Like I said in my first post, the whole thing is like one giant oozing existential crisis. That stuff can be cool sometimes. Maybe I'm just not getting into the fantasy appropriately, and am having trouble relating to whats happening. I dunno. I just want my angst-filled teens to be separate and put off to the side.

Also, lelouch might have said it in the wrong way, but he makes a valid point in recommending anime targeted for younger audiences because those generally contain morals that are probably more in line with what you are looking for. Anime targeted for more mature viewers generally have really questionable morals and themes. That does not mean they are pushing it or trying to influence the viewers though. If anything, I think SnK is trying to show the viewers the negative side of humanity in crisis to allow us to criticize the society they built, not to glorify it. If you read through this thread, most of the posts are complaints about the characters (except Mikasa, you are the first on that one, and made me write this post) and the government.

Like I said, I'm not about only seeking out things I agree with beforehand. Worldview pretty malleable. Those other "mature" shows with questionable morals and themes are usually totally open to my viewing/critiquing, but again, it's all about the assessment of what's being portrayed. It's not just about "questionable" as in it questions some really conservative worldview or something, but it's about the inward resonance and ability to withstand scrutiny (or even really just what the upshot of such scrutiny is--"withstand" isn't really what I mean, but it's more about examining them and seeing where such an examination goes).

But you also seem to be saying what Kraco said, which puts the show in a new light for me. The idea that the show is supposed to be viewed negatively I think is a really cool way to approach it. So we're more watching Orwell's 1984 rather than some army ad glorifying the awesomeness of violence. Redescribed this way, I might actually finish out the series.

About your comment about liking or disliking the characters, it is quite possible to like aspects of a character and dislike others. For example, I hate how Eren is way too hot headed and arrogant, and how he treats Mikasa, but I also like his tenacity and concern for his friends. His desire for vengeance is understandable, but I am not too fond of it either since there is no future for him there, and his target is too vague an existence. Basically what I am saying is, just because you like a character or feel inspired by him/her does not mean that you have to be like him/her in every way. Also, just because you hate a character does not make everything about him/her crap.

Yeah, I really don't like Eren, and you basically nailed down way. But I will agree that it is better to look at the characters with more complexity rather than trying to write them off on oversimplifications. (But still, I do have a problem with Mikasa's psychopathy).

There are also points in the story that show really positive human qualities. You seem to be picking out the worst aspects of humanity depicted while ignoring the positive ones, like self sacrifice, love, and hope.

wait, were such things present in the first 13 episodes? I mean, many of my complaints could be redescribed to fit such terms, as they're all malleable and subjective concepts. But yeah, I'm probably oversimplifying and emphasizing the negative at the expense of the good (the existentialism really does drain everything else out imo )

[DarthEnderX]

I just want to watch a lot of grappling hook sky-surfing giant slashing

Unfortunately, that's the part that costs all the money to make.

Perhaps some different anime would be more up alley...like Naruto fillers...or Pokemon.

Naruto fillers and Pokemon have neither of the things he's asking for.

I haven't noticed any propaganda in this show.

The Titans actually represent Muslims.

[Kraco]

But you also seem to be saying what Kraco said, which puts the show in a new light for me. The idea that the show is supposed to be viewed negatively I think is a really cool way to approach it. So we're more watching Orwell's 1984 rather than some army ad glorifying the awesomeness of violence. Redescribed this way, I might actually finish out the series.

At the end of the day this is still a product of the entertainment business, nothing more. So, if you don't find it entertaining, there should be zero reason to watch it. It's not like we were talking about some masterpieces of Nobel awarded world literature here and we were all students of literature that have to read a bunch of those and write long studies of their underlying messages and backgrounds. However, obviously you are mainly, at this point, going to get replies from people who are enjoying this show, more or less, (not having dropped it), and thus they are likely to defend it.

Yeah, I really don't like Eren, and you basically nailed down way. But I will agree that it is better to look at the characters with more complexity rather than trying to write them off on oversimplifications. (But still, I do have a problem with Mikasa's psychopathy).

I reckon Mikasa's psychopathy is there simply because this is an anime based on a manga. Her sort of characters will enjoy considerable popularity among the readers, and no doubt among the authors themselves, so you should take it as such. It's a popularity device, an anime trope, a moe agent. I don't find her particularly realistic in the bigger setting, but her inborn kung fu and everything else kind of make her so unbelievable that you just have to accept her and like her or let it bother you to no end. Fortunately I liked her instantly.

