Movie: Man of Steel

[darkshadow]

That means Kal's body will not change shape (that means not getting hurt right? Because I believe if I get hit by something that cannot even change the shape of my skin, it won't really hurt?). Like I said, the force will act on him, and he will fly off, but he won't get hurt. Their fists on the other hand, should be the same hardness as the rest of their body. Even with "less" force, it should damage them much more.

In addition, the amount of force exerted by their fists already far exceed what little extra weight the steel beam can provide. Think of it in relative terms. The weight of the steel beam to the aliens is like the weight of a (heavy) pillow to humans.

Not really, the shockwave from an explosion can completely kill you, even though you'd show no external damage, and since the kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed, an object doubling its speed has four times as much kinetic energy, thus swinging the beam with as much force as zod can, the beam generates much more force than he could with a punch.

Even if the beam desintergrated on impact (your pillow analogy), the resulting force will still hurt; like smashing a bottle on someone's much harder skull.

[shinta|hikari]

That is assuming that the insides of the aliens are much softer than their skin and susceptible to damage by impact, which is obviously untrue like I said because you see them smashing into buildings with no damage.

Your bottle analogy only works because the human brain is really soft and susceptible to damage. Imagine if the brain was as tough as the skull that surrounds it, or at the very least much tougher than the bottle.

In addition, my pillow analogy isn't just about the hardness of the pillow, but also the weight. The steel beam isn't heavy to the aliens. It is light like a pillow, and by consequence should hit like a pillow.

If he used his fist however, it should have (but it didn't for some reason) at least broken skin and bruised muscle considering they are of the same hardness. The only reason I can think of for that not happening is because the aliens' hardness and toughness are much much higher than the power they can exert... that or they cannot afford to make Superman look banged up and/or dirty.

The reason why they ended that fight with a neck break is because nothing on Earth aside from that could have hurt those two. They had to make it alien muscle vs alien muscle in the end. That is why it is odd for Zod who prides himself a born and trained warrior to even think of hurting Kal with a single featherweight steel beam.

EDIT: I also wonder about your kinetic energy equation. Why did you mention speed? If we are talking about the addition of the steel beam, then weight would be its only asset. The speed in this instance is generated by Zod. In fact, the speed of the attack would decrease with the addition of the weight (but this is pointless because the weight added is puny to begin with). Think boxer vs batter, only replace the bat with a baguette.

What I was saying is that the weight of the steel beam itself, even if used with the force of an alien, is negligible to the aliens, and is not worth sacrificing the hardness of their fist.

[darkshadow]

That is assuming that the insides of the aliens are much softer than their skin and susceptible to damage by impact, which is obviously untrue like I said because you see them smashing into buildings with no damage.

Yeah, but no, just because they don't show blood everywhere or bruises doesn't mean they haven't been damaged, they just heal super fast; Zod doesn't heal on Krypton and thus they show him get cut, on earth kryptonians definitely do get damaged, but they just heal so fast it looks like nothing happened.
Forces definitely acted on them and since this isn't silver age supes, he definitely hurts for being smashed through a building, even if it's only for a split second

Your bottle analogy only works because the human brain is really soft and susceptible to damage. Imagine if the brain was as tough as the skull that surrounds it, or at the very least much tougher than the bottle.

Uhh yeah, but no again, your brain doesn't have pain receptors at all, but busting that bottle will hurt much more than just punching a person on the forehead, simply because the surface area is hit with more force; and if you are refering to a knock out, which I'm not, that is because so much force permeates through that your brain starts bouncing around in your skull, which could and has happened to supes before.

The reason why they ended that fight with a neck break is because nothing on Earth aside from that could have hurt those two. They had to make it alien muscle vs alien muscle in the end. That is why it is odd for Zod who prides himself a born and trained warrior to even think of hurting Kal with a single featherweight steel beam.

EDIT: I also wonder about your kinetic energy equation. Why did you mention speed? If we are talking about the addition of the steel beam, then weight would be its only asset. The speed in this instance is generated by Zod. In fact, the speed of the attack would decrease with the addition of the weight (but this is pointless because the weight added is puny to begin with). Think boxer vs batter, only replace the bat with a baguette.

