Sword Art Online

[Y]

Again, I really don't want to debate the tactical realism of the show because that's just dumb, but Sword Art Online is obviously a very simple game for one reason - if it were even remotely taxing it would kill absolutely everyone playing it in short time. Like just think for a few seconds. If you had to be a real life black belt in jiujitsu to advance in the game, everyone playing it would already be dead. To go back to WoW, even the absolute simplest bosses are usually complicated enough to require a wipe or two when an unexpected mechanic rears its head. The difference in SAO is you can't watch a Youtube video, wipe a few times or ask the #1 guild for their strat. Everything has to be simple enough to be understood and defeated on the very first attempt.

[shinta|hikari]

I am opting out of discussion about SAO from here. Ryll is right that I may be defending it because I have background information from the novels. While I do not intend to use that information in discussion (I even consciously avoid it as much as I can), it is impossible to ensure that since I am already tainted by knowledge, and may inadvertently reveal things thinking that they were explained in the anime.

For the sake of anime only watchers, I will lurk this thread until the anime ends.

[Buffalobiian]

Kirito advanced to the 8th Floor in the beta like he says. There's no reason to lie about that here. The fact that he only managed to break through the first floor in the real SAO with a party means that the beta was significantly different and perhaps harder.

Here's the thing. None of that makes a lick of sense. If the beta was so hard why was the first floor more difficult on live? .

That's a typo on my part. I meant the beta was easier than the real deal.

[Y]

That's a typo on my part. I meant the beta was easier than the real deal.

The beta was undoubtedly much harder than live, relatively speaking. On live, permadeath means you can never wipe to learn an encounter or understand a boss's ability. If the game was as easy in beta as it was on live, presumably everyone would have had a huge advantage due to the lack of permadeath.

[Buffalobiian]

The beta was undoubtedly much harder than live, relatively speaking. On live, permadeath means you can never wipe to learn an encounter or understand a boss's ability. If the game was as easy in beta as it was on live, presumably everyone would have had a huge advantage due to the lack of permadeath.

The fact that after 1 month no one had cleared Floor 1, and that higher boss abilities trickled down to lower levels compared to the beta clearly suggests that the Live was harder than Beta.

[Y]

The fact that after 1 month no one had cleared Floor 1, and that higher boss abilities trickled down to lower levels compared to the beta clearly suggests that the Live was harder than Beta.

I'm purely talking about encounter difficulty in a design sense. Obviously the reason no one cleared Floor 1 is because they expected to be rescued, were refusing to participate, were playing SUPER cautiously so as not to die, etc, not because it was made harder from a design perspective. The change to the first boss didn't even make it harder, it just made it different from what they were expecting.

[Hitokiri]

Episode 2: All in all, it's really not any different from episode 1. He still runs off to do his own thing. He refused the offer to play along as a team member in favor of bum rushing to the quick leveling spots in the first episode, and he did the same thing here. The only difference is he told people that is what he was going to do, instead of slinking off. You can't really call that any sort of character development.

Name anything that's changed from the first episode about Kirito. He's still selfishly running about, taking pride in the fact that he's stronger/smarter than basically anyone else, using limited-release knowledge for his own ends, and occasionally helping noobs, but refusing to put any trust in them. It's been four episodes, it's still the same information you could glean from the first episode.

Actually, even though he knew about the Last Attack Bonus item (Coat of Midnight), he still played along with Deibel's plan and was purely support (Squad D, E and F taking out the Sentinels). That's not selfish to me. He could have bum rushed the Boss to get the item, but he didn't. He, also tried to warn Deibel once he saw that the Boss weapon was different, but it was too late. His last request to Kirito was to: "Defeat the Boss for Everyone" while denying Kirito's health potion.

Also in the end, when that guy accused him of letting Deibel die, the situation got ugly within the party. When someone else asked if other people in the party were also beta testers and to come out and show themselves, the party would have most certainly broken up with a lot of mistrust between each other. To avoid this, he played the role of the bad guy (self proclaimed Beater) so no one else would come under fire for being a beta tester.

It is clear he was thinking about the group, especially since his last thought was a flash back of Deibel pleading with him to help the group before he died. Again, not selfish.

TLR - no he's not selfish; want proof read above or watch the damn episode again.

