Sword Art Online

[Kraco]

The difference there is that Kirito was aware of Sinon and knew the shot was coming.

Realistically at least, there's no reason they should have thought Death Gun knew they were there. And if he didn't know they were there, it should have been impossible for him to dodge that shot.

That's exactly where I disagree. You say realistically they shouldn't have expected Death Gun to know. That might be the case as long as they aren't taking him seriously. But if Kirito (let's forget Sinon for now since she's only playing a game) had taken this murderer seriously, yes, apparently there's a reason to tell somebody to take a murderer seriously, then he wouldn't have assumed Death Gun doesn't know but instead that he might know. That's how it goes. When you play a game, you think overly optimistically, it's just a game, after all. But when you are cornering a deathly opponent in RL (which this would equal with its real death), you think of everything that could go wrong. Not that I'd be any expert, but this seems like common sense.

Besides, they had been observing the bridge from that same spot for a good long while. It wasn't a particularly covered spot either (Sinon pretty much admitted as much by thinking Dyne should check his six o'clock), plus Kirito actually assaulted Sinon right there. They had talked all the time, no, make that talked and shouted. If Death Gun had been observing the area for a bit before walking in (he's a sniper, after all), he would have noticed those two easily. He wouldn't even have needed to cheat. Besides, Sinon already has some kind of special vision, maybe night vision, so who knows, DG might have even thermal imaging in that skull mask... He's leaking coolant every now and then!

[Buffalobiian]

Does that even matter though? DG might have seen us.. so the shot won't work.. So let's not shoot because it'll be futile anyway? You give it a shot, and if it fails then it fails. Evaluating that would actually add in time for hesitation. If DG hasn't shown signs that he knows where they are, you might as well assume he doesn't.

After all, assuming that he does won't get you anywhere.




(this is assuming no one seriously considered shooting Pale in order to save him)

[MasterOfMoogles]

You guys are overthinking this way too much.
Kirito realized Death Gun was going to kill him for real and had approximately 2 seconds to think about what to do. The natural move for anyone is to try to shoot Death Gun.

[Kraco]

Does that even matter though? DG might have seen us.. so the shot won't work.. So let's not shoot because it'll be futile anyway? You give it a shot, and if it fails then it fails. Evaluating that would actually add in time for hesitation. If DG hasn't shown signs that he knows where they are, you might as well assume he doesn't.

Like I said before, Kirito should have charged himself the moment Sinon shot, not counting on that proxy shot to solve everything.

(this is assuming no one seriously considered shooting Pale in order to save him)

Since the dude's avatar would still remain there, only labelled Dead, Killed, or whatever it was, I wouldn't count on it. Kirito hasn't ever even died in this game, so he wouldn't necessarily know if the player is still linked to the corpse. Or if the corpse is basically just a static object and the player is already in the lobby or something, watching the games with the audience. He surely didn't have time to think about it. Stopping DG seemed like a better chance. Only Kirito wasn't taking this seriously and thus naturally failed when the opponent is literally deadly serious.

[MasterOfMoogles]

I don't think your expectation that Kirito should have immediately taken off running towards a target he had no hope of reaching and every expectation it would be dealt with is reasonable.

In fact, moving early could potentially give away their position. He would need to wait for the shot to be fired. At that point, you would also be unable to stop yourself from waiting to see the result.

He looks like he is taking it pretty seriously to me. He can't be perfect and predict every possible scenario, though.

[Kraco]

a target he had no hope of reaching

No hope of reaching? How do you know that? Only Death Gun would have known that, because he would have been the one making the decision. Pale Dude could have been shot in any case, only Death Gun knows, but at least Kirito might have had a chance of stopping DG before the next victim (who turned out to be Sinon, like I've been suggesting for a while because associating with Kirito raises her worth as a target. DG happens to possess a shared history with Kirito, after all).

every expectation it would be dealt with is reasonable.

Uh... Right. Kirito has been doing nothing but dodging and deflecting bullets as long as he's been in this game, so it's totally reasonable to expect nobody else would dodge a bullet? I don't think so. Kirito is doing it so naturally, like there's nothing strange about it, that he surely wouldn't expect nobody else to be capable of the same. Especially when he knows DG is also from a sword fighting game.

[DarthEnderX]

Uh... Right. Kirito has been doing nothing but dodging and deflecting bullets as long as he's been in this game, so it's totally reasonable to expect nobody else would dodge a bullet? I don't think so.

AGAIN, Kirito has always been aware of that incoming fire.

Kirito has never dodged a shot taken by a sniper from a hidden location. Because there's nothing to dodge.

And, again, there's no reason Death Gun should have been able to know the shot was incoming. In fact, the fact that Sinon's shot DIDN'T have a beam on it means that her position hadn't been revealed yet.

So...again, we're back to Death Gun using cheats, or at the very least, having a ton of points in stats nobody is aware of the effects of or something.

[Kraco]

AGAIN, Kirito has always been aware of that incoming fire.

