Movie: Man of Steel

[Munsu]

Man of Steel

Director: Zack Snyder
Writers: David S. Goyer & Christopher Nolan

Cast of note:

Henry Cavill - Superman
Amy Adams - Lois Lane
Michael Shannon - General Zod
Russell Crowe - Jor-El
Diane Lane - Martha Kent
Kevin Costner - Jonathan Kent
Christopher Meloni - Colonel Hardy
Laurence Fishburne - Perry White
Tahmoh Penikett - Emerson

Do we have a winner here? I wonder about Fishburne as Perry White, but can't wait to see Michael Shannon as Zod.

[Abdula]

Forget everything else DC does, this is the only movie I am looking forward to. Personally I loved Superman Returns and I do not know what all the flak that movie got was about but Man of Steel should be awesome. Just as long as there is not too much Clark Kent/internal conflict nonsense that completely detracts from as opposed to enhancing the Superman character.

As for Fishburne as Perry White. I think that can only be a +, because somewhere along the way the Perry White character from DC and the J Jonah Jameson character from Marvel became the same person.

They better put the Clique's version of Superman in this movie

[Munsu]

I enjoyed Superman Returns myself, so we'll see how this one goes. But seems to me to be moving in the right direction from the information at hand.

[Y]

Superman Returns gets the essence of Superman completely, hilariously wrong. If your version of Superman is a deadbeat dad, you've fucked everything up.

Snyder is a pretty interesting choice for this: is this going to be some kind of ironic deconstruction of Superman like Watchmen or Sucker Punch?

[Munsu]

This "deadbeat dad" stuff is completely overblown, oversimplified, and sustained by baseless assumptions. Have always felt like a weak reason to not like this particularly movie, but I understand most complaints against it otherwise. Still I enjoyed the movie.

But yeah, agree about Snyder. I also wonder how much control he'll have over the story considering Goyer's and Nolan's involvement.

[Y]

How so? It just fits with the joyless, empty tone of the movie. Superman very literally got Lois pregnant and abandoned her on a quest to go check out his blown up home planet, a quest literally handwaved away in an opening text crawl. The script wanted to separate Superman and Lois, probably because the creative team felt Lois and Clark are too "cliched" or "old fashioned" or some horseshit. It just fits with how pervasively WRONG the whole movie is - Superman's son casually, accidentally murders someone defending Lois, or winking, joyless nods at the conventions of the medium like the child immediately understanding Superman is Clark.

[Munsu]

How so? It just fits with the joyless, empty tone of the movie. Superman very literally got Lois pregnant and abandoned her on a quest to go check out his blown up home planet, a quest literally handwaved away in an opening text crawl.

He was unaware of Lois being pregnant. How does that make him a deadbeat dad for leaving on said quest? Seriously, is this your basis for calling Superman a deadbeat dad? You're stretching it quite a bit.

And then I ask, are all the dads that are soldiers and fight on wars for whatever cause deadbeat dads? Seems like that's the reasoning you're applying here.

The script wanted to separate Superman and Lois, probably because the creative team felt Lois and Clark are too "cliched" or "old fashioned" or some horseshit. It just fits with how pervasively WRONG the whole movie is - Superman's son casually, accidentally murders someone defending Lois, or winking, joyless nods at the conventions of the medium like the child immediately understanding Superman is Clark.

All fine and good, but nothing to do with the "deadbeat" accusation.

[Animeniax]

Umm, how would Lois handle having a superbaby inside her any better than Bella would handle having a vampire baby inside her? I haven't seen the movie btw.

Also, who's costume is that in the background to the right?

hrlicensingexpo20125.jpg

[Munsu]

I was wondering the same thing, seems like a female out fit. Maybe someone from Krypton or someone with General Zod; maybe Ursa or Faora (who's been confirmed to appear in the movie played by Antje Traue).

Here's the supposed costume of Jor-El and a Hi-Res of the one you're asking about:

[Y]

He was unaware of Lois being pregnant. How does that make him a deadbeat dad for leaving on said quest? Seriously, is this your basis for calling Superman a deadbeat dad? You're stretching it quite a bit.

And then I ask, are all the dads that are soldiers and fight on wars for whatever cause deadbeat dads? Seems like that's the reasoning you're applying here.

First off, was this stated? How can Superman not know that having a bunch of unprotected sex with Lois Lane is going to get her pregnant? He isn't a sheltered highschooler. Plus he can see atoms, I don't think he'd fail to notice a pregnancy. I just assumes his tour in space took WAY longer than he intended. In any case, Superman abandoned Lois for nebulous and poorly fleshed out reasons (handled largely in a TEXT CRAWL at the start of the movie) and combined with his Super-Stalking later in the movie just comes off as a creepy asshole.

[Animeniax]

I think he could hear the sperm pierce the egg when he laid his super-sperm inside her. Shit, his ejaculation should have caused internal hemorrhaging for Lois.

But plot holes aside, maybe the birds and the bees work differently on Krypton, or maybe his adoptive Aunt and Uncle never taught him about sex ed. He was raised in a rural setting where they have conservative values and don't believe in sex ed in schools, only prayer.

[Y]

I briefly tried to work it into the film's Christ metaphor - like maybe the five year gap symbolizes Jesus's death and resurrection and the movie depicts the second coming? But then I remembered it does the death and resurrection again later so that can't be it. Fuck Superman Returns.

