Movie: Man of Steel

[Abdula]

Ah you posted while I was replying.

WHY even call it superman then if he's one of us.

That is exactly it. They try to make Superman way too human. Like Ani intimated in the Reeve movies there was no Kal-El. There was Clark Kent who pretended to be a bumbling idiot, who would then put on his superhero costume and occasionally save the day but mostly try to court Lois. In Superman Returns, again there was Clark pining about his lost love and his son. Man of Steel needs a Kal-El. A benevolent yet completely alien entity that mankind recognizes for the legitimate threat that he is.

Intelligence can be effectively suppressed, it depends on your environment. Clark grew up on a farm in a small town, not much chance his intellect would be challenged or nurtured there. Plus the crash landing could have scrambled his brain like with Goku.

And MoS seems to treat Clark's vulnerability with more insight and understanding of the human condition, of being an outsider and wanting to belong and be normal. The original Superman movies made him a bumbling idiot and then straight pussy. A 6'4" 225lb man who is used to kicking ass wouldn't suddenly not be able to defend himself again some drunk at a diner.

I will grant you your first two points but it does not really relate to his intelligence later in life unless you want to argue that people who grew up on farms are stupid. Which would just piss me off. Goku though, I can't believe you went there.

The problem is that every superman movie does that, its trite. Then it comes down to does Superman masquerade as Clark Kent or does Clark Kent Masquerade as Superman. Superman is an alien, he is supposed to be an outsider and supposed to be different, yet Bruce Wayne in the Nolan movies feels like more of alien that operates outside of societies norm than Clark Kent does. I always end up comparing the two characters and how they have developed over the years. Particularly how Clark Kent tries so hard to fit in and not draw any undue attention to himself while Bruce Wayne really doesn't give a damn. Perhaps it has more to do with the fact that Bruce Wayne is always Batman but Clark Kent is not Superman which is just weird. I am hoping that Man of Steel is less about a man who just happens to have super powers trying to fit in and explore what it means to be human and more a God among us.

I try to not be too critical of Superman movies, not that there isn't a lot to criticize but it is superman and there hasn't been quality superman movies and the first 2 were good for their time. In the scene your referring to, Clark's reaction had more to do with shock and naivete than anything else.

[Animeniax]

What I am trying to say by dumbed down is he persona. He's essentially an empty shell. Why remove any element of him bring kryptonian and make him more human?

Superman can fly, has super speed on par with the flash or faster. He's fucking invincible as long as he stays on Earth and absorbs yellow sunlight. His strength is immeasurable. He has heat vision, x-ray vision, super hearing and none of which has been exploited to this day aside from the million selling comics every month.

When they make a movie it's OH lets make him more human so we as mere mortal men can relate to him"

WHY even call it superman then if he's one of us. There's really no point to want to dream of being superman anymore. Everything that set superman aside from us and him has been taken away. Superman is basically now just a lil more evolved human if you believe in evolution.

According to the behind the scenes, doesn't even look like Lois Lane is a love interest. When I say DUMBED DOWN. I mean really dumbed down cause you know, Hollywood doesn't think the 100s of millions of people who read the comics can't possibly believe Supernan needs to be up there on his pedestal.
/

I think this movie in trying to portray Superman as more human is a dramatic change from the previous movies and depictions (except maybe more recent comics). Instead of being this monolithic unstoppable force, he's deeper and has more to him than the "pursuit of peace, justice, and Lois Lane." He is an alien and we would treat him with fear and outcast him, and he has to work through that because he grew up just wanting to be one of the guys. That's what I'm seeing in the trailers. Yes it's a bit angsty and emo, but welcome to the new millenium where finding oneself pretty much trumps all else in the human experience.

Did you miss all the parts with Jor-El saying he'd be a god to us and a beacon of light and hope to lead us?

And Lois Lane is definitely a love interest. They show them kissing in one of the trailers. I'd be happy if they didn't explore a love story in this first movie, considering how much else they need to cover.

Ah you posted while I was replying.
That is exactly it. They try to make Superman way too human. Like Ani intimated in the Reeve movies there was no Kal-El. There was Clark Kent who pretended to be a bumbling idiot, who would then put on his superhero costume and occasionally save the day but mostly try to court Lois. In Superman Returns, again there was Clark pining about his lost love and his son. Man of Steel needs a Kal-El. A benevolent yet completely alien entity that mankind recognizes for the legitimate threat that he is.

I will grant you your first two points but it does not really relate to his intelligence later in life unless you want to argue that people who grew up on farms are stupid. Which would just piss me off. Goku though, I can't believe you went there.

