Naruto Chapter 598

[Sidnne]

I just don't see how Izuna fits in with the theme of the Naturoverse. That theme being "I've been abandoned/rejected/not accepted, nobody understands/loves/accepts me, but I'll show them!" It began with Naruto in the very first chapter, and has been replayed over and over again with Haku, Gaara, Kimmimaru, Sasuke, Nagato, Kabuto, even the Bijuu. Obito fits in with that theme.

Anything sounds better when you try to dress one side up and mock the other one. Izuna Uchiha is a non-character with zero lines of dialogue in the entire series and a reveal of him would turn the entire proceedings into another generic Uchiha brother wankfest, while Obito's bonds of friendship slowly turning into bitter mistrust and hatred reflects the Naruto/Sasuke relationship.

Jiraiya : Orochimaru, Kakashi : Obito, Naruto : Sasuke.

[Y]

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. The series really is all about different responses to that fundamental crisis.

[DB_Hunter]

Jiraiya and Orochimaru, as well as Naruto and Sasuke, had their relationships turn sour slowly until they became opponents. Kakashi and Obito don't fit this mould, they both parted on strong bonds. Madara and Izuna vs Itachi and Sasuke shows the interactions between two sets of brothers. How both sets brought such destruction to Konoha and it is up to Sasuke to bascially to break that cycle of Uchiha hatred for Konoha, aided obviously by Naruto.

The Kakashi/Obtio theme seems too independent whereas the Izuna/Madara theme ties in with the fate of Naruto, the main character of the series. This fits in with the current theme of how to achieve peace in the Shinobi world where there are two options. Force, either softly via Tobi/Izuna or brute strength via Madara or Peaceful coexistance, the option fuelled by friendship and love championed by Naruto and being followed by the Kages.

[Sidnne]

Where has February been? He's usually right on point with calling people idiots for mentioning Obito. Him and b1gdawg would get along great.

[Y]

Bigdawg is a really obvious gimmick account btw.

[darkshadow]

Clearly everything points to Tobi being Obito, but I find there are just too many problems with this.
This post will be about why he shouldn't be obito.

First off there is a clear problem with obito being alive at all.
Yes perhaps he activated MS as he was dying, but he was still clearly crushed beforehand.
Now there is obviously something strange with tobi's body, so if they are one and the same we need a good explanation on how obito survived his injuries long enough to transition it into tobi's body; right now that shit is literally magic, unless you want to accept that some crippled near death teenager somehow crawled into oro's lair and injected himself with a syringe of that sweet senju juice.

Second, there is a huge, heck, gigantic problem with obito's death itself.
After minato roflstomped kakashi's assailants, does anyone believe they wouldn't recover the body?
In fact minato could've easily done this himself by just teleporting the rocks away, or just smashing them with his rasengan, or summon a toad etc..
And if he did do that, why would he hide that the body allegedly disappeared? Anything that happened here to circumvent this from happening is either insanely shitty writing or some deus ex machina that prevented minato from recovering the body at any timeframe.

Thirdly, obito and kakashi parted on strong bonds and unless something happened that turned him incredibly insane, which should be something substantial, I doubt rin's off-screen death would've caused him to want to murder the entire village of konoha twice.
Also, even if Rin was the cause of his insanity/hatred, she clearly didn't die right after obito, why the fuck would he hide that he survived? And if someone was nursing him in a comatose state or whatever, that brings us right back at point one.

Fourthly, controlling the kyuubi is more than just having sharingan, hashirama used some crazy sealing stuff to just unbind kyuubi from madara. If it was that easy, kakashi (or anyone with sharingan) should be able to do it too.

Fifthly, the oh so discussed power difference.
The argument I heard here over and over is: "oh tobi is just phasing out it's no biggie".
Problem with this stems all the way back to sasuke vs lee; even though sasuke could perfectly see lee, his body could not keep up at all.
Tobi kept up with minato, a genius hokage level ninja, whilst obito was nothing compared to kakashi; kakashi in turn could not keep up with minato.
Then there is all the prep to get the kyuubi etc..; all of this points to someone who had a lot of time.

This point however could be adressed if the kamui dimension does indeed have a different passage of time

Oh and extensiveuseofmangekyoumakesyoublindetc..

[Sidnne]

First off there is a clear problem with obito being alive at all.
Yes perhaps he activated MS as he was dying, but he was still clearly crushed beforehand.
Now there is obviously something strange with tobi's body, so if they are one and the same we need a good explanation on how obito survived his injuries long enough to transition it into tobi's body; right now that shit is literally magic, unless you want to accept that some crippled near death teenager somehow crawled into oro's lair and injected himself with a syringe of that sweet senju juice.