Death Gun was aware of the incoming fire. How else would he have dodged? What's the argument supposed to be about? I'm trying to state the most obvious explanation, that DG knew they were there and thus was able to dodge like, for example, Kirito would have also dodged in that position.

Kirito has never dodged a shot taken by a sniper from a hidden location. Because there's nothing to dodge.

Yeah, because he has never fought in a fight where a serious sniper would have tried to snipe him. Sinon lost her cool and was aiming at an object next to him. Proves absolutely nothing.

And, again, there's no reason Death Gun should have been able to know the shot was incoming. In fact, the fact that Sinon's shot DIDN'T have a beam on it means that her position hadn't been revealed yet.

I don't think you see your own beams, do you? We have no idea what Death Gun was seeing there. We have never got his point of view during combat.

So...again, we're back to Death Gun using cheats, or at the very least, having a ton of points in stats nobody is aware of the effects of or something.

Who knows. So far we haven't seen anything else that would necessarily need to be cheating but the deadly pistol itself.

[DarthEnderX]

Death Gun was aware of the incoming fire. How else would he have dodged?

Because he's cheating.

Yeah, because he has never fought in a fight where a serious sniper would have tried to snipe him. Sinon lost her cool and was aiming at an object next to him. Proves absolutely nothing.

So HOW exactly would he dodge a sniper shot?

Kirito dodges shots either by the beam, or by his targets eyes. The first shot of a sniper gives the target neither of those things, so dodging should be impossible.

I don't think you see your own beams, do you?

I was under the impression that those are visible everyone.

Who knows. So far we haven't seen anything else that would necessarily need to be cheating but the deadly pistol itself.

Well, again, the fact that nobody seemed to acknowledge the fact that it's possible to be wearing a cloaking device leads one to believe that it's not just a piece of equipment.

[Buffalobiian]

So HOW exactly would he dodge a sniper shot?

Kirito dodges shots either by the beam, or by his targets eyes. The first shot of a sniper gives the target neither of those things, so dodging should be impossible.

Sinon came to the conclusion that DG already saw her, and thus her position was compromised. A shot fired from a compromised sniper, first or not, will be preceded by an assist-line. If they were visible to all, then Sinon would not have come to that conclusion. She very specifically said it was a system assist (aka assist-lines).

[shinta|hikari]

What Buff said.

I'm surprised people are seriously arguing against Kirito rushing a player with a real lethal weapon from a sniping position.

[Kraco]

I'm surprised people are seriously arguing against Kirito rushing a player with a real lethal weapon from a sniping position.

If Kirito was really concerned about the lethal weapon, he would have logged out already, ongoing contest or not, and called the official to handle his own mess. or rather, do his own job. But as it is, he's probably counting on his ability to deal with a simple semi-automatic pistol considering he has no troubles dodging and deflecting fire from an assault rifle. Looking at how they strolled like a couple from the bridge to the city without bothering to fear ambushes, it's actually certain he counts of his ability. If he fears something, it's his own memories and his inability to deal with them. If he did have a reason not to charge forth, I'd say that was it, not believing Sinon would do his work for him. He's not ready to face Death Gun, and I don't really blame him. One of them has a deadly gun, the other a toy sword, as far as RL goes... I hope this job pays really well!

[DarthEnderX]

Sinon came to the conclusion that DG already saw her

I don't remember this.

[shinta|hikari]

It was said.

[MasterOfMoogles]

If Kirito was really concerned about the lethal weapon, he would have logged out already, ongoing contest or not, and called the official to handle his own mess. or rather, do his own job. But as it is, he's probably counting on his ability to deal with a simple semi-automatic pistol considering he has no troubles dodging and deflecting fire from an assault rifle. Looking at how they strolled like a couple from the bridge to the city without bothering to fear ambushes, it's actually certain he counts of his ability. If he fears something, it's his own memories and his inability to deal with them. If he did have a reason not to charge forth, I'd say that was it, not believing Sinon would do his work for him. He's not ready to face Death Gun, and I don't really blame him. One of them has a deadly gun, the other a toy sword, as far as RL goes... I hope this job pays really well!

I'll repeat this since maybe you didn't see it since I edited:
In fact, moving early could potentially give away their position. He would need to wait for the shot to be fired. At that point, you would also be unable to stop yourself from waiting to see the result.

Rushing forward would actually be counterproductive and doesn't make any sense.

Darth, Sinon explicitly says she must have been seen and that's how Death Gun dodged the shot.

[Kraco]

I'll repeat this since maybe you didn't see it since I edited:
In fact, moving early could potentially give away their position. He would need to wait for the shot to be fired. At that point, you would also be unable to stop yourself from waiting to see the result.

Rushing forward would actually be counterproductive and doesn't make any sense.

He would have seen the result from a running position just as well as from the wondering position. The bottom line is that if DG had had something else to think about, there's a slim chance he wouldn't have shot Pale Dude. If he still had shot, at least Kirito would have quickly been there to accost him. At the very least, if DG had escaped, Kirito would have prevented the speech.

