Muv-Luv Alternative - Total Eclipse

[David75]

From MyAnimeList:
Since 1973, an invasion of aliens known as BETA upon Earth is driving human civilization into nearly collapse. Facing an enormous mass of enemy force, mankind has developed large humanoid arms called as Tactical Surface Fighters and deployed them to its defense lines through out the world. However, all those efforts could slow down defeats but could not stop BETA, and mankind is forced to abandon major area of the Eurasian Continent. For 30 years, mankind is bogged down in an endless war against BETA without any hopes of victory.

[Commie] Muv-Luv Alternative - Total Eclipse - 01 [8EA15F90].mkv



---------------------------------------------------------------------

I've tested that one since I was willing to try the muv-luv VNs.
I do not know when/where total eclipse is in that universe, so my judgment is purely based on that first ep as I know nothing else from that.

Thing is, that ep rubbed me the wrong way.
Starting with the alternate universe back in 1967 that is an earth more advanced than we are. I don't know why, it did not work at all with me, when it shouldn't. It is in fact a good idea since you can base your culture/geopolitics and most everydaylife things on reality and just alter what you need to. An easier setup in a way. Also one where you're not totally excluded. I guess it is also useful to have your players/customers/viewers feel it's almost there...

Then there's that all girls squad. I understand it's better for sales, but it didn't work well with me again.

Then there's that enemy, very basic one, much like a bacteriae working together against mankind?

Then there's that awful CG, colors are bad, textures are bad, kinetics are bad. God, use some art if you do not have budget!

I was not able to like any of the characters
Fanservice was awful too

I'll watch ep 2 and hope it'll be better by then. But I might not go further. Not meaning I will discard the games, as the experience might be entirely different.


Commie subtitling was under par to me, at least fonts, colors and placement.

[Kraco]

I can't really commend this either. Alternate history is really not such a big deal, and the kind of technological advancement we saw could be explained in any manner of ways. What comes to the squad made out of young girls only, I hope the explanation is simply that all the guys and older soldiers (men and women) have already perished in the fires of war! When you have got little left, you use what you can. These things, so far, didn't bother me. The thing that bothered was the ages old problem with mecha shows in general: Nothing we saw so far indicates giant humanoid shaped machines should fare any better against the enemy than more traditional weapons of war. I wish we had actually seen the enemy better because right now I only want to know what makes them so tough and unstoppable. I sure hope it's something plausible...

Lastly but not leastly: Where the hell are all the nukes? You'd think they would rather deploy them if the other alternative is extinction. The Beta seem to move in big hordes, so tactical nukes would wipe them out quite smoothly. If a nuke is ineffective, humanity should be in a hurry to build space ships to leave the planet. No mecha is going to defeat an enemy capable of withstanding a nuclear strike (unless we go Gurren-Lagann level, of course).

[Xelbair]

Alternative history - we don't know if nukes have been discovered.

[shinta|hikari]

@Kraco - All those points are explained very well in the Muv Luv Alternative visual novel. I have no idea if those will make it in this spin off though. I can PM you the information if you wish.

[Kraco]

@Kraco - All those points are explained very well in the Muv Luv Alternative visual novel. I have no idea if those will make it in this spin off though. I can PM you the information if you wish.

Thanks for the offer, but this was just the first episode. I'll give the director and producer a chance.

[isso]

I couldn't see the episode in VLC.... Is there any other version of episode 1?

[Kraco]

I couldn't see the episode in VLC.... Is there any other version of episode 1?

I watched the HorribleSubs version. However, if you can't play a regular anime episode these days, you ought to update your codecs/player.

[isso]

Thank you, the HS version worked just fine, first time I experienced such a problem

[Archangel]

...Gunbuster?

[Kraco]

Episode 2 - HS





- - - -- - - -






I felt like this ep was a bit better than the first. Even if it was partly due to the preview suggesting things could get real from the third ep on. Still, I was annoyed by the poor performance of the military and on the other hand the less than convincing threat by the beta. I wasn't trained to combat space monsters, that's true, but still it's exceedingly sad the trainee girls fought better than most of the real soldiers - especially when the girls still weren't anywhere near good. The laser beta were the only convincingly deadly enemies and also explained why we aren't seeing attack planes but rather only ground hugging flying. However, nothing else made much sense military wise, except the very last artillery barrage, the likes of which we should have been seeing all the time during this fight, not only when the humans were losing.

[David75]

Episode 2 - HS





- - - -- - - -






I felt like this ep was a bit better than the first. Even if it was partly due to the preview suggesting things could get real from the third ep on. Still, I was annoyed by the poor performance of the military and on the other hand the less than convincing threat by the beta. I wasn't trained to combat space monsters, that's true, but still it's exceedingly sad the trainee girls fought better than most of the real soldiers - especially when the girls still weren't anywhere near good. The laser beta were the only convincingly deadly enemies and also explained why we aren't seeing attack planes but rather only ground hugging flying. However, nothing else made much sense military wise, except the very last artillery barrage, the likes of which we should have been seeing all the time during this fight, not only when the humans were losing.