We've seen plenty of characters survive worse in this manga. Neji lived with a 3 foot diameter hole in his chest.

Fourthly, controlling the kyuubi is more than just having sharingan, hashirama used some crazy sealing stuff to just unbind kyuubi from madara. If it was that easy, kakashi (or anyone with sharingan) should be able to do it too.

I don't think it's just having the sharingan, I think you have to be an Uchiha. That may have been stated or implied somewhere, I can't remember though.

Fifthly, the oh so discussed power difference.
The argument I heard here over and over is: "oh tobi is just phasing out it's no biggie".
Problem with this stems all the way back to sasuke vs lee; even though sasuke could perfectly see lee, his body could not keep up at all.
Tobi kept up with minato, a genius hokage level ninja, whilst obito was nothing compared to kakashi; kakashi in turn could not keep up with minato.
Then there is all the prep to get the kyuubi etc..; all of this points to someone who had a lot of time.

At no point was Tobi ever able to keep up with Minato. Minato was way too fast for him and it took less than a chapter for Minato to kick his ass. Minato also sealed him from being able to control the Kyuubi.


Obviously we are going to get a flashback to explain how Obito survived, why he is seeking revenge, and what happened to him in between then and now. Kakashi will no doubt ask him these questions, and they will all be answered in the next few chapters, unless Kishi jumps back to the kage fight or Sasuke and Oro's Incredible Journey just to keep us waiting.

[darkshadow]

We've seen plenty of characters survive worse in this manga. Neji lived with a 3 foot diameter hole in his chest.

3 foot? I think you mean 3 inch; and no we haven't seen anyone survive anything worse, obito literally had more than half of his body utterly pulverised. Lee hardly recovered from a broken leg.

I don't think it's just having the sharingan, I think you have to be an Uchiha. That may have been stated or implied somewhere, I can't remember though.

This hasn't been stated anywhere.

At no point was Tobi ever able to keep up with Minato. Minato was way too fast for him and it took less than a chapter for Minato to kick his ass. Minato also sealed him from being able to control the Kyuubi.

I say he kept up, otherwise minato's first stab would've murdered him

Is not a problem, in a world FULL of ninjas that can do all kind of random techniques, is not a stretch that one of these ninjas found a half dead Uchiha and saw the benefits of having a sharingan on his side.

And this is exactly why the body had to be recovered, even if there were no personal sentiments, the uchiha body should've been recovered or disposed of properly to protect secrets.

I love this argument, very well thought out, that said, weren`t they at war at that point? it would be waaaaaay to risky to go into enemy territory to get one dead body under a pile of rocks, and if you think the 4th should get his body, what about the potential thousands of bodies left behind, should he pick those up too?

That's why I said at any timeframe, he could've gone back after the war was over, as the should've.
And yes he should've personally done it, since obito was his pupil.
And thirdly, it wouldn't be risky at all, minato already disposed of the enemies in that area, him teleporting the rocks away/destroying them or getting a toad to move them would literally take less then 1 minute; remember how he teleported that gigantic tailed beast bomb away? Yeah that took 2 seconds.

As i said, Sasuke handled the Kyuubi with ease, i`m presuming that the whole Kyuubi incident happened about 2 or 3 years after Obito`s "death", is not too hard to believe he learned some tailed beast manipulation in that time period right?

Sasuke supressed some leaking sealed chakra, that can impossibly be compared to fully mindcontrolling a fully powered kyuubi. Remember that the kyuubi had all of its power back then, not half.

Naruto did more growth than Obito/Tobi in like... a year? Obito also knew about the 4th fighting style, being his pupil and all.

What is this referring to? Because naruto was training with jiraiya for 2.5 years and he still had to team up with sakura to take the bell from Kakashi.

[Sidnne]

3 foot? I think you mean 3 inch; and no we haven't seen anyone survive anything worse, obito literally had more than half of his body utterly pulverised. Lee hardly recovered from a broken leg.

Sorry, I didn't personally measure the hole. And Lee is irrelevant, because he's a drunk.

I say he kept up, otherwise minato's first stab would've murdered him

So... not murdered by Minato's first stab = super powered beyond belief. Got it.

How do you know that Tobi didn't already have his head in the other dimension before Minato even turned around? As we saw in the previous chapter, he is capable of having only portions of his body phased out. He could have had everything except for the hand he grabbed Minato with phased into the other dimension already.