What I was saying is that the weight of the steel beam itself, even if used with the force of an alien, is negligible to the aliens, and is not worth sacrificing the hardness of their fist.

Again this isn't silver ages supes, he had major issues holding up the oil rig tower even, the single beam is much more than a "featherweight", a tower like that made out of feathers would still weigh nothing, since even a 100 thousand feathers wouldn't even weigh more than 5kgs.

And speed is mentioned because of how weight and thus force, massively changes when accelerated; Zod can swing the beam at a much faster speed than he could punch which would make the resulting force prolly more than the tower was exerting on supes when he was holding it back, which would ofcourse make the beam desintergrate but that doesn't matter.
It was only "slow" for dramatic effect, it made perfect sense combat wise.

[shinta|hikari]

You referenced a lot of stuff that was not shown in the movie, like super healing. How was I supposed to know they were actually wounded by the crashes and dirtied by all that dust and debris, but those were simply healed and cleaned in the instant they weren't shown onscreen? I know Superman has super healing, but they did change a lot of his powers in this film.

I know the brain has no pain receptors. If you read my post, I was talking about damage. Not your brain itself feeling pain or being KOd, just simple damage. You see, when I saw them getting up again and again as if nothing was hurting them, I actually assumed that they were not being hurt. I did not know they were actually getting battered but healing and tidying up off screen.

Kal's power in the film seemed to show significant growth since the oil rig incident. He even managed to break the alien machine that was using gravity to smash a city (from within the gravity beam!). Sure he had incredible trouble at first, but then he shouted.

I maintain that since the steel beam is less durable and softer than the aliens, it should not be able to hurt them. It may allow for a faster attack (more forceful, but not really easier to land because it requires wind up and is more predictable) and better range, which are all good, but hitting enemies with pillows really fast from far away is still hitting enemies with pillows. However, I said all that with the assumption that they were not being hurt or damaged by the impact. If as you say they were actually being invisibly damaged, then the steel beam would actually be a bat than a pillow/baguette, and is a decent weapon of choice.

I am not a superman fan, nor do I know much about his history and changes to his powers. This means that my understanding of the events of the movie will differ from fans, and that is probably where our opinions diverge.

[darkshadow]

You referenced a lot of stuff that was not shown in the movie, like super healing. How was I supposed to know they were actually wounded by the crashes and dirtied by all that dust and debris, but those were simply healed and cleaned in the instant they weren't shown onscreen? I know Superman has super healing, but they did change a lot of his powers in this film.

Dirt maybe, but their wounds/bruises simply heal up much faster than us feeble humans can see.
And they really didn't change any of his powers, he only lacks his freeze breath, but other than that his strength is very much in line with many of his comic book and animated incarnations

I know the brain has no pain receptors. If you read my post, I was talking about damage. Not your brain itself feeling pain or being KOd, just simple damage. You see, when I saw them getting up again and again as if nothing was hurting them, I actually assumed that they were not being hurt. I did not know they were actually getting battered but healing and tidying up off screen.

Kal's power in the film seemed to show significant growth since the oil rig incident. He even managed to break the alien machine that was using gravity to smash a city (from within the gravity beam!). Sure he had incredible trouble at first, but then he shouted.

They heal quickly but high forces still damage them enough to get them winded/KO several times throughout the movie; the coolest character in the movie Faora even goes KO from a missle explosion, prior to that supes actually gets winded from flying through all those structures and exploding gas station, and when he gets double teamed, Faora and the big guy even KO him again for a couple seconds.
You can also hear all of them grunt in pain in several instances, supes even screams in pain when he grinds his face in that building right before Zod gets heat vision.

With the gravity machine, supes went beyond his limits, which harkens back to Jor-El's words of him having to push himself.
After he destroys it you can actually see him reaching for sunlight because that shit pretty much drained him. The flight itself is also a form of anti-gravity, he wasn't actually pushing against the machine with just his muscle like with the oil-rig.
So yeah all of the kryptionians get pretty fucked up throughout the fights, enough so even that their healing can't keep up with still feeling pain or going KO.

If as you say they were actually being invisibly damaged, then the steel beam would actually be a bat than a pillow/baguette, and is a decent weapon of choice.

It is as I say obv.


