Sword Art Online

[Y]

You guys must be letting your perspective from reading the books fuck your judgment up. Kirito in the first episode expressed understanding and sympathy to the goals of the crazy, mass murdering game designer. Yes, that's right. The only sense of emotional connection he formed in the first four episodes is with the greatest mass murderer in history. This is your altruistic hero, assclowns.

you mean those 5 who were dead if he didn't intervene before he joined their guild?

ya, he wanted them dead and tricked them!

Why do you think they explored the instant death floor in the first place? Because Kirito, over the course of weeks and months, systematically lied to them about how strong he was, and by extension how strong they were. They assumed (because of Kirito's lies) that they were much stronger than they actually were. If Kirito was never involved with them, they would never have been on the instant death floor getting themselves killed thinking they were strong enough to clear it.

[KrayZ33]

You guys must be letting your perspective from reading the books fuck your judgment up. Kirito in the first episode expressed understanding and sympathy to the goals of the crazy, mass murdering game designer.

nope, he didn't
its simply not what he has said or expressed in the first episode

he admire*d* him yes... well guess he was wrong about him

Why do you think they explored the instant death floor in the first place? Because Kirito, over the course of weeks and months, systematically lied to them about how strong he was, and by extension how strong they were. They assumed (because of Kirito's lies) that they were much stronger than they actually were. If Kirito was never involved with them, they would never have been on the instant death floor getting themselves killed thinking they were strong enough to clear it.

as I said, you guys make it sound like he killed them on purpose
and if he had not saved them, then they would have died long ago, at least thats what the guild and guild leader said right before he decided (after being asked) to join the guild

and to come back to the "Kirito is selfish" discussion
not every MC is "Emiya Shirou" gosh... he's not willing to give up his own life/goals whenever someone asks for a favor, so what?
giving strangers free gear/loot and help them level a bit is more than 95% of players would do and guess what, the community in Swort Art Online is probably the same you'd encounter in WoW
its a miracle that not a single high level starts killing people on the lower-fields while saying: "YOU MAD?! TROLOLOLOLO"

[Dark Dragon]

I'm going to abstain from any more discussion in this thread because i also know too much from reading the novels.

That's probably for the best since i won't have to waste my time and argue with bullshit like

You guys must be letting your perspective from reading the books fuck your judgment up

because clearly, having actual information to make a judgment about a character is wrong.

A lot of you guys are way too convinced of your own opinion over the information (or lack of) that was disclosed so far. I'm reading way too many "obviously" or "definitely" when it's mostly theory that you came up with.

You guys are probably not going to enjoy this anime if you continue to nitpick over every detail. It was already established that there are some problems with this adaption. There are also plenty of hints in the episodes as to the whole situation that is only noticeable to people who read the novels (once again, the fault of the studio). At this rate, I'm worried that they'll leave out more important details that are only revealed through narration.

If the main character bothers you that much, it's probably best to stop watching the show altogether. I doubt that the studio will wise up because they already screwed up 2 important chapters so far.

[Y]

I'm going to abstain from any more discussion in this thread because i also know too much from reading the novels.

That's probably for the best since i won't have to waste my time and argue with bullshit like



because clearly, having actual information to make a judgment about a character is wrong.

You mean, arguing about a different character. The Kirito of the novels is a character that doesn't exist in the show. We're working off what happened in it, not what happened in the material it's adapted from.

nope, he didn't
its simply not what he has said or expressed in the first episode

he admire*d* him yes... well guess he was wrong about him

The tone of awe in his voice when he's thinking of the creator of the game is markedly different from his neutral, detached responses to everything else. In his own mind he still refers to the man as a "genius". He refers to not only "understanding" the rules of the game (which hardly require an admiration of the creator to comprehend) but also his rationale for locking them in the gameworld.

as I said, you guys make it sound like he killed them on purpose
and if he had not saved them, then they would have died long ago, at least thats what the guild and guild leader said right before he decided (after being asked) to join the guild

Oh that makes it totally ok that his negligence got them killed later, he had saved their lives once already. What the fuck? Also, in the subs I watched, the guy does not say that Kirito saved their lives or that they would already be dead, but it can certainly be implied - but that's only because they're fighting much more powerful enemies than they would have.