I actually liked Eren being more single-mindedly interested in revenge and striking back against the titans. Too few people really seemed to want that, being ridiculously content living behind the walls while 99.999999999% of the world was apparently ruled by the titans. Because of that the city was also so twisted: The king and government are only interested in maintaining their petty domain and the fragile status quo. It looks like not much effort had been invested in emergency resources or fighting the titans since some initial burst of innovation a long time ago when the 3D gear was first developed. Obviously a political revolution would benefit mankind the most, to get rid of the king who reserves the best fighters for his own protection from other humans rather than using them to fight titans, but that would be beyond Eren.

[Buffalobiian]

Mikasa is only 2 steps behind Gasai Yuno, so I can see why her character can be uncomfortable.

[Pandadice]

Can I just say, you guys are the only ones who have taken my complaints seriously and offered up reasonable responses. This is why gotwoot is awesome, you guys aren't afraid to discuss the shows past the latest episode. A lot of good points have been made, and I'm probably gonna continue with the series. But I really like this discussion so I'm gonna make a response.

At the end of the day this is still a product of the entertainment business, nothing more. So, if you don't find it entertaining, there should be zero reason to watch it. It's not like we were talking about some masterpieces of Nobel awarded world literature here and we were all students of literature that have to read a bunch of those and write long studies of their underlying messages and backgrounds.

I dunno, I don't by it. You're basically saying "leave the lit crit out of the cartoons," and I disagree with that, as I mentioned in my second post. I know we all need to suspend our disbelief and it's all just fantasy, but there still remains a certain element of realism for us to appreciate (given how fleshed out the 3d maneuver gears are and stuff). If this show tried to pass off really dubious and poorly thought out science then no doubt a discussion over such things would be warranted. If characters in the show *should have* died, but some dues ex machina arrives and saves them at the last minute, then no doubt we would hear complaints that it was lazy writing or unrealistic. Perhaps you have already had discussions like this in this thread (I haven't read past the first page). In this sense, to complain about anything in the series would go against your argument that "it is what it is" (when someone comes in and says "the episode shouldn't have ended like that" do you really respond "if you're not entertained then drop it"?). Likewise, I think authorial intent certainly matters to some degree, but at the same time i don't think you can limit your experience of the work to just what the creator's purpose was. That seems silly to me.

Further, you seem to be compartmentalizing literature arbitrarily into award-winning work and non-award winning works, as if one objectively has more to teach us morally than the other. I don't buy such a distinction, and I prefer to analyze whatever literature (including film and tv) I encounter (honestly, it's not like I'm heavily scrutinizing it all--a basic rational assessment/reaction just comes out of my head like one would have a natural emotion reaction to a work). Plenty of anime has been known to push a social message (a lot of directors make a point that everything needs some sort of social message (e.g. Miyazaki, Takahata)), and directors, whether they acknowledge it, certainly imbue their creations with their own worldviews. I know I just said authorial intent doesn't matter, but even if it did then I think you have to acknowledge it's more complicated than just raw entertainment.

I reckon Mikasa's psychopathy is there simply because this is an anime based on a manga. Her sort of characters will enjoy considerable popularity among the readers, and no doubt among the authors themselves, so you should take it as such. It's a popularity device, an anime trope, a moe agent. I don't find her particularly realistic in the bigger setting, but her inborn kung fu and everything else kind of make her so unbelievable that you just have to accept her and like her or let it bother you to no end. Fortunately I liked her instantly.

Alright, yeah, I was still considering our psychopathy from the viewpoint of a series glorifying vengeance. If I move beyond that view of the series then it's no problem to just consider her a moe device. But I'm not sure if acknowledging her to be a moe cliche makes her more likable.

I actually liked Eren being more single-mindedly interested in revenge and striking back against the titans. Too few people really seemed to want that, being ridiculously content living behind the walls while 99.999999999% of the world was apparently ruled by the titans. Because of that the city was also so twisted: The king and government are only interested in maintaining their petty domain and the fragile status quo. It looks like not much effort had been invested in emergency resources or fighting the titans since some initial burst of innovation a long time ago when the 3D gear was first developed. Obviously a political revolution would benefit mankind the most, to get rid of the king who reserves the best fighters for his own protection from other humans rather than using them to fight titans, but that would be beyond Eren.

I dunno, that whole "contradiction" that they made a big deal out of just made me cringe. Like, isn't that how everything works? The best soldiers go to protect the big boss while the lesser soldiers go do the suicide stuff? That just seems like such a typical structure imo that when they identified it as some sort of mind-blowing contradiction all I could do was cringe.