The problem is that every superman movie does that, its trite. Then it comes down to does Superman masquerade as Clark Kent or does Clark Kent Masquerade as Superman. Superman is an alien, he is supposed to be an outsider and supposed to be different, yet Bruce Wayne in the Nolan movies feels like more of alien that operates outside of societies norm than Clark Kent does. I always end up comparing the two characters and how they have developed over the years. Particularly how Clark Kent tries so hard to fit in and not draw any undue attention to himself while Bruce Wayne really doesn't give a damn. Perhaps it has more to do with the fact that Bruce Wayne is always Batman but Clark Kent is not Superman which is just weird. I am hoping that Man of Steel is less about a man who just happens to have super powers trying to fit in and explore what it means to be human and more a God among us.

I try to not be too critical of Superman movies, not that there isn't a lot to criticize but it is superman and there hasn't been quality superman movies and the first 2 were good for their time. In the scene your referring to, Clark's reaction had more to do with shock and naivete than anything else.

If your point is to rag on the first 4 Superman movies then you'll find no argument from me. They were pretty bad in hindsight, but the first 2 were amazing in their time. There was mention of Kal-el and he watched the recorded footage of his father, but I think the writers felt they wouldn't need to explore his alien roots because that wasn't their goal. They probably felt that a man who could fly/lift heavy stuff/shoot lasers from his eyes was alien enough to their viewers. Of course this was the 70s and 80s and nowadays he'd be a pretty boring character if that was all he could do.

But MoS seems to address some of your concerns, though not the one about being a God among humans. I don't think that will ever be part of Superman. His entire character and history is about being one of us, even though he could rule us.

[Shadow Skill]

He's a grown up man... wanting to fit in and be one of the guys. Should have ended when he became an adult.

I stopped worrying about what other people thought when I had to get a job and support myself. I don't understand why Hollywood would make a grownup superhero in a movie act like a teenager.

Sure for Batman that worked, but this is Superman. I honestly don't know. I hope the movie does well, for sequels or more Superman movies.

I just hope one day Hollywood gets it right.

To the Goku comment. Even with all the canon available to Hollywood, they still managed to ruin a Dragon Ball movie lol. Lets forget the Live action DB even exists.

[Animeniax]

Not if you spent your entire adolescence and teenage years not fitting in and feeling like an outcast. Young adults today don't feel like they fit it, so just imagine how an actual alien with scary dangerous powers but a kind heart would feel.

If you handled it better then good for you. I'll admit (and I'm sure it's evident) that even in my 30s I still don't feel like I fit in and I'm still trying to find myself. Shit I hardly fit in on a forum full of weirdos like myself. If you added super powers and the ability to lash out without consequence, you'd have heard about me on the news by now.

I wasn't talking about the live action DB stuff, but his story in the anime/manga is similar to Superman. They just chose good for different reasons, but they both have the potential to be destroyers.

[Shadow Skill]

True and good points. I think Superman should never be one of us. Not Kal'El or Superman.

Smallville did a good enough portrayal of Clark Kent trying to fit in to be human. I don't think any new Superman movies should be trying to cover that aspect. Man of Steel/Superman... why not just go with that.

I can't help but think back to the anime Gurren Laggan where every episode got more epic and more climatic to the last episode even then it got more over the top epic. Sure the suit kept transforming, but I would like to see a Superman movie where he's not a wuss and a puss and limited to flying 1000km/hour and has no powers. That's not Superman at all. I think this is why Avengers did so well. They had their powers and they made full use of them throughout the movie no limits.

So what if he fights another enemy as strong as him and he is sent hurtling half way around the planet. Don't let him get up like he got hit with a kryptonite punch and is now wobbling and disoriented. Let him get up and fight like he should and use all his powers and more. I'd rather watch a proper Superman movie that fails at the box office than one that trying to relate to normal men. :/

[UChessmaster]

I agree with Animeniax *implodes*

[Sapphire]

This is out in just six days! I'm excited.

--

First off, was this stated? How can Superman not know that having a bunch of unprotected sex with Lois Lane is going to get her pregnant? He isn't a sheltered highschooler. Plus he can see atoms, I don't think he'd fail to notice a pregnancy. I just assumes his tour in space took WAY longer than he intended. In any case, Superman abandoned Lois for nebulous and poorly fleshed out reasons (handled largely in a TEXT CRAWL at the start of the movie) and combined with his Super-Stalking later in the movie just comes off as a creepy asshole.

I think he could hear the sperm pierce the egg when he laid his super-sperm inside her. Shit, his ejaculation should have caused internal hemorrhaging for Lois.