[KrayZ33]

Utwoots:

A toast to the man we owe our lives too

Oh that makes it totally ok that his negligence got them killed later, he had saved their lives once already. What the fuck?

not what I said but that aside:


he most likely didn't want them to end that way and he regrets not telling them his real level? He went to the guild leader and told him everything, even though he didn't have too, he could've kept going with the "I'm just lvl 20 and couldn't help them " role but he didn't
because it was not his intention to hurt them, he wanted to help them, he wanted them to reach the front lines, he wanted them to reach their goals (or guild-leaders goals) by pushing them, but he pushed too hard. they themselves wanted to reach the front lines as fast as possible.

as I said, you make it sound and look like he loves to bath in the tears of others and is doing all for his own amusement.

[Y]

as I said, you make it sound and look like he loves to bath in the tears of others and is doing all for his own amusement.

First of all, the main character's social dysfunction should be immediately evident. In addition to the comments about the game's creator, in the first episode his home life is presented as a featureless room and his only interaction with his family is through a closed door. Do you not find this image telling in a show about an MMORPG? Kirito finds MMORPG virtual worlds more fulfilling than the real world. Secondly, just because he is deeply dysfunctional does not mean he is a sadist. I don't think the character we've seen in these episodes relates to human beings enough to take pleasure in their discomfort. In episode four, why does he help the girl out? Because she was an innocent person about to die? Because he wants to repair her self-confidence and her relationship with her MMO pet? No, because she reminded him of a family member. This is a reflection of his threat to the PK guild leader at the end of the episode - the consequence for murder isn't moral or spiritual to him, it's a few days of being PVP flagged.

[KrayZ33]

First of all, the main character's social dysfunction should be immediately evident.

yes I agree, he's the typical shut-in MMO players who might enjoy those games more than real-life
for reasons unknown (so far? or maybe forever... harrassment, father beating him too much, who knows)

in the first episode his home life is presented as a featureless room and his only interaction with his family is through a closed door.

its not really awkward is it? Sister leaves the house, he starts playing .... thats it
I wouldn't read to much into it though..

and lets not forget its not just him who's hyped about this game, its seems to be a really big thing, like a new Ipod or something like that

In episode four, why does he help the girl out? Because she was an innocent person about to die? Because he wants to repair her self-confidence and her relationship with her MMO pet? No, because she reminded him of a family member.

exactly, thats the most normal thing to do, its what anyone or most human beings would do
just like a man would help a woman before he'd help another man
the fact that he IS there in the first place shows he want to help others... just like Queen Orange said "Why would a front-liner roam here?!"
he saved her life, and probably just then he realized how much she looks like his sister. openly admitting it and telling her that he probably just helps her because he wants to amend his errors (or something like that)

This is a reflection of his threat to the PK guild leader at the end of the episode - the consequence for murder isn't moral or spiritual to him, it's a few days of being PVP flagged.

red = PK
orange = hurt/crime

he doesn't fight back at all, he owns them by showing his superiority, he has absolutely no intention of hurting them

red-head said: "you'll turn Orange if you *HURT* me"
he even mentioned that his client doesn't want them dead, but in prison... which might be the reason why he agreed to do it for him!?

but even IF we ignore all that.

killing her might be the only other way to stop that PvP madness in a game where "people die when they are killed"
he is willing to pay the price for "self-justice"...again hes taking all the blame (red-playermark)..something other front liners wouldn't do for a random low level stranger.
and lets face it, killing her would probably save even more lives

[Y]

exactly, thats the most normal thing to do, its what anyone or most human beings would do
just like a man would help a woman before he'd help another man

Most normal people don't check for resemblance to their close relatives when saving people during a disaster, dude. That's a really weird way to go about things. You don't have to literally defend absolutely every aspect of the character.

red = PK
orange = hurt/crime

This isn't explained in the episode, and doesn't make sense given the fact that we know her guild lures people in and kills them and yet is flagged orange and not red. But it's no problem, we have the spoiler crew here to talk about unnecessary technical derails.