Other than not being killed by the first stab, Tobi was completely and utterly dominated in that fight.

And this is exactly why the body had to be recovered, even if there were no personal sentiments, the uchiha body should've been recovered or disposed of properly to protect secrets.

That's why I said at any timeframe, he could've gone back after the war was over, as the should've.
And yes he should've personally done it, since obito was his pupil.
And thirdly, it wouldn't be risky at all, minato already disposed of the enemies in that area, him teleporting the rocks away/destroying them or getting a toad to move them would literally take less then 1 minute; remember how he teleported that gigantic tailed beast bomb away? Yeah that took 2 seconds.

Well, maybe that's why Obito is mad then. He is butthurt because nobody came back for him.

[Tofu #2]

I don't think it's just having the sharingan, I think you have to be an Uchiha. That may have been stated or implied somewhere, I can't remember though.

No because when danzou revealed his sharingans and hashirama head, tobi suggested Danzou was trying to gain control of the 9tails

Sorry, I didn't personally measure the hole. And Lee is irrelevant, because he's a drunk.

Are you a fucking troll? You didn't personally measure the hole but you originally state it's a 3 foot hole?

Shit you guys are getting pretty worked up about this. Next week is just gonna be a 5 page thread of I TOLD YOU SO

[UChessmaster]

Yeah, there`s probably a ninja mall somewhere that sells the 1st cells.

[Y]

I don't get the fixation on Minato coming back for the body. There hasn't been a single scene of anyone recovering corpses in this comic, everyone would have assumed Obito's body was crushed into a red smear by the rock slide, etc. There are like 40,000 dead ninjas in this current war, do you think a major part of the war effort was recovering all their corpses? Plus, if we assume it is Obito and he teleported away, when someone came back to recover the body they would have found a lot of his blood and crushed up skin/bones and assumed that grotesque scene was all that remained of him.

[DB_Hunter]

We really are not going to solve this conclusively one way or another until we find out for sure, which I would say kudos to Kishimoto for writing it in a way that has given rise to two strong arguments.

In addition to the points made above, I would once again say that the continuing presence of Madara with the departure of the other Edo Tensei fighters would make no sense if he does not have a continuing influence on the story apart from hax powers. We know the Kage's can't defeat him now, the only way he could go is if he finds emotional peace. That sort of thing could happen if his brother were still about and he could get some connection from him. Unless of course Kakashi/Tobi Kamui him to another dimension or Madara dissapears after achieving peace in a meeting with Sasuke, his Uchiha heir.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

We really are not going to solve this conclusively one way or another until we find out for sure, which I would say kudos to Kishimoto for writing it in a way that has given rise to two strong arguments.

Yeah I was certain it was Obito till I read the last chapter where he foreshadowed it hard as a motha. Then that tripped me up cause it read too much like a set up for the ol' bait n switch.


Anyway I like how Kakashi used one of his three? four? remaining kamui and Naruto repaid his golden opportunity by trying to take out the mask... a target further away than his body was so if there's a case to be made for how far away he was that's why it didn't do critical damage to his entire fucking head.

Kindof bothers me how we only really get to see Kakashi's true potential as a shinobi in the Gaiden arc. Almost everywhere else except the first few arcs he is just simply "Sharingan Kakashi". Its like fine use it to make your Raikiri more accurate but using it in every fight to the point where you're killing yourself with it gets a bit old after the first.... idk... death?

[UChessmaster]

Look guys, this is a fun discussion and all, but are people seriously doubting the possibility of a dying character surviving in a manga about ninjas where everything is possible!?

[DB_Hunter]

I guess people may feel if characters had to survive they would have ones like Itachi and Jiraiya, not emo gits like Obito potentially.

[Sidnne]

Awww, see? You're learning manners and civility. I'm proud of you.

[viperwasp]

I don't care who it is as long as it makes sense and is a big reveal. To be honest I don't like the prospects of it being Obito or Madaras brother. I would not understand the amount of hype and such... I want it to be something shocking and unexpected... and bring something new to the story. A twist! But theres not to many people in my opinion that could fit that bill. But ignoring ALL past and current evidence if it was someone like the 1st or second hokage which is generally cannot be with what we know. That would be a big reveal. Like maybe all this time one of the most praised and trusted hero Ninja from the past turns out to be evil or bad etc. But there would have to be plot to go along with it. It has to make sense!