[Yukimura]

Kirito is either selfish or cowardly or some combination of the two (my money is on option 3). My read on him is his is either unwilling to or incapable of relating to more than one person. In a group setting he never seems to operate effectively, to disastrous, as we see in episode 3, or cold-hearted, as we see in 1,2, and 4, results. I don't get the feeling that he is directly malicious, but I still think even when he is doing 'good' things he is doing them purely for his own sense of satisfaction and is not actually considering things from the perspectives of other people when determining his behavior.

Despite being unable, for whatever reason, to relate properly to or interact with people in groups, I think Kirito has a desire not to be alone and probably a desire to feel a sense of belonging to a group. Whether he is tragic because he can't or a deplorable because he won't but has a hero complex he has to satisfy I find it hard to see him as being particularly praise-worthy. His attempts at playing 'the hero' all reek of selfish intent with benefits for others being fortunate side effects that he could care less about one way or the other.

In episode 1 he offers to help Klein, but refuses to join with him and looking for Klein's other friends and forming a party. This tells me ultimately he was thinking of himself and perhaps knows his limitations where groups are concerned, it also tells me he was willing to take one person along, albeit a person who would be dependent on him due to inexperience.

In episode 2 he joins the raid, knowing what it took to beat the first boss in the Beta but I imagine not knowing/having the exp to take it on himself. He doesn't ever speak up or offer any of his knowledge to try and help the group but he's capable of at least going through the motions, perhaps because he was happy to feel like he belonged to something. However, we also know that he knew about the last hit bonus and it remains to be seen whether he truly did just join the group hoping to get lucky with the last hit. Once he realized that things with the party were falling apart he made that speech about how he was the greatest thing since sliced beta and turned all the groups ire onto him. My guess is that this was a result of panic about the way the group seemed to be turning against him. He got defensive and forced their ire onto him on his terms before they could kick him out on their own.

In episode 3 he pals around with people far under his own level but doesn't offer any guidance or wisdom from the higher levels and doesn't try very hard to discourage them from risking the danger they might face on a higher level. He knew he'd be alright and maybe he thought that either they could somehow take care of themselves or he could watch their backs well enough to keep them alive, but he didn't take action from the perspective of trying to minimize the risk to them, he only offered token resistance to their going to what we can assume was one level behind the front. Again, a complete failure to work effectively within a group setting. However it's interesting to note when he deals to a single individual, particularly one who is obviously far 'weaker' than him and thus in a position to defer to him, he seems to relate to people just fine.

In episode 4 he only has one person to party with and this is a situation he seems quite capable of dealing with and even properly relating to, but he maintains a firm control of the upper hand throughout his interaction with dragon-chan. However, we discover that he was down at that level for at least partially selfish reasons. The argument could be made that he was trying to clean up the 'trash' of the game for the sake of particular players, but it seemed to me like he wanted to play 'hero' and could reasonably expect nothing would happen to him so he went and did it.

[MasterOfMoogles]

It is interesting that all of Kirito's actions could have multiple motivations behind them. Many things factor into his actions, some selfishness and cowardice, some bravery and selflessness, and certainly some social awkwardness.

In episode 1, he selfishly wants to go powerlevel as fast as he can, so he can be the strongest. Knowing what he knows about how evil people can be, I think anyone would want to be higher level than the PK who might try to kill you. Kirito wants to make a friend and help him advance, but is too scared to take the responsibility for Klein and his friends' lives in his hands. He weighs the certainty of his own strength against staying behind to help them, and chooses himself. The easy way out.

In episode 2, he is in the raid because he wants to clear the game. However, hate for the beta players is pretty high, so he is scared of getting called out. Luckily for him, there is the guidebook that explains everything that he knows anyways, so he doesn't have to say anything. He thinks everything is under control so he just goes along for the ride. At the end of the battle, he realizes that things are going bad and the bad blood between regular players and beta players will probably just get worse. In a move that is both selfish and selfless he takes all the hate onto himself. This is, in a way, the easy way out of the situation. He doesn't have to be responsible for anyone and doesn't have to deal with tough social situations.

In episode 3, loneliness has clearly caught up to Kirito, so he joins the guild. He thinks the only reason they're nice to him is because they don't know who he is, so he hides the truth and tries to stay with them. He thinks everything is under control, so again he avoids the tough social interactions that would come up if he told the truth. Again he takes the easy way out, just trying to coast by. He thinks he can get by like this, but it ends up being a total failure. He caused the deaths of 5 people and is pretty traumatized, to the point of being suicidal (attempting to solo a raid boss). Sachi's final message clearly had a big impact on him, and was probably the only thing that stopped him from going crazy.