But plot holes aside, maybe the birds and the bees work differently on Krypton, or maybe his adoptive Aunt and Uncle never taught him about sex ed. He was raised in a rural setting where they have conservative values and don't believe in sex ed in schools, only prayer.

Oh dear god, I feel so primed to watch this movie thanks to these posts.

[Animeniax]

This is out in just six days! I'm excited.

Oh dear god, I feel so primed to watch this movie thanks to these posts.

All the talk about sex in those posts + Henry Cavill = wet Sapphy. I'll admit, and no romo, but Cavill is a good looking dude. I don't think Amy Adams quite fits as Lois Lane, though Margot Kidder wasn't particularly hot whereas Reeves was also a manly man and a good looking dude.

True and good points. I think Superman should never be one of us. Not Kal'El or Superman.

Smallville did a good enough portrayal of Clark Kent trying to fit in to be human. I don't think any new Superman movies should be trying to cover that aspect. Man of Steel/Superman... why not just go with that.

So what if he fights another enemy as strong as him and he is sent hurtling half way around the planet. Don't let him get up like he got hit with a kryptonite punch and is now wobbling and disoriented. Let him get up and fight like he should and use all his powers and more. I'd rather watch a proper Superman movie that fails at the box office than one that trying to relate to normal men. :/

I never watched Smallville so I'm happy to see them explore Clark as a human. From the trailers, I don't think he's trying to fit in so much as trying to understand his origins and purpose. As a kid he tries, but as a man he seems to be a loner trying to stay under the radar. It kind of feels like "I am Number 4" except Clark is smarter about hiding his abilities until someone is in grave peril.

The thing with making Superman too super is that he's then an automaton and not a person. Plus if he's fighting enemies as strong as him, he can't just shrug off their attacks, he will feel the pain and it will be a struggle to beat them.

[Abdula]

Not if you spent your entire adolescence and teenage years not fitting in and feeling like an outcast. Young adults today don't feel like they fit it, so just imagine how an actual alien with scary dangerous powers but a kind heart would feel.

If you handled it better then good for you. I'll admit (and I'm sure it's evident) that even in my 30s I still don't feel like I fit in and I'm still trying to find myself. Shit I hardly fit in on a forum full of weirdos like myself. If you added super powers and the ability to lash out without consequence, you'd have heard about me on the news by now.

That is just it though. It is incredibly unrealistic that such a being would try to fit in. I don't really fit in, never have and I don't try to. Most people would find me weird and I accept that because I am very different from what most people would expect me to be. You're looking at it from the pov of a human being trying to find his place among other human beings and Superman is not. You said you find it hard to fit in, imagine if you had incredible strength, speed, hearing, the ability to defy gravity. If you didn't feel hot or cold, didn't need to eat, couldn't shave normally. Didn't allow others to get physically close to you because they would ofcourse notice that your skin is nigh impenetrable etc. Not to mention the constant strain of having to control your abilities for fear of unintentionally hurting someone. Hell have you ever accidentally cut your finger, stubbed your toe, got burnt, felt like you were in mortal danger. He never has. For a being like that wouldn't trying to fit in an be normal only make you feel worse. When you try to fit in and discover that no matter how much you try you just don't, doesn't that only make you feel worse. The constantly trying to be like everyone else when you are not and repressing yourself will only drive you insane. Anyway that is my point, they keep making superman into a human being with powers when he is not a human being at all and has never had to deal with experiences most human beings have had to. The perspective is all wrong

It is too bad that you still don't feel like you fit in though. I find it funny that you think you would lash out at everyone. Why is that and particularly why do you want the ability to do so without consequences? There are always consequences and from reading your posts, when you feel like you can act without consequences you become an ass.

So what if he fights another enemy as strong as him and he is sent hurtling half way around the planet. Don't let him get up like he got hit with a kryptonite punch and is now wobbling and disoriented. Let him get up and fight like he should and use all his powers and more. I'd rather watch a proper Superman movie that fails at the box office than one that trying to relate to normal men. :/

That is another thing, not just that he seems to get physically hurt when he shouldn't but there have been times when he just stands around having a fist fight with someone and nothing happens. It reminds me of Hercules: The legendary journeys, show was awesome by the way. Hercules would punch Ares for example and he would go flying, get back up, dust himself off, walk back over to Hercules and punch him right back and send him flying in turn. Yet with superman you don't see that happening much. A battle between two superpowered nearly invulnerable beings would do more damage to their environment than they would to each other. Yet that is usually really downplayed.