Same feeling.

I was glad HS version was censored.

I'm a bit surprised mankind is focusing so much on gundam like machines when there are so many other ways to fight. Not that I know what should be done, but it seems taking years to train pilots for so little efficiency is a tad strange.

After all, those BETA use rather simple but efficient attack methods with specialized species.

Seems like laser type are overkill. They are quite small compared to other, but are very precise AND shoot powerful lasers. Those 2 specs give them incredible advantage as it's difficult to shoot them since they're small and they can shoot you easily.

Also, if BETA can have such lasers, why can't mankind reverse engineer some of the tech involved, even if biological?
A basic idea would be to interface a brainless lasertype... even if it works for some hours only.

[Archangel]

This show is hilarious.

[Kraco]

Yeah. I bet you could manufacture tens of thousands of AT mines for the same price as one of these mecha units with all of its accessories and whatnot. These betas seemed to be blindly charging forward, so they would have happily stomped into a minefield. The mechas were carrying 30mm autocannons, if memory serves, which means a simple and cheap 50mm gun would have been highly effective and quite cheap even to leave behind when retreating. But most of all they should have used indirect fire in the form of heavy artillery and rocket launchers all the time. You can shell targets accurately from tens of kilometers away, that is, from distances far greater than a land based laser cannon can achieve because of its need of a direct line of fire. So, there's actually little need to engage these dull beasts eye to eye, until the remains reach the last line of defense. All you'd need would be some brave individuals hidden in line of sight to give the target coordinates, unless you wanted to randomly bombard them.

But then again, this is a mecha series, so who am I kidding? I didn't actually expect anything like that, but I sure expected the veterans to fight better than the girls and the betas to be much more fearsome.

[Xelbair]

I find the series so far really good.
AT mines could work well vs Destroyer class, but tanks on the other hand would be useless due to their frontal armor.
Artilery strikes require coords - and we don't know how betas are detecting threats - visual targeting is a 100% sure for laser class, but other classes might use something else(heat for example) that would make scouts useless.

[Yukimura]

But then again, this is a mecha series, so who am I kidding?

Exactly, if you're going to watch a mecha show you can't let yourself go down the 'why do they use mecha instead of X, that makes no sense' thought process. The question will never be answered satisfactorily in universe because mecha are a cause of their universe not an effect. It's best to think of them in the same vein as Superman or magical girls or Godzilla. Their existence and properties must be be taken for granted as is within the universe otherwise the universe itself must be rejected. The fact that they are or seem to be technologically feasible is a misdirection as they will never be any more any more bound to reality than Santa and his flying reindeer.

I didn't actually expect anything like that, but I sure expected the veterans to fight better than the girls

We must never forget, 08th MS team is the exception not the rule, in mecha, the younger you are the higher your maximum potential fighting ability is. Veteran mecha pilots can at best fight younger pilots to a stalemate after their first skirmish which the vet may win to show he's not just another grunt, however young pilots always have a fair or better shot at blowing veterans out of the sky regardless of how much actual experience they have.

tl;dr mecha are not built to suit the universe they inhabit, the universe they inhabit is built to give the mecha something to do, they are a cause of the universe, not an effect of the universe.


Actual content:
It seems that the TSF's fulfill a similar role to attack helicopters in our world focusing on agility and mission flexibility over payload size or speed. This is probably the only way to survive close up contact with the laser class. I look forward to seeing what they come up with to actually stand up to the BETA once things get real.

[Ryllharu]

I can kind of appreciate the fact that that BETA simply use mixed-unit tactics to completely trample humanity. The Destroyers absolutely tear through front line, but as a trade off for that durability, are weak from behind. Yet they in turn are covered by mid-rear forces, the Lasers. Leaping over Destroyers to get at the Lasers would be effective, if not for the third type, which are moderately strong attackers with good mobility.

This is pretty much the way a real alien invasion would go down. If they're advanced enough to cross star systems to get to Earth, they're advanced enough to crush humanity completely. The BETA have overwhelming numbers on their side too. We can't even leave the Solar System, and there are so few stories out there were a race advanced enough to do so doesn't also have the means to dominate Earth.

Still, how or why they're so strong doesn't particularly matter. All that matters is that they push humanity to the brink.

Watching this episode, I also wouldn't say it's a matter of the girls fighting better than the veterans. Everyone sucks against the BETA. Our viewpoint is just focused on them longer. Yui loses a comrade every couple minutes, and that's not even in real time given the cutaways to her uncle, the regular forces, or whoever. The majority of the time where they're surviving, they're retreating at full speed.