In episode 4, he seems to have embraced who he is. On the upper floors, he found someone begging to take revenge for his guildmates who were effectively murdered. He knew he had the power to put a stop to it and save lives, so he goes to the lower floors, but not hiding who he is this time. Scilica is probably the first person Kirito has ever actually opened up to and talked to since the incident. He is probably doing it partly out of guilt, having gotten his own comrades killed, but it is undeniable that he is doing a good thing. He seems to be doing "the right thing" here, even when nobody else would. Kirito wasn't in any danger, but that doesn't mean what he did was easy.

[Buffalobiian]

Kirito is selfish?(1)

WTF.





(1) and by "selfish" I take it to mean that he's more selfish than the average joe.

He's a beta tester, and he offered to help Klein to build up his strength. Once the designer made his speech, Kirito knew that to ensure his survival he had to build up his level quickly. He offered to take Klein with him because one person wouldn't hinder their performance too much, but refused leading an entire band.

That's called co-operation. At that stage Klein had nothing to offer Kirito, but Kirito was happy to help him out as long as he didn't suffer in return. That's not "selfish", which I interpret to be hoarding stuff/benefits for yourself (that wasn't rightfully yours in the first place) while leaving others to rot.

Then came the fight. Kirito didn't give off any information because:

1) someone was leading already and had a plan figured out
2) that someone had beta information about bosses

It was Diebel who broke the formation to get the bonus kill, not Kirito. He only disregarded their battle plan because it was no longer valid against this new boss ability. The last-kill by Kirito wasn't planned. It's not like he would have pushed Asuna out of the way to get the kill if she was in his position instead.

The speech afterwards was to give everyone else a common enemy (Kirito) so they'll band together, instead of trying to make up with the rest of the group and leaving seeds of distrust that would end up killing them. (the speech, as I explained before, also meant that the group won't doubt each other's performances)

Then comes episode 3 where for whatever reason Kirito was around to help out this group. He didn't intend to join them, but they asked so he felt obliged (and might have wanted a little company on the side.. who knows). He lied about his level to fit in. The end result was that the others got cocky and thought they could be as great as Kirito is because they're of similar level.. but that's not entirely his fault I reckon.

In the final episode Kirito left the front lines in order to catch some asshole. There's no evidence to suggest that he approached Silica for that reason. For one, he was searching for Rosalia. If he knew where she was, he'd attack them. Silica only became "bait" after Kirito detected the Listener.

[Ryllharu]

Also in the end, when that guy accused him of letting Deibel die, the situation got ugly within the party. When someone else asked if other people in the party were also beta testers and to come out and show themselves, the party would have most certainly broken up with a lot of mistrust between each other. To avoid this, he played the role of the bad guy (self proclaimed Beater) so no one else would come under fire for being a beta tester.

TLR - no he's not selfish; want proof read above or watch the damn episode again.

I get what you're saying, but you're misinterpreting my post. Despite all the unselfish actions Kirito performs during episode 2, at the end, after his speech that unifies the group, he declares quite openly that he's running off to go power level again, and we know from later episodes that he actually does just that. He's the same level or higher than the front line groups, yet can still spend several days away from there and still be as good as they are. During episode 3, he is shown power leveling most nights while his guild sleeps.

So they actually negated the pathetic excuse for character development Kirito might have gained. At the end of BOTH episodes 1 and 2, Kirito helps a few noobs, but then tells them that he's going to go run off and be better than them (well, he never told Klein). Any altruistic actions he accomplished are negated by the fact that he willfully refuses to help them where it actually matters, saving everyone. He power levels on his own, and forces them to figure out everything for themselves.

I suppose the only reasoning you can put behind this is either Y's right, and he's a complete sociopath, or Yuki's right, and he's got major Asperger's combined with a Hero Complex, so he goes out to fight weak people to save, but panics every time he's thrust into a social scenario.

[Buffalobiian]

So they actually negated the pathetic excuse for character development Kirito might have gained. At the end of BOTH episodes 1 and 2, Kirito helps a few noobs, but then tells them that he's going to go run off and be better than them (well, he never told Klein). Any altruistic actions he accomplished are negated by the fact that he willfully refuses to help them where it actually matters, saving everyone. He power levels on his own, and forces them to figure out everything for themselves.