I never watched Smallville so I'm happy to see them explore Clark as a human. From the trailers, I don't think he's trying to fit in so much as trying to understand his origins and purpose. As a kid he tries, but as a man he seems to be a loner trying to stay under the radar. It kind of feels like "I am Number 4" except Clark is smarter about hiding his abilities until someone is in grave peril.

Which is why I am looking forward to this.

Clark in smallville was just terrible absolutely terrible. He was a whiny, angsty, emotionally needy child and that was when he wasn't being schizophrenic. The show started out good and showed promise but there was little character development.

I think Sapphire was being sarcastic, but maybe not.

[Shadow Skill]

The thing with Hercules the legendary journeys was that the show was fun to watch. They exploited his strength every episode, as they should. Why have all these powers and then downplay them? They do that in every Superman movie so far, in the 78/80s movies.

Only Superman Returns did they show his strength but wasn't even all his strength when he lifted the continent size land to space.

Sounds like Man of Steel, his powers will be downplayed even more to make him more human, which I think is total BS. Hell, they even removed his family crest from his cape.

I am just hoping it doesn't bomb at the box office.

[UChessmaster]

@Abdula: You seem to have an interesting notion of what Superman is. How is it that you correlate being strong to having no feelings or emotions? Why do you think he struggles giving handshakes? What makes you think he`s never been in danger considering all the times he`s been exposed to kryptonite and beaten by all these intergalactic enemies he faces regulary?

[Abdula]

I do have interesting notions of what superman is, so does Ani and Y and everyone else I think. I am not trying to imply that he has no feeling or emotions. I really don't know how you came to that conclusion. I don't expect him to feel the same way I do about the same things I do anymore than I would expect you to though. I certainly don't expect to see a movie all about that. Bruce Wayne had a love interest but once he wasn't in cape and cowl he didn't spent all his time pining about her, In the incredible hulk Bruce Banner had a love interest too but the movie wasn't all about that. Do you remember that time travel nonsense from the end of the first Reeve movie, do you remember him giving up his responsibilities and powers and everything else to be with Lois in the second movie and nearly doomed the world. Do you remember him going back to smallville in that abomination of a third movie Superman 3: The Angry Drunk Within. In Superman Returns again he spent most of his time both in an out of costume pining over Lois and wondering whether the kid was his or not. We really don't need more melodrama about some lonely love sick puppy who just happens to have superpowers.

Well if I was strong enough to crush tempered steel without a thought and my skin could deflect bullets I would definitely worry about having to shake someone's hand. They tend to treat his superpowers like he has an on and off switch instead of treating him like a superpowered being who constantly has to control his strength. Like in the Reeve's movies someone would bump into him from behind and he would fall from the unexpected weight which in reality someone like him would barely even notice but when in costume he can catch a falling helicopter without pause. They don't present it as him making a conscious effort to fall naturally. I especially dislike scenes where he takes off his glasses opens his shirt and his entire demeanor changes, like there is suddenly this halo of power radiating from him. Peter Parker doesn't transform when he gets in costume so why does Superman.

You mean in the comics right because this is an origin movie so he would not yet be exposed to any of that. Secondly as has been explored a few times before superman does not feel fear like regular people do. If someone pulls a gun on him he does not fear for his life like a cop would. If he goes into a burning building he does not have to fear the building collapsing on top of him like a firefighter would, not to mention the fire itself would mean nothing to him. It is funny that in a lot of ways Will Smith's character in Hancock behaved more like what I expect from Superman than Superman did in any of his movies.

[Animeniax]

You guys would really want to see two guys hit each other back and forth with no damage to either just the environment being destroyed? What would be the point? And it's not that Superman is invulnerable, there just aren't a lot of beings with the power to harm him. But considering Zod and his soldiers are also from Krypton then they have the same abilities as Kal-el from the yellow sun. So they should be able to hurt each other.

@Abdula: if you really can stand alone as you say then you're one of the few exceptions. Maybe you've accepted that you're not like everyone else and you don't want to fit in, but that's environment and not by nature. Human beings are innately group/pack animals.

If Kal-el had arrived as a man he may not look to fit in, but he arrived as a baby and was nurtured as a human child. He was taught to share, care, and play nice with others. Other beings with his abilities may arrive and look to be a god among men, to help them and protect them, and others may come looking to destroy and conquer. But these are grown men who grew up embracing their power and abilities. Clark grew up fearing and trying to hide his abilities so he would fit in, like his foster parents taught him. I think the 2nd trailer clearly demonstrates that when Jonathan Kent tells young Clark he shouldn't use his powers in public. Clark responds, clearly distraught and in conflict, "what was I supposed to do, just let him die?" The prohibition is so strong that Jonathan replies, "maybe," though they cut off the scene and maybe cut and pasted it for the trailer.