[KrayZ33]

Most normal people don't check for resemblance to their close relatives when saving people during a disaster, dude. That's a really weird way to go about things. You don't have to literally defend absolutely every aspect of the character.

my english is probably to bad for you to understand what I'm saying. you are cutting corners

written by myself

he saved her life, and probably just then he realized how much she looks like his sister.

hmm nope, I think someone should be able to read and understand that
and no its not weird, its a fact to be honest. I'm sure you find lots of info about it on the internet if you really care.
you don't have to make up reasons bro, I can live with people hating him, I hate it when people make up stuff to justify it though

This isn't explained in the episode

it IS... what the fuck come on?

[Y]

hmm nope, I think someone should be able to read and understand that
and no its not weird, its a fact to be honest. I'm sure you find lots of info about it on the internet if you really care.

This is really dumb and lazy. You invented a biotruth argument out of nothing and then asked me to go find proof of your assertion. Well, no. That isn't how people consciously make decisions normally. That's really fucking weird actually. The altruistic impulse is because people get distressed when they see other people suffer, not because they need to work out their family issues through a proxy. Of course, the point of that scene was just to make a creepy pseudo-familial association between the characters because anime is fucking creepy as shit.

it IS... what the fuck come on?

I asked Arcness in chat and he said the colors got explained during his cheesecake dinner date (which I completely zoned out of). That being said, the player killer guild in episode four is clearly flagged orange, so again it's just more slipshod writing.

[fireheart]

Regarding episode 4 Kirito did say the guild leader spent the whole day begging for someone to help him It could be argued that Kirito sat and watched him the whole time and only moved when he relized no one was going to help him. While this doesn't really reflect well on him the more important fact is that none of the people in the front cared about this guild walking around PKing people or bothered stopping them. It says a lot about all the people in the front.

As for his powerlevling to be fair if I did what he did and made me out to be a beater, gathering the hate of who knows how many in a deathgame where PKing is allowed then I'd powerlevel like a maniac. I'd be way too paranoid not to do it, what if someone from Diabels party decided it was his fault and they all ambushed him to take their revenge on him? What if there were more people like Kibaou who decided that it's his fault 2000 players died and goes after him and even if they don't kill him and just take all his gear, how long would he survive?

Paranoia could also be the reason why he powerleveled right at the start of the game, what if he farmed exp with everyone else and someone went nuts and tried to kill him because he figured that mob was his and Kirito stole it from him. Maybe not very likely to happen but the fear of it possibly happening is another matter, once it taken root it'd be hard to let it go and trust that people wouldn't screw you over. To be honest I don't have the kind of faith in mankind that would enable me to believe that other people with Kiritos knowledge wouldn't use it to ensure they have a higher chance of survival. Nor do I have enough faith to really believe that people under that kind of stress where their life is at line wouldn't snap and attack you for believing you stole their mob or someone trying to steal everything you got. If anyone here have enough faith to utterly trust in all the random people and doesn't even entertain the slightest doubt or fear then I commend you for it, but not everyone is that strong.

Most normal people don't check for resemblance to their close relatives when saving people during a disaster, dude. That's a really weird way to go about things. You don't have to literally defend absolutely every aspect of the character.

I thought that was the reason why he's going out of his way to help revive her pet since she asked why he'd go so far to help her and not the reason why he saved her from certain death.

[KrayZ33]

TThat isn't how people consciously make decisions normally. That's really fucking weird actually. The altruistic impulse is because people get distressed when they see other people suffer, not because they need to work out their family issues through a proxy.

look, Its exactly as fireheart says
I wrote just that... (and I didn't edit that part)
he saved her and then realized "hey, she looks like my kawaii imouto <3" and helped her even more

and about the "men help women more than they would help other men" part
its a basic instinct, its just that way... I don't really want to get into it and I can't promise 100% acuraccy but the core should be right:

Women are flight animals, Men are not... evolution "made" (as in darwin's theory... and not lamarck-style) women weak, because they have to feed their offspring, muscles would drain too much energy... they want to be protected
Men are stronger, normally they got the will to fight, they got muscles and power... they want to protect the women, which is weaker. both the "will to be protected" and the "will to protect" play a significant role in how you would react in a situation where you have to help either a man or a woman.

the so called "gentleman reflex" is very similiar to this (I don't know if that is the correct english translation)

and its a given that family members or people who resemble such members are being prioritized

[darkshadow]

Utwoots:

he most likely didn't want them to end that way and he regrets not telling them his real level? He went to the guild leader and told him everything, even though he didn't have too, he could've kept going with the "I'm just lvl 20 and couldn't help them " role but he didn't
because it was not his intention to hurt them, he wanted to help them, he wanted them to reach the front lines, he wanted them to reach their goals (or guild-leaders goals) by pushing them, but he pushed too hard. they themselves wanted to reach the front lines as fast as possible.

You seem to misunderstand something, I don't recall us ever saying his intention was for them to die, but if this was a US legal case, he would be charged with involuntary manslaughter; the keyword here is negligence, we said he lied and gave them a false sense of their own strength.
This was especially important when the group wanted to go to the instant death floor, yet even here he didn't think it was important to inform them of their possible easy deaths.

I don't know if you are bestowing some novel knowledge on us, but in the anime nothing indicates that he wanted to "push" them, he saved them because he happened to be around for whatever reason, he joined up with them for an undisclosed reason which was probably loneliness.
If he wanted to "push" them, he could've done so while telling his level; that way there would be no misunderstanding about the groups own strength, they would've probably not even brought up going to the instant kill floor, and this is how he caused their deaths.
Intentional or not, he was the cause of their deaths, which is hilarious cause it means him saving them initially was entirely pointless.

Oh and about your ass-grab about 95% of all players, in all online/mmo games I 've played, ranging from PSO till Dragon's Dogma, I've always encountered players that massively helped me out without any pretext.
I guess I'm lucky to meet that 5% of players for 11 years in a row right?

[Y]

Yo just because you negative rep my posts doesn't mean you have a good point. In fact it pretty much implies you know you DON'T have a point and just want to shit out retribution anonymously instead of being able to discuss or defend your ideas.

[Buffalobiian]

You seem to misunderstand something, I don't recall us ever saying his intention was for them to die, but if this was a US legal case, he would be charged with involuntary manslaughter; the keyword here is negligence, we said he lied and gave them a false sense of their own strength.

If you want to sue for negligence, you'll have to prove all of:

1) That a duty of care was due to the plaintiff,
2) That the duty of care was breached,
3) and that the breaching of said duty of care resulted in the harming of the plaintiff.

Good luck proving the first part. He's not part of a profession where duty of care is implied when someone approaches you for service.



-------------------------------------



About the whole argument regarding Kirito not warning people about the next floor up....

- He did warn them and try to persuade them. It's not his right to bloody detain them. He's not their parent..
- The mob wasn't entirely wrong when they thought they could handle that upper floor. They beat the normal monsters without too much trouble.
- Kirito was surprised that there was a hidden trapdoor on such a low level. Clearly that indicates the trapdoor was not indicative of that floor's typical difficulty. The existence of such a floor on that level was also outside of Kirito's knowledge.
- The mob rushed forward thinking that since everything's gone according to expectations, this should be cakewalk.
- Kirito tried to warn them, but it turned out to be too late. Someone died.



^ Anything from the last three points look familiar?

It's the same shit that happened when they fought the Floor #1 Boss.

- device from higher level trickled down to a lower level.
- Someone got overconfident and rushed forward
- Kirito notices something, but was too late.

Sorry the almighty Beater wasn't as almighty as you wanted him to be. :/




----------------------------------





Now for the argument about helping Silica:

- he saved her because someone needed to be saved. That's IT.
- he "went so far" to help her because she looked cute and was like someone he knew. This isn't a "disaster" situation where everyone's fleeing from immediate danger like Y implies. Kirito is not in immediate danger or in desperate need of resources. He reached out to someone because they looked cute and familiar.
- Kirito was searching for Rosalia. Silica only turned out to be bait because of two things:

1) because someone was listening (hinting at an ambush - and Titan Hands could have been one such party.
2) Rosalia actually turned up.