So refusing to do charity/suffer losses for someone else makes you selfish? Helping Klein isn't something that "actually matters"?

If Kirito is right and the man spent "all of his fortune" to buy the Prison Crystal, that means he left none as payment for Kirito. (I don't really think that's the case, but I can imagine the crystal costing the bulk of the expense and Kirito just charging {or was perhaps simply offered} what's left of the ex-leader) The he went and gave all the gear to Silica and helped her level up even though the warp crystal would have been good enough to ensure survival (or just armour).

He also sacrificed a few days of levelling (which is important to him) in order to help the guy catch scum.

Kirito is as selfish as the average person. He donates his time and money when it suits him without compromising his livelihood. Just because you didn't quit your job, fly to Africa and help dig wells doesn't mean you're selfish.

[Ryllharu]

If you have the knowledge and skill to save 5000+ people all at once, why are you only using it to impress weak people one by one? The second Kirito might get thrown into a leadership role, he insults a bunch of people and runs off instead, or willfully stands aside and lets them get themselves killed.

That's not a simple as devoting your life to altruism. When you have the capability to save people on such a large scale, I do believe one has the responsibility to do something about it. The ultra-wealthy dump tons of money into charity (which in turn assists their tax burden), the brilliant modify food to grow in harsher conditions or create water purifiers on the cheap. Sure, little things help here and there, but Kirito using all his advantages to help only himself and his own needs isn't the best use of it. This isn't refusing to endlessly provide "charity," this is Kirito always fleeing from responsibility, making everything someone else's problem.

Which if you believe the backstory he told Silica, he did that all the time in the real world too, to his sister/cousin.

Please don't think he did anything nice to Silica directly. He gave her gear he has no use for (which he must accumulate constantly from grinding all the time), and only helped her enough that the trap he was setting up could be sprung. His real goal on those floors was playing hero to a guy who had just lost his entire guild. Coming off episode 3, it just makes it look like Kirito was doing it to assuage any left over guilt he had from when he caused a similar situation. I still think it would have been better if he had killed the redhead, but I guess they don't want to send him down the "I am Justice!" sociopath route just yet.

[MasterOfMoogles]

I don't think everyone has the leadership skills and the abilities necessary to lead 10,000 people through a life or death situation. He's just a 15 year old boy who wants to play MMO games.
Some of the arguments in this thread are a great example of just how hard it is to get everyone on the same page.

[Edort4]

Game server meets EMP.

Lately I cant get myself to like this kind of "mainstreamish" anime. I find it terribly lacking in all areas: script, art, music, character deepness/development. For me its some kind of Hack Sign rehased bs. Not even innovative and terribly nonsensical. And that the OP shows Kirito with a bunch of random female characters hints me where the show is aiming at. I find this to be a classical example of decadency inside the "industry".

Anyways in some way or another we all "like" MMOs because so much discussion for such a bland and weak show... I have to concede the show that it gets to the tickle spot of persistent alternate reality lovers.

[Buffalobiian]

If you have the knowledge and skill to save 5000+ people all at once, why are you only using it to impress weak people one by one? The second Kirito might get thrown into a leadership role, he insults a bunch of people and runs off instead, or willfully stands aside and lets them get themselves killed.

5000+?

He never met a group that big. If you're talking about the beta-book, the Floor #1 boss taught you that the beta and live SAO are different - and relying on wrong information will kill you.

Knowledge and combat skill doesn't make you a good leader (as the above said). Charisma, on the other hand, is something else.

When you have the capability to save people on such a large scale, I do believe one has the responsibility to do something about it. The ultra-wealthy dump tons of money into charity (which in turn assists their tax burden), the brilliant modify food to grow in harsher conditions or create water purifiers on the cheap.

The ultra-wealthy don't dump money at the cost of their company's performance. Scientists don't develop new technology for free.

Kirito is willing to help to his capacity without suffering a loss. That's perfectly normal.

Which if you believe the backstory he told Silica, he did that all the time in the real world too, to his sister/cousin.