Pain was an awesome character and I liked the secrets that went along with him! At first you thought he was the head of akatsuki then there was the whole thing about none of the bodies being him. And the whole secret to his abilities. The mysteriousness of the Rinnigan which in my opinion has yet to be truly explained. Then you had the whole back story and his involvement with jiraiya and it all concluded with the story jiraiya wrote and the predictions of the great toad sage or whatever the thing was called.

I don't want the whole pain arc to be more special then this one! Tobi is at the moment the main villain in basically all of Naruto. Even though we all sure he won't be the final villain. Pain killed a main character... Tobi feels like he has done almost nothing in comparison even though he personally set a lot of things up. Heck without Kabuto I am sure the United Ninja Army would have mopped the floor with Tobi by now... Kabuto was more then 50% of the force in Tobis army. Then again without Kabuto Itachi would not have been brought back. But itachi mainly defeated Kabuto so...

So in final I am saying that whoever Tobi is... Obito or not... it has to be more then just a person who he is... the reasoning behind everything has to go somewhere and I expect a nice twist! And it being Obito is silly and retarded if it's a... Obito disliked war and people dying so this is his answer to it all. He went emo or got corrupted with hatred just like Sasuke and or pain kind of. Do something cool like Obito merged with the other half of dark zetsu or something like that and have good plot behind it. Even if Tobi is not the final villan he needs to have more impact on the characters and plot then pain did... right now Tobi does not. And if it's simply Madaras bother or Obito without something smart to go along with it... then he might as well be a random ninja with no purpose.

I hate the other speculations about future sasuke etc... lol But at least they want it to be more then a weak old forgotten character who survived became strong and manipulative and learned to hate the world etc. It's been done before inside and outside of naruto... if it kishi does go that route with the story please make it more interesting! Surprise us!

[boostingwild]

I don't care who it is as long as it makes sense and is a big reveal. To be honest I don't like the prospects of it being Obito or Madaras brother. I would not understand the amount of hype and such... I want it to be something shocking and unexpected... and bring something new to the story. A twist! But theres not to many people in my opinion that could fit that bill. But ignoring ALL past and current evidence if it was someone like the 1st or second hokage which is generally cannot be with what we know. That would be a big reveal. Like maybe all this time one of the most praised and trusted hero Ninja from the past turns out to be evil or bad etc. But there would have to be plot to go along with it. It has to make sense!

Pain was an awesome character and I liked the secrets that went along with him! At first you thought he was the head of akatsuki then there was the whole thing about none of the bodies being him. And the whole secret to his abilities. The mysteriousness of the Rinnigan which in my opinion has yet to be truly explained. Then you had the whole back story and his involvement with jiraiya and it all concluded with the story jiraiya wrote and the predictions of the great toad sage or whatever the thing was called.

I don't want the whole pain arc to be more special then this one! Tobi is at the moment the main villain in basically all of Naruto. Even though we all sure he won't be the final villain. Pain killed a main character... Tobi feels like he has done almost nothing in comparison even though he personally set a lot of things up. Heck without Kabuto I am sure the United Ninja Army would have mopped the floor with Tobi by now... Kabuto was more then 50% of the force in Tobis army. Then again without Kabuto Itachi would not have been brought back. But itachi mainly defeated Kabuto so...

So in final I am saying that whoever Tobi is... Obito or not... it has to be more then just a person who he is... the reasoning behind everything has to go somewhere and I expect a nice twist! And it being Obito is silly and retarded if it's a... Obito disliked war and people dying so this is his answer to it all. He went emo or got corrupted with hatred just like Sasuke and or pain kind of. Do something cool like Obito merged with the other half of dark zetsu or something like that and have good plot behind it. Even if Tobi is not the final villan he needs to have more impact on the characters and plot then pain did... right now Tobi does not. And if it's simply Madaras bother or Obito without something smart to go along with it... then he might as well be a random ninja with no purpose.

I hate the other speculations about future sasuke etc... lol But at least they want it to be more then a weak old forgotten character who survived became strong and manipulative and learned to hate the world etc. It's been done before inside and outside of naruto... if it kishi does go that route with the story please make it more interesting! Surprise us!

I always read here and never comment...but

I think it would be cool if we find out that it is indeed orichimaru in sasukes body from the future. On sasukes trip with orichimaru he takes control of his body and gets the perfect vessel he always wanted. Now since he is from future he is trying to manipulate sasukes from now because in future sasuke is the one who actually defeats him. So he came back in time to stop that and gain control of 9 tails so it won't happen. And when itachi showed sasuke the visions he also warned sasuke about this and that's why sasuke summoned orichimaru and that's the twist.

[UChessmaster]

EDIT: Double post?