Also someone made a point about the family just standing their while Zod was trying to kill them, not true, they were very visibly boxed in; on the left there was Heat vision and on the right there was a wall and rubble, they had nowhere to go.

[shinta|hikari]

Why couldn't they have just shown us the super healing then? It would have a bit more sense for the people who aren't going to assume things that were not shown in the movie itself.

The grunting, getting winded, screaming, and lying on the ground you mentioned looked like they were just playing sports (humans do that all the time during physical activity) because there was no blood or dirt on them. Their appearance during what you say are fights where the aliens are getting pretty fucked up is counter intuitive.

Going beyond your limits is well, deus ex machina.

About Zod and the human family, the humans weren't boxed in. The heat vision was crawling towards them from Zod's eyes in a straight line. That means there is a clear path from Zod to them while the the heat vision is still to their right. If there was anything blocking their escape, it would have blocked the heat vision as well (although that would not have helped, I am just stating this to show their relative positions in the scene). They just had to run forward before the heat vision reaches them, and they had a long time to do that. In addition, they could have just ducked under the beam and ran. I know that is scary, but it is far better than just staring at a death ray for no apparent reason while it tries to kill you.

I do agree that Faora is cool.

I will bow out of this discussion because I don't see anything new or interesting coming out of it anymore. As is obvious, I am not enough of a fan or hater of Superman or the movie to keep going after all this.

[darkshadow]

Why couldn't they have just shown us the super healing then? It would have a bit more sense for the people who aren't going to assume things that were not shown in the movie itself.

I guess..

Going beyond your limits is well, deus ex machina.

Not really, what I meant is he gave it his all, that thing could've actually killed him, and if it wasn't for the sun's rays afterwards he prolly would've, or at the very least stay out of commission for a long time.

About Zod and the human family, the humans weren't boxed in. The heat vision was crawling towards them from Zod's eyes in a straight line. That means there is a clear path from Zod to them while the the heat vision is still to their right. If there was anything blocking their escape, it would have blocked the heat vision as well (although that would not have helped, I am just stating this to show their relative positions in the scene). They just had to run forward before the heat vision reaches them, and they had a long time to do that. In addition, they could have just ducked under the beam and ran. I know that is scary, but it is far better than just staring at a death ray for no apparent reason while it tries to kill you.

They were scared, plus the beam is super hot, even if you go under it or towards zod (which also puts you closer because of the wall and rubble), you'll still get burned.
But yeah they were just scared.

[Y]

The most interesting part of the new Superman movie is the physics of him hitting people with things? No wonder the movie got such mixed reviews.

[Shadow Skill]

70 % decline in profits over 1 week. :/

Does not bode well for the Flying Batman minus the cowl in a rubber suit that is apparently alien movie. :/

[UChessmaster]

Let`s ignore the fact that it was competing with Monster University and WWZ

[darkshadow]

My review is on my blog btw.

[Shadow Skill]

Just saw it tonight. I didn't like. I liked Returns more than this. The returns outfit is more awesome.

Near the end when the lex corp rig truck exploded he turns around and stares up at the fire... like wtf? He did that in a lot of the fight scenes, day dreaming while fighting? The scream was so unbelievable at the end. Lets not forget Jor-El's fight across the planet. Super weapons destroying metallic ships but only gives his flying dragon a scratch? Like WTYF!?!?!?!

I give up on Hollywood ever making a good Superman movie. So far just Superman from 1978 and Super Returns my favorites.

Not too keen on the whole our atmosphere makes them have a tough time breathing, You know, Clark spent most his childhood getting use to... and Zod and his goons take all of but 2 minutes to adjust. Uhh... ya...

The suit is just fugly. Rather than make a new suit (Batman suit minus the cowl), they should have just revised the Superman outfit cause the Superman Returns outfit is the best so far.

Ya, I did not like how this movie was portrayed.

[darkshadow]

Your arguments are almost as bad as Superman Returns is.

[Shadow Skill]

All valid

[Kraco]

Why did Zodd use a steel beam to try and hit Kal? Their flesh is obviously harder than steel. Using a blunt bashing weapon that is softer than the thing you are hitting does not make sense. It's like trying to smack a human with a baguette. Born to be a warrior, LOL.