Kirito didn't like doing whatever it is that his grandfather forced them to do. That's his grandfather's assholish ways that put them in a bind. Her cousin having twice the burden wasn't a result that was foreseeable, and was suggested by the cousin herself. I think Silica's reasoning had some sense behind it. Given that Kirito was already actively defying his grandfather's wishes, the cousin could have joined Kirito in their cause if she hated the activity. The fact that she was willing to do "twice as well" when an outlet was available suggests she would have put in exceptional effort regardless. Such is an example of "helping without suffering a loss".

Please don't think he did anything nice to Silica directly. He gave her gear he has no use for (which he must accumulate constantly from grinding all the time),

He gave her stuff that he could have sold. She offered to pay, but he accepted nothing.

Then he went and let her deliver most of the killing blows where allowable so she could level up when he could do it himself more quickly to save time (as well as soak up whatever measly XP those level monsters provide)

and only helped her enough that the trap he was setting up could be sprung.

He saved her from the monsters in the forest, then aided her in reviving her pet. From the start he intended to go that far, and that's what he did. If he really wanted to bail, he would have caught Rosalia and just bailed without a word (or shrug off Silica with his "haha, I'm an evil Beater and you were just my bait, so long!" act). Instead he stuck around to explain, to see that the revival was successful, and to promise to meet her in real life.

She was more than (and wasn't initially intended to be) jailbait.

His real goal on those floors was playing hero to a guy who had just lost his entire guild. Coming off episode 3, it just makes it look like Kirito was doing it to assuage any left over guilt he had from when he caused a similar situation. I still think it would have been better if he had killed the redhead, but I guess they don't want to send him down the "I am Justice!" sociopath route just yet.

Not everyone believes in capital punishment. The guild(less) leader wanted (his own form of) justice enacted on some assholes but was powerless to do so. Kirito helped him out because he agrees with the cause. I don't think he has any real Hero Complex like you suggest, or else he'd be more happy to lead groups.

If you had to connect it to episode 03, you could say that Kirito indirectly lead to his teammates' death. He probably hated himself for that. As such, he hates murderers even more. That would be his motivation.

[darkshadow]

Silica was bait, plain and simple; he helped her out because she reminded him of his sistercousin; first and foremost he decided to use her dead pet as a means to get what he wanted.
Or in other words he was nice to her to make himself feel better.
The equipment he gave her was trash for someone his level and he's probably rolling in money anyway; aside from not wanting it for his own feel-good selfish reasons, he simply didn't need her "pocketchange".

[KrayZ33]

Can't believe people see Kirito as selfish....

pretty much every episode showed the exact opposite, its ridiculous

Silica was bait, plain and simple; he helped her out because she reminded him of his sistercousin; first and foremost he decided to use her dead pet as a means to get what he wanted.
Or in other words he was nice to her to make himself feel better.
The equipment he gave her was trash for someone his level and he's probably rolling in money anyway; aside from not wanting it for his own feel-good selfish reasons, he simply didn't need her "pocketchange".

I'll keep in mind:
never help out noobs especially when you have better things to do , because it seems like it will make you look selfish
guess clearing the game so people can finally log out and risking your life by doing so is very selfish too because in the end he just did it for himself amiright?


by the way, stop donating guys, those kids in africa don't want your ugly pocketchange so you can feel good and say "I'm donating - not my fault everyones eating shit there", why don't you go over there and help you selfish sons of bitchez :O
that exactly what you guys are telling Kirito to do

[darkshadow]

He's only been helping himself.
He's not helping noobs, if he did then those 5 living human beings wouldn't be dead now; do you remember what blue-haired girl said? She was glad he was higher level cause it meant he could look after them. What does he he do? Promptly ends their lives, because he felt it was more important to lie about his level and give the group a false sense of being stronger then they were.

And when it really came down to it, them talking about going to a much higher floor, he didn't even try to tell them they could potentially get one shotted, and thus die in real life really easy.
Heck on the floor itself one of them comments: "see, piece of cake", not knowing kirito has been carrying them this whole time and a tiny slip up on his side could mean instadead...which is exactly what happened.

And lol @ clearing the game, he was obviously hanging out with that lower level group for months, it's clear that he's not on the front-line all the time desperately risking his life trying to safe everyone; he powerlevels a bit and then just wanders off on lower levels essentially feeding himself with actions that make him feel better about himself.

[KrayZ33]

you mean those 5 who would've died if he didn't intervene. right before he joined their guild?

ya, he wanted them dead and tricked them!
awww im kidding, it was an accident