[Kraco]

Watching this episode, I also wouldn't say it's a matter of the girls fighting better than the veterans.

It's true they lost members all the time, especially to the laser class (which is why I call the laser class the only really believably tough opponent). However, once they landed in the previous episode, they kept fighting at approximately that same area for a long time, all the way to engaging a whole pile of enemies in melee combat. They only started to lose when the first wave of beta wasn't the only wave, after all. However, the regular military (maybe I shouldn't call them veterans as there's no guarantee of that, but nonetheless they weren't trainees anymore) got simply overrun by the first melee betas.

Since I accept the existence of mecha in a mecha universe, my remaining problem is twofold: Don't try to make the enemies look stronger by making humans look stupid and ineffectual. Don't make n00b main characters look special by making real soldiers far too weak. Neither of these errors in the eps were by any means unavoidable.

We must never forget, 08th MS team is the exception not the rule, in mecha, the younger you are the higher your maximum potential fighting ability is. Veteran mecha pilots can at best fight younger pilots to a stalemate after their first skirmish which the vet may win to show he's not just another grunt, however young pilots always have a fair or better shot at blowing veterans out of the sky regardless of how much actual experience they have.

That's certainly true for great many shows, but it's hardly a universal rule. More often than not it's simply a result of the fact the main characters tend to be young for the sake of the younger audiences. But even in something like Gundam 00 the sheer superiority of the machine and experience seemed to be more important than any other factor (aside from the main character status). My favourite character Ali showed that multiple times, not only in the beginning. He was an old man for action by anime standards, yet kicked more ass than pretty much anybody.

[Xelbair]

It's true they lost members all the time, especially to the laser class (which is why I call the laser class the only really believably tough opponent). However, once they landed in the previous episode, they kept fighting at approximately that same area for a long time, all the way to engaging a whole pile of enemies in melee combat. They only started to lose when the first wave of beta wasn't the only wave, after all. However, the regular military (maybe I shouldn't call them veterans as there's no guarantee of that, but nonetheless they weren't trainees anymore) got simply overrun by the first melee betas.

Since I accept the existence of mecha in a mecha universe, my remaining problem is twofold: Don't try to make the enemies look stronger by making humans look stupid and ineffectual. Don't make n00b main characters look special by making real soldiers far too weak. Neither of these errors in the eps were by any means unavoidable.

That's certainly true for great many shows, but it's hardly a universal rule. More often than not it's simply a result of the fact the main characters tend to be young for the sake of the younger audiences. But even in something like Gundam 00 the sheer superiority of the machine and experience seemed to be more important than any other factor (aside from the main character status). My favourite character Ali showed that multiple times, not only in the beginning. He was an old man for action by anime standards, yet kicked more ass than pretty much anybody.

Remember that they weren't attacked back there by either laser class, nor the destroyer class - just the fast grunts surrounded them.

[Yukimura]

@Kraco You're right about Prince Ali, he was on a whole other level like Char Aznable or Zechs Marquise. Where I was focusing my attention was on front line soldiers who may show up for an ep or two but aren't major characters (e.g. the captain of Louise's squad in Gundam 00 S2 who got pixy dust pwned), those are the ones that my 'rule' most applies to. Season long nemeses have to follow different rules.

Anyway, after watching ep 2 I can see where you all were coming from a lot better. The BETA's tactics are rather brutal, but the way the Japanese are fighting back seems somewhat wasteful in manpower and equipment unless that's all the choice left to them, which is quite plausible.
Bringing the rain from off shore or artillery positions seems like the only viable way to stem the Beta's advance as they don't seem to get tired or slowed by the environment. Fighting them close up on the other hand seems like suicide because of their horrifying numerical advantage. However, if you split them into manageable groups and could avoid/take out the Lasers it seems like a given finite supply of BETA should be susceptible to the skillful application of the maneuverability and precision offered by a TSF (though TSF's could probably stand to pack a bigger punch). I think in the case of the first two eps Japan just got overwhelmed by sheer numbers and lack of terrain to fall back along while whittling away at the enemy with a scorched earth style artillery barrage.

The BETA have an advantage that makes the tactical capabilities of humanity pointless. They don't seem to be bound by remotely comparable resource limitations. I suspect that a Laser class can't run out of ammo, that a Destroyer class can run flat out and trample anything in it's path indefinitely longer than humans could spend time putting impediments in front of them, and that those scorpion things can rip things apart indefinitely longer than humans could put things in their midst to rip apart. All that is compounded by the fact that there are just way more BETA than human military people/machines.

[shinta|hikari]

They were all overrun and almost wiped out. The only reason the non-trainees seem to have died faster is because they simply are not supposed to have screentime. In the small clips, they do manage to kill Beta too, but they eventually died. That is all those scenes are saying. The speed or ease of their defeat compared to the trainees are illusions created by screentime.