He had been a soldier on Krypton all his life and on Earth for mere minutes (if you count only the time he was doing any fighting or related activities, which is the only time he really experienced the fancy power they have on Earth). On Kypton these folks didn't seem like anything extraordinary and used weapons just like humans do on Earth. So, it makes sense in the heat of a battle he would occasionally grab anything that might serve as a weapon out of pure instinct. Because he's a warrior and not a wussy trying to claw and slap.

Yeah, they kind of glossed over the fact that superman was treated like shit by some people and with kindness by some others. But the obvious choice would still be to save humanity, his bullying wasn't that bad at all compared to the average kid (as seen by the movie). They really could have done a lot more to drive the stakes. I mean is it really that hard to choose 8 billion sentient people over the crazed lunatic who murdered your father and was basically a douche upon meeting you? lol no (But the Joker + 2 face stakes were way more thrilling, as well as the stakes of being thrown into limbo+Mal the subconsious for Inception)

Nobody sane would have sided with the lunatic murderer, but he still had to choose to destroy perhaps the last hope he had of reviving his own people. He talked of trust, but he also had to decide whether he could trust his own people. He decided he couldn't (they had their chance, like he said).

I thought this movie quite good. The characters and their motivations worked better than what I remember of the old movies.

[Sapphire]

LOL This video is so relevant.

[Animeniax]

Just saw it tonight. I didn't like. I liked Returns more than this. The returns outfit is more awesome.

Near the end when the lex corp rig truck exploded he turns around and stares up at the fire... like wtf? He did that in a lot of the fight scenes, day dreaming while fighting? The scream was so unbelievable at the end. Lets not forget Jor-El's fight across the planet. Super weapons destroying metallic ships but only gives his flying dragon a scratch? Like WTYF!?!?!?!

I give up on Hollywood ever making a good Superman movie. So far just Superman from 1978 and Super Returns my favorites.

Not too keen on the whole our atmosphere makes them have a tough time breathing, You know, Clark spent most his childhood getting use to... and Zod and his goons take all of but 2 minutes to adjust. Uhh... ya...

The suit is just fugly. Rather than make a new suit (Batman suit minus the cowl), they should have just revised the Superman outfit cause the Superman Returns outfit is the best so far.

Ya, I did not like how this movie was portrayed.

Agree with you and Sapphire about pretty much everything concerning this movie. What a mess of a movie and a complete disappointment.

Some stuff that stuck in my mind as particularly bad:

Zod was bred and trained to be a warrior yet Jor-el the scientist kicked his ass in hand-to-hand combat.

Calling him "Cal" was the most obnoxious shit in a movie since Darth Vader was called "Ani".

I also thought it was ridiculous how quickly Zod and his men adapted to their new powers.

This was basically a natural disaster movie and sucked as bad as all of those.

This movie focused on the weirdest little crap and wasted so much time on that crap that could have been used on character development or relationships. I'm still stunned that Zack Snyder was involved in this mess. Wasn't surprised to see Nolan was involved though.

[Shadow Skill]

Well... all that crap in the fights doesn't = a broken neck but one headlock does... stupidest shit ever.

[UChessmaster]

Zod was bred and trained to be a warrior yet Jor-el the scientist kicked his ass in hand-to-hand combat.

Haen`t seen the movie, but in the comics Jor-el has always been a badass fighter, I can totally see him destroying Zod, same goes for his wife.

[Animeniax]

Well... all that crap in the fights doesn't = a broken neck but one headlock does... stupidest shit ever.

One of the many ridiculous aspects in this film was the Van Damme neck snap to finish Zod, as well as the entire scene leading up to it. Notice though how brilliantly they foreshadowed the finishing move minutes earlier when Zod's lieutenant does the same move on a hapless soldier while trying to get at Colonel Supporting Role.

Haen`t seen the movie, but in the comics Jor-el has always been a badass fighter, I can totally see him destroying Zod, same goes for his wife.

Well hopefully with all you've read here you'll go into the movie with low expectations and actually enjoy it.

Spoiler: in the movie Kryptonians are test tube babies bred for specific roles, so Jor-el, being the top science guy on Krypton, would not have the skills to beat up the top military/fighter guy. It completely disregards a large premise of the movie: predestination of Krypton's people vs Kal-el's freedom to live as he chooses, something we earthlings represent and the reason we are worth saving.