[Buffalobiian]

Alright, yeah, I was still considering our psychopathy from the viewpoint of a series glorifying vengeance. If I move beyond that view of the series then it's no problem to just consider her a moe device. But I'm not sure if acknowledging her to be a moe cliche makes her more likable.

Hold on, what parts of Mikasa constitues as psychopathy for you?

I thought it was the "I'll serve Eren even if it means destroying humanity" line of thought. She doesn't seem vengence-driven.

[Kraco]

I dunno, I don't by it. You're basically saying "leave the lit crit out of the cartoons," and I disagree with that, as I mentioned in my second post...

Further, you seem to be compartmentalizing literature arbitrarily into award-winning work and non-award winning works, as if one objectively has more to teach us morally than the other.

Hmm... I don't know if I expressed my intention poorly or if you put emphasis on all the wrong parts when reading it, but the two points I was saying were:

1) There's no reason to force you to watch any anime if you find some aspects of it too annoying. In the past I used to struggle through a lot of shows but these days I drop them like a rock if I don't find them entertaining enough. Because they are meant to be just entertainment. This is related to an opinion I have developed: An excellent story will please some immeasurably but annoy the rest just as much. You can't please everybody. If you try, you will only produce gray matter that's forgettable for everybody.

2) I only talked about award winning works because I'd assume that if you study literature, you'd probably be forced to read them. But nobody's forcing any of us to watch anime we don't find interesting.

Well, perhaps I have already said too much. It's not like I'd try to make you drop this show, after all. I just saw the past myself in your plan to change your views in order to keep watching this show despite finding it distasteful.

[lelouch]

(Things)

1. I don't think Mikasa is a psychopath. If someone saved your life as a young child from robbers, and put you in a position where you had to kill at a young age, I find it reasonable to devote your life to protecting them given you have the skill (which she does).

2. It's science fiction... I'm really not sure why you're so annoyed by all of these things. Do you get annoyed by Gundam Seed because everyone knows that hyper-particle beams of that size clearly need at least 4.2 seconds to power up and the beam should be red, not blue?

3. I still don't understand what sort of "message" you think is trying to be pushed through here, as well as why you find it in poor taste considering most adult anime does have at least some sort of message to some degree. Which is why I recommended Pokemon... Or maybe teletubbies. Although the Ukrainian government believes teletubbies, too, is pushing its own hidden agenda and has banned it so perhaps maybe just Pokemon. Or those chibi specials.

[Pandadice]

Hold on, what parts of Mikasa constitues as psychopathy for you?

I thought it was the "I'll serve Eren even if it means destroying humanity" line of thought. She doesn't seem vengence-driven.

Yeah, my use of vengeance there was misleading. I consider Mikasa a psychopath because of her complete absence of emotion outside of her relationship with Eren. If anything, her relationship with Eren is the one thing holding her back from complete psychopathy, in a way, and in more of a quasi-psychopathic state. Again, I'm sorry I can't be more specific with details without just going back and rewatching it, but her cold, calculated, emotionless intellectual nature is the main reason I would say she's a psychopath. the show just sort of comes off saying, as I interpreted it, "hey look how awesome you can be if you eliminate your emotions!" She's all about being a nietzschean eagle and eating some sheep. But then also, I guess you could consider her devotion to Eren as excessively self-interested, so maybe that obsession adds to her psychopathy. Yeah, it's like you said.

1) There's no reason to force you to watch any anime if you find some aspects of it too annoying. In the past I used to struggle through a lot of shows but these days I drop them like a rock if I don't find them entertaining enough. Because they are meant to be just entertainment. This is related to an opinion I have developed: An excellent story will please some immeasurably but annoy the rest just as much. You can't please everybody. If you try, you will only produce gray matter that's forgettable for everybody.

haha, my bad, I guess I got a little too into dissecting your post.

Trust me, I try not to struggle through anything anymore. I don't watch very much anime anymore, and the little Tv anime I try to watch I often quit watching. I learned my lesson years ago about struggling through poor anime. I mostly just consume anime through sakuga MADs, indie shorts, and an occasional feature film. And I'm not trying to be rude or condescending here, but do you really consider this to be an "excellent story"? I know (from experience) that the bar for an anime story line is pretty low, but honestly SnK comes across as pretty straightforward stuff. The settings unique and it's more gutsy with killing off characters, but besides such idiosyncrasies the story seemed pretty standard. I dunno, I have trouble watching anything these days that's not from HBO. But that said, there's gotta be something (probably the awesome sky-surfing) in SnK that kept me watching it for 13 episodes.