Still, what does any of this matter? Kirito doesn't possess a death gun so even if he managed to defeat Death Gun, wouldn't the guy just respawn elsewhere in the game to continue his fell deeds? He would be out of this contest, but so what? Kirito would actually need to find out DG's true identity. Unless DG is a girl or gay, I don't see how Kirito would do it, with his only social grace being harem building (a damn enviable skill, but won't help with DG unless the dude is interested in group dates).

[MasterOfMoogles]

Would he have been able to see from running? Looked like they were in a wooded area far from the bridge. He wouldn't be able to see through the trees once he ran down.

It doesn't matter at all, but you're making the argument that Kirito somehow isn't taking this seriously and I disagree with both the reasoning and conclusion.

Defeating DG in the tournament only means he can't kill anyone in the tournament. His goal does seem to be to publicly display his power, so that is somewhat of a win for the good guys, but you're definitely right that it doesn't catch him or stop him permanently in any way.

[fireheart]

In fact, moving early could potentially give away their position. He would need to wait for the shot to be fired. At that point, you would also be unable to stop yourself from waiting to see the result.

Rushing forward would actually be counterproductive and doesn't make any sense.

Sinon could have easily kept shooting at Death Gun while Kirito sprinted towards him since she managed to load another bullet before Death Gun even got up to a normal standing position and still had 5 bullets left, that should give Kirito more than a decent chance to reach him. Basically by doing nothing like he did the chances of saving Pale Rider and catching Death Gun will amount to 0% even if running out would only change that to a mere 0.1% at least he would have tried to save a life.



I have to agree with Kraco though if Kirito was serious about catching Death Gun he would have done everything he could to catch him as soon as possible and not allow him the chance to escape. Finding out his real handle name afterwards wouldn't even be hard, just look at a replay of the tournament and watch which name switches over to DEAD at that time. Actually this just means they'd catch Death Gun no matter what Kirito does after this tournament so the only thing that matters is saving people from getting killed by him.

Also why didn't he contact he government dude the moment he realized a member of the PK guild was playing GGO and the most likely suspect of being Death Gun? Nah let's just be emo and deal with this ourselves and get some random dudes killed, they're not part of his harem anyway.

[DarthEnderX]

It was said.

Darth, Sinon explicitly says she must have been seen and that's how Death Gun dodged the shot.

Fair enough. Though there's nothing saying she was right.

I have to agree with Kraco though if Kirito was serious about catching Death Gun he would have done everything he could to catch him as soon as possible and not allow him the chance to escape.

If Kirito was serious about catching Death Gun, there's a ton of stuff he would have done. Like, I dunno, learned how the game he was going to play worked before going into it and entering it's best-of-the-best tournament.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Sinon could have easily kept shooting at Death Gun while Kirito sprinted towards him since she managed to load another bullet before Death Gun even got up to a normal standing position and still had 5 bullets left, that should give Kirito more than a decent chance to reach him. Basically by doing nothing like he did the chances of saving Pale Rider and catching Death Gun will amount to 0% even if running out would only change that to a mere 0.1% at least he would have tried to save a life.

Continuing to shoot after being spotted is just a waste of bullets for a sniper in this game.
I still don't think Kirito running down there makes any sense. How long do you think it would take him to get there? They were pretty far away. Maybe he could run there in like 2-3 minutes? Immediately taking off would be a super unnatural reaction to this situation.

I have to agree with Kraco though if Kirito was serious about catching Death Gun he would have done everything he could to catch him as soon as possible and not allow him the chance to escape. Finding out his real handle name afterwards wouldn't even be hard, just look at a replay of the tournament and watch which name switches over to DEAD at that time. Actually this just means they'd catch Death Gun no matter what Kirito does after this tournament so the only thing that matters is saving people from getting killed by him.

I don't know that catching Death Gun would really be so easy. What are you going to charge him with? Unless they find some kind of evidence, there is no way to prove the player was at all involved in the murder.
Are you even going to be able to get a warrant? I can just imagine the warrant hearing "Judge, we have video evidence of this person shooting the victim... in a video game. The victim then had a heart attack, and we're pretty sure it is the shooter's fault, but we don't really know how. He killed some other guys, too! We read about it on some internet forums."
Before you even get that far, you have to find out who the player is, which seems very difficult given the super sketchy nature of this game company. It would at least be bogged down in some international lawyering for who knows how long.

Also why didn't he contact he government dude the moment he realized a member of the PK guild was playing GGO and the most likely suspect of being Death Gun?

I do agree with this. With this information, the government worker could start checking the list of however many LC members there were (30+?) and then... do what?
I guess he could look up their addresses and start busting down their doors or something in hopes of finding the guy playing the game.

Edit:
Actually, do they even know who was in what guild? Probably not. It would depend on what kind of logs were available and whether or not they have access to them without some subpoenas or something. I would only expect them to have dug up and cataloged basic profile information for each player. So knowing he was in LC is pretty useless.