Notice that Silica never mentioned Rosalia's name when they met on the street at night. Kirito didn't know her identity then.




-----------------------------------------------------

red = PK
orange = hurt/crime

This isn't explained in the episode, and doesn't make sense given the fact that we know her guild lures people in and kills them and yet is flagged orange and not red. But it's no problem, we have the spoiler crew here to talk about unnecessary technical derails.

I asked Arcness in chat and he said the colors got explained during his cheesecake dinner date (which I completely zoned out of). That being said, the player killer guild in episode four is clearly flagged orange, so again it's just more slipshod writing.

HAHA. No, really, I laughed. In a very sad way.

Firstly, no one said that the guild only consisted of the arrested party. Kirito said "green members" lure the travellers in. The guild could be larger than what was presented.

Secondly, Kirito mentioned that being Orange for a few days doesn't bother him. That means that infarction/warning levels subside over time. It's entirely plausible that Red can become Orange given time.

But lastly (at least for this section), the guild was out to steal rare items from people. They rob. If you hold onto your good too tightly.. then something might happen.

Note that Titan's Hand is labelled as the/an Orange Guild.





--------------------------------------------




Regarding Kirito admiring qualities of the Game Master.. so what? The game master is a genius. No evil-doing will change that. Someone who is unable to appreciate the merits of something simply because it's lumped with bad stuff in a single container (or because those merits are being used for a bad purpose) simply shows an inability to evaluate things.





You don't need a novel to read Kirito's character. My only exposure only consists of the 4 episodes aired. It's.. not that hard.

[MasterOfMoogles]

It is actually pretty easy to murder someone without being marked as a murderer.
Simply ambush them in a dungeon, force them to give you all of their equipment, and then leave them alone in the middle of the dungeon to try to escape without any weapons or armor.
Even in MMOs without pvp, there are also plenty of other ways to get players killed like training monsters on them and such (though most games nowadays put in things to avoid that).

In most games with pvp flagging type functionality, you can even do things like jumping in the line of fire to force someone to be flagged. Then you can proceed to "defend yourself" with no consequences.

[Buffalobiian]

About 12, per 1 rep...

That's the total damage you can do to me.

-I’m level 53.
-I have 6854 reputation points.
-My comment posting skill generates 215 points every 10 reps.
-We could stand here all day and you’d never beat me

Is that even possible?

-It is.
-High enough numbers will make you invincible.
-Forums that use a reputation system are unfair in that way.

[Dark Dragon]

Someone is just going around just neg repping everyone. There no point to even worry about it, probably just trying to stir more shit.

[KrayZ33]

I don't know if you are bestowing some novel knowledge on us, but in the anime nothing indicates that he wanted to "push" them,

then rewatch ep 3

Yo just because you negative rep my posts doesn't mean you have a good point. In fact it pretty much implies you know you DON'T have a point and just want to shit out retribution anonymously instead of being able to discuss or defend your ideas.

I havn't used the rep system for a year or so... funny though that you even care to check, its like you were waiting for someone to neg-rep you

Oh and about your ass-grab about 95% of all players, in all online/mmo games I 've played, ranging from PSO till Dragon's Dogma, I've always encountered players that massively helped me out without any pretext.
I guess I'm lucky to meet that 5% of players for 11 years in a row right?

ya sure....
everytime you asked for gold or assistance I bet you couldn't even handle all the whispers and kindness.

[Y]

Someone is just going around just neg repping everyone. There no point to even worry about it, probably just trying to stir more shit.

It was me. I would have signed them but I didn't think it was appropriate. I thought that would have been obvious given my previous post.

I havn't used the rep system for a year or so... funny though that you even care to check, its like you were waiting for someone to neg-rep you

I only checked when DS mentioned in IRC that he was neg repped as well for this thread. I then neg repped everyone who disagreed with me. Booya.