Peter Parker doesn't transform when he gets in costume so why does Superman.

Peter Parker does change drastically when he gets in costume. His behavior, confidence, and even arrogance shine when he's under the mask. Peter doesn't make smart alecky remarks, Spider-man is known for them. While I agree the change from mild mannered Clark Kent to Superman is ridiculous, it's not unheard of.

[UChessmaster]

I read your whole post Abdula and i just don`t quite understand what is it that you want from THIS movie.

[Abdula]

Not much actually. I am pretty much just mentioning a few gripes I have with Superman's portrayal in general.

@Ani:
I would love to see that but not simply because I think it would be awesome but because it is what has been established. Just think of the hulk in action. Yes Supes is not completely invulnerable but that is mostly semantics, There are things that can harm him but aside from those he is invulnerable. I expect him to get hurt if he gets into a fight with a fellow kryptonian or someone of similar power but I would expect a ton of collateral damage, similar to the fight in Hancock. It is more a matter of staying consistent with the physics than anything else. Strength is strength, force is force, mass is mass and density is density.

Ah my point exactly. Superman is not like anyone else and it is not so much about whether he would want to fit in or not but that of all people he should accept that he cannot. You said it is environment and not nature and humans are innately pack animals but Superman is not human so why would he be like us. How much is nature and how much is environment. Why would a completely alien entity behave so much like one of us even if he was raised by us. Is a white parent different from a black parent or an asian parent. Is an American parent different, from a British parent or a Canadian one. Is an extremely rich parent different from an extremely poor parent and are they different from one who is middle class. Yeah they are different but are the differences inherent and is that at all relevant because they are all human and superman is not.

Yes and I hope that they do a better job of exploring that in this one. Growing up with powers as opposed to suddenly developing them. Trying to fit in as opposed to embracing your differences. The innate differences between a kryptonian and a human being, not just their physical abilities. Blah blah. There is a lot they can do with a superman movie, if they wish to make it more than just an action movie without being like the previous movies.

Yes but Peter Parker and Spiderman don't seem like two different people. It is more like guy at work and guy hanging out with friends. You don't really question who he is. But the change Clark goes through is way better than it being Clark Kent all the time and superman is just an act.

[Animeniax]

You've seen the familial love of Kal-el's mother and father, it's very much like any loving human family. They used their only escape craft to spirit their son to safety in another solar system while they stayed on their dying homeworld. He is very much a product of his environment and if he hadn't been fostered by the Kent's he could have turned out like any punk kid, just with scary powers... think Mike Tyson.

[Abdula]

Ah yeah I love the known fact that parental love towards a child is universal, and ofcourse alien parents would not behave any differently from loving human parents. Not mocking you specifically just the general idea that the utopian alien society must be just like ours. You are right though, and in some origin stories his parents went so far as to pick the Kent's specifically. Smallville went even further and said that Jor-El had come to earth before as part of some Krytonian coming of age ceremony or rite of passage and had met the Kents when they were younger.

I see you are of the opinion that upbringing is everything, they covered that in Red Son. I'm not really big on the whole indoctrination thing.

[Shadow Skill]

I am not saying let them destroy the entire surface the Earth as they fight, but come on, when Superman fights another being with equal powers, it's like a 2 second fight, he gets hits, wobbles around for a second, gathers up all his thoughts, then lays waste to the bad guy. Seriously, 2 beings with equal powers, with the ability to not feel pain or be hurt aside from kryptonite. Why add the human touch to it? Take 2 normal men, we fight, we take many punches to the face. Take 2 Kryptonians, their strength, muscle and healing/regenerative abilities are equal. So it would be like a man vs man fight. Infact, the way I see it, Superman if he got punched by Zod, with his stronger muscle and no force can move him like he is cemented in the ground, should end up as a fight like 2 normal people fighting. 2 equal forces... We will never see a proper action fight scene of Superman vs a bad guy.

It's never an actual real fight of action...

They want to humanize Superman and just make him an an evolved human with emo persona instead, then so be it.

[Shadow Skill]

Crap lag mad eit post twice, since I clicked twice before it refreshed lol. Sorry for double post, lol

[Sapphire]

They want to humanize Superman and just make him an an evolved human with emo persona instead, then so be it.

For the record, grown-up superman doesn't look emo in the trailer at all, he looks really rather zen. I don't know anything, though.