2. It's science fiction... I'm really not sure why you're so annoyed by all of these things. Do you get annoyed by Gundam Seed because everyone knows that hyper-particle beams of that size clearly need at least 4.2 seconds to power up and the beam should be red, not blue?

This is really interesting. Here I thought I could point to people criticizing piss-poor science in anime as a way to legitimize my moral complaints, but you've flipped it so that to complain about dubious, dues ex machina science is somehow beneath any true "anime" fan. Your "it's science fiction" argument might as well be "it's a tv show dude." In this way, really, you're eliminating the possibility to complain about anything within the series (beyond, perhaps, "oh no my favorite character died" or something). You've totally just severed any expectation of realism within the series.

However, as literature and film are mediums which actively influence the spectator's worldview, I think, even disregarding the poor science point, it is entirely legitimate to complain about the types of morals being presented within a series.

3. I still don't understand what sort of "message" you think is trying to be pushed through here, as well as why you find it in poor taste considering most adult anime does have at least some sort of message to some degree. Which is why I recommended Pokemon... Or maybe teletubbies. Although the Ukrainian government believes teletubbies, too, is pushing its own hidden agenda and has banned it so perhaps maybe just Pokemon. Or those chibi specials.

See, it is not merely that it has a message (any literature or series has a message--regardless of the authors intent--because it's all about how the viewer reacts or interprets what the text is saying), but my issue with the series stems from the fact that I feel like I'm watching nazi propaganda when I try to watch this.

And if it was just me watching it, who cares. But I watch this and see nazi propaganda, and then I see it being the most popular and highest praised series of the year. That's when I get concerned, because it seems to be promoting a fascistic, all-the-bad-parts-of-Nietzsche worldview.

But, after discussing it with the fellows here at gotwoot, I see that it's almost expected that I'm disgusted with what I'm watching. It's been flipped around so that rather than a glorification of violence, it's actually a critique and examination of such violence. But honestly, even such a reading of it is subjective and equally
valid either way. It's like This trailer for the Cobra Special Forces movie. I see that trailer as a harsh critique of the US military, calling it out as "the bad guys." While this is one way of looking at it, it can also be interpreted as a patriotic celebration of militarism (and given the website devoted to signing up for and promoting the whole thing, I think that's more what the ad campaign was going for). See? The moral ambiguity of the thing makes it all subjectively determined by the viewer. In this sense, I was watching SnK as a celebration of violence, while others are considering it a critique. There's no right way to read into it, but I gotta say I like the way you guys are approaching it.

Further, as I said previously, maybe you can just "turn your brain off" so to speak when you're watching this stuff, but I just sort of naturally react to and critique what I'm being presented with in films/tv shows. To form a raw intellectual reaction is the same as experiencing a basic emotional response. I feel like I'm just repeating myself. You guys are free to enjoy the series, it's whatever. I think I might watch some more in a new mindset; hopefully i get to see a lot more grappling hook action.

[DarthEnderX]

Why is nobody talking about the new episode yet?!?!

[darkshadow]

Because some of us are lazy and wait for links in this thread.
Thanks for nothing.

[Buffalobiian]

Waiting, yes. gg is going to be late. I'm okay with horriblesubs in the meanwhile, but I just haven't been watching this show promptly anyway.

HS - Episode 19

[David75]

While the ep was overly long, we got some piece of data and that Titan has been stopped, though we don't know if it's permanent.

They clearly used that new Titan as a plot device. Worked quite well. I just fear they'll have us chew on that till the end of the season, end it with a cliffhanger when we're not even sure there will be another season...

[MFauli]

finally got that bitch!

But from the preview it seems like something will go wrong.

#regarding Eren´s failed transformation, I thought it might be related to a lack of iron. Like, he might not have eaten well enough for several days or something, so when he touched the metallic spoon, the transformation reaction could finally work again.

Also, it just has to be repeated: The music in this anime is incredible. And I´m so happy that the same composer works on the soundtrack for Monolith Soft´s "X" for Wii U. It´s insta-recognizable how similiar the music is, haha.

[NeoCybercoin]

Trailer looks pretty sweet as well. Music also reminds me of Team Medical Dragon and Guilty Crown. Turns out...also the same guy :P