That's not such a bad idea, at least for a ninja village. I'm sure they'd get plenty of volunteers to die (i.e., be sacrificed) for the previous guy, knowing that somebody else is volunteering next. And when they run out of volunteers they could kill off Mizuki instead of letting him run wild in the anime fillers.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
Actually, you WOULD have to kill everyone at least once if you want to make all of them immortal, even if you daisy chain it. You can't be resurrected as an immortal if you haven't died. Plus, if you want to bring back people from the past as well as make everyone in the present immortal, you would need more bodies than there are people...Originally Posted by UChessmaster
So yeah, the moon eye plan has considerably less hassle and works better overall.
You don't have to permanently kill everyone, just put them into the Edo Tensei and immediately resurrect them. It's not "death" it's more like a surgical procedure you go under for.
The Infinite Tsukiyomi would end the human race, not create a utopia, since everyone under the genjutsu is going to die of starvation pretty quickly.
Not if they use the zetsu bodies so they don't have to eat or drink or take dumps anymore.
I don't think it would go as smoothly as you think, especially if it is a prolonged process. What if some immortals decide they would rather resurrect someone from their past than someone from the present. There are only so many bodies to go around. It could lead to a real mess. I can already picture a scenario where immortals would keep farms of regular human beings and use them to bring back all sorts of people from the past, one by one.
Infinite Tsukiyomi on the other hand has the advantage of being instantaneous. No chance of conflict that could result from some people having immortality while others don't. Also, Tsukiyomi can completely alter one's perception of time. So it should be possible to create a faux eternity where only a moment has passed in the real world. They really won't have to worry about starvation for a long long time, and maybe by then they could figure out a way of getting out of the genjutsu world. They would literally have forever to think about it...
If they step out of line, they'd have their personalities erased and be put under the Kage's command. (At least, under this hypothetical scenario) This would mean no Uchiha could be revived, since TWO of them managed to get out from under the mind control aspect of Edo Tensai. But, otherwise, even two Hokage and lots of other dudes (including other Kage) couldn't manage it.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
Its not really a utopia anymore if you have to be mind controlled by some higher authority and can be erased if you step out of line...
Mind control only happens if their personalities are erased. It would be punitive.
For example, a guy like Kakashi would probably never betray Konoha, and so he would keep his free will for eternity. A guy like Orochimaru would (hypothetically) have had his mind wiped when he betrayed Konoha and became a missing nin.
Or are you complaining that this is a stratified social structure, with a Kage at the top? Defining utopia seems somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
I was considering the flaws of using Edo Tensei to "solve all the problems in the world and create a utopia", like Y had originally suggested.
I don't want to get into the specifics of defining a Utopia either, but I don't think making everyone immortal would go very far towards resolving conflict if there is still a way to mind control and erase their personalities. You have just introduced a mechanism for 'killing an immortal'. Now what is to stop different factions from fighting each other if there is a way to permanently erase them.
At the very least, I imagine World Peace to be a characteristic of a Utopia. Setting up a stratified social structure with checks and balances could go a long way towards mitigating conflict and preventing chaos (and is pretty much what people end up doing normally anyways), but it offers no guarantees of World Peace.
Last edited by Splash!; Sat, 09-29-2012 at 01:47 PM.
At the very least, information secrecy. Nobody but the Kages need to know how to kill off a zombie's personality. They're ninjas, right? They should be able to keep secrets.
Conflict will never be eliminated, because conflict is inherent to the world insofar as different people will always be in competition over scarce resources. Conflict can be resolved peacefully or through force. But removing the necessity for food, for example, eliminates a huge source of conflict -- people will actually fight for food, since they normally need it to live. Real wars are over necessities like food and water, or strategic resources to necessary to defend the sustainability of their economies.
By removing these physical needs, the only source of conflicts to remain will be unnecessary luxuries. Even if zombies do fight over them, nobody gets hurt (except a little butthurt for having their luxury item stolen -- I am ignoring scenarios like Shikamaru burying Hidan alive...). Suddenly, instead of war being a terrible burden to the world, it is just a minor inconvenience in an eternal future. Peace will be effectively redefined to include war, since it does no permanent harm, much like how shooting rubber bands at people does not preclude world peace.
Also, the zombies will have an eternity to learn these lessons.
Although this is all purely hypothetical, it does seem like a big WTF that none of the Kage, Orochimaru, etc. never thought of this.
Last edited by poopdeville; Sat, 09-29-2012 at 06:12 PM.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
^ So going back to the point I have been making in my previous posts, Infinite Tsukiyomi already accomplishes all of that and happens instantaneously. You are assuming the preexistence of a well established society of immortal zombies. I have been saying the transformation into such a society poses a huge problem in itself, since it is likely to be a slow process. If you could turn everyone into an immortal zombie within a matter of seconds or minutes, it could probably work out, but I don't see that happening.
Also, I think its a pretty bad idea to let the Kages have complete control everyone. In a society of immortals, we have given a few select individuals with the power to control and pass judgement on everyone else (by erasing their personalities). What's to stop the one of the kages from exploiting this ability down the road.
I'm not presupposing anything. In particular, I explicitly mentioned that the zombies will have an eternity to learn the lessons of peace. You say "since [the transformation] is likely to be a slow process" but have provided no actual arguments or examples as to why that would cause a problem.
We already know what happens when a tyrant uses edo tensai. He raises an army to do his dirty work. But we're not talking about a tyrant. We're talking about the Hokage.
Also, how is the potential for coercion through mind control worse than the mind control the Moon's Eye Plan depends on?
Presumably the fact that they are in charge, and would therefore have nothing to gain.Also, I think its a pretty bad idea to let the Kages have complete control everyone. In a society of immortals, we have given a few select individuals with the power to control and pass judgement on everyone else (by erasing their personalities). What's to stop the one of the kages from exploiting this ability down the road.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
If for this hypothetical situation to work, the hokage has control of everyone, he would need to be immortal to retain that control, so somebody would need to use edo tensei to revive him, and that person would have control of him.
Huh? I was talking about the daisy-chaining approach taking time. To convert a person into an immortal, you need to first kill them, then summon them using a living human being as a vessel. To get everyone to become an immortal, you need to repeat this process over and over again for all the human beings in the world. Of course it will take awhile...
"I explicitly mentioned that the zombies will have an eternity to learn the lessons of peace" <- You need all of them to become zombies before this even happens. During the slow conversion process, you will have a mixture of both immortals and regular human beings. And hence what I said earlier:
In a world where everyone has been rendered unkillable, I don't see what is to be gained by giving someone that kind of control. That isn't the issue, the problem is making everyone an immortal to begin with. Sure, the Hokages can oversee the conversion process, but I am not so convinced they would be saintly enough to do whats fair from all the way to the end. What if one of them would rather a close relative or past acquaintance be revived? Doing so would leave one less vessel for the people in the present.
For the Moon's Eye plan, I am assuming the caster will be put under the same Genjustsu as everyone else. Furthermore, there are no limits on who can be "brought back".
Last edited by Splash!; Sun, 09-30-2012 at 02:47 AM.
Zombies can't have children can they? So no one would be able to experience what it is to have children or family. I'm sure many would oppose such a thing.
Edo tensei would in no way guarantee any sort of peace. Someone will figure out how to un-immortalize their enemies. Feuds run deeper than the need to eat...
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