[Abdula]

Come on now. I choose to believe that the movie was good for what it was. A Lois and Clark movie, damn that stupid show for forever ruining Superman. It would have been much better if the plot didn't revolve around that stupid kid and Lois' utterly boring love interest, not really because there was no plot beyond that but you take what you can get. By the way if you want to talk about bad parenting, who the hell brings their kid to check out Lex Luthor's ship?

Man of Steel just has to focus on Superman and it should be fine.

[Munsu]

First off, was this stated?

Didn't have to be. It was quite clear that he didn't know Lois had a child, let alone that it was his until later on in the movie.

How can Superman not know that having a bunch of unprotected sex with Lois Lane is going to get her pregnant? He isn't a sheltered highschooler.

So, now he's having lots of unprotected sex. See what I mean about assumptions? Couldn't it have been just a couple of times, or maybe just the once? Also, should everyone that has had unprotected sex be under the assumption that everyone has been impregnated? Of course not. No one knows until the news comes. There are ton of people that try for some time to get pregnant you know, and unsuccessfully until it happens.

Plus he can see atoms, I don't think he'd fail to notice a pregnancy.

How much time passed since Lois became pregnant and until he decided to go on his journey? Secondly, he doesn't walk around seeing atoms. That's foolish.

I just assumes his tour in space took WAY longer than he intended. In any case, Superman abandoned Lois for nebulous and poorly fleshed out reasons (handled largely in a TEXT CRAWL at the start of the movie) and combined with his Super-Stalking later in the movie just comes off as a creepy asshole.

Completely irrelevant to the accusation. And "abandoned Lois", once again, irrelevant. They're unmarried grown-ups, they can do whatever the fuck they want, particularly when pregnancy wasn't even in the cards at the moment from all that I and logic can tell.

[Y]

You're way too invested in this. I should have known it was some kind of serious issue for you when you brought up a whole raft of insulting objections to my feelings about a movie. You're bitching about the hypothetical number of times he slept with Lois when the whole dynamic of Lois and Clark's relationship in the movie is the feelings of abandonment and detachment Lois had to get over to enter into her current relationship. She wrote an article called "Why the world doesn't need Superman" not because natural disasters and supervillains stopped attacking but to get over her own issues about it, which is just fucking awful. Superman is a shit in this film. For the record, the action sequences are stilted and lifeless and the movie is like a demake of Superman I with any kind of hopeful or inspirational elements excised, which is odd since it depicts Superman-as-Messiah as well. Maybe a reflection of the irreligious nature of the modern monomyth? Too much credit to this film.

[Munsu]

You're way too invested in this. I should have known it was some kind of serious issue for you when you brought up a whole raft of insulting objections to my feelings about a movie. You're bitching about the hypothetical number of times he slept with Lois when the whole dynamic of Lois and Clark's relationship in the movie is the feelings of abandonment and detachment Lois had to get over to enter into her current relationship. She wrote an article called "Why the world doesn't need Superman" not because natural disasters and supervillains stopped attacking but to get over her own issues about it, which is just fucking awful. Superman is a shit in this film. For the record, the action sequences are stilted and lifeless and the movie is like a demake of Superman I with any kind of hopeful or inspirational elements excised, which is odd since it depicts Superman-as-Messiah as well. Maybe a reflection of the irreligious nature of the modern monomyth? Too much credit to this film.

I'm not way invested in this, I just don't care for your misconceptions about this particular issue. It's completely baseless. Of course Lois feels abandoned, she was in love with Superman and he was not around. She would have written the same piece whether she had a child with him or not. It's in the nature of her character. I'm not bitching about hypothetical number of times they slept together. You brought it up as the inconclusive evidence that Superman completely knew Lois had been pregnant when he left, and I'm just calling you on your BS and faulty logic.

And I said, I understand all the other complaints thrown against the film, and respect other's opinions on not liking it, which I'm fine with. I have the same complaints, but I enjoyed it nonetheless and that's about the extent I care to discuss the "was it a good movie or not" aspect of this. But I find the complaints about him being a "deadbeat dad" just complete crap which doesn't hold up with what was portrayed in the film.

[Y]

I'm not way invested in this

Yeah, you are.

EDIT:

"Saying Superman abandoned Lois is ridiculous, despite the fact that her whole character arc in the movie is getting over the fact that Superman abandoned her." Yeah, alright. I think I'm done here.

[Munsu]

Yeah, you are.

I'll keep it in mind next time I call someone on his flawed logic and baseless assumptions. It must be because I'm way too invested on said issue, and not because I simply care about having the facts straight regardless of what the issue may be.

Lesson learned.

Edit above: I don't know where you got that quote from, but it wasn't from this thread.

[Y]

Ok.

The "facts" of the matter are nebulous and undefined, and the "facts" of a fictional universe besides. The point is, beyond question, the film made Superman an absentee God, which handily misses the point of the Superman mythos. The film depicts a broken, dysfunctional dynamic between Superman and his people, with Clark as a shoddy disguise that a child literally sees through, a sad parody of humanity that he never got right when it mattered. Which one of these themes did I invent out of whole cloth exactly? This is such a mean, hopeless version of the Superman mythos that I find it offensive and dithering about the "facts" - which you made up by presenting possible alternate hypotheticals to an offhand comment, the substance of which does not diminish the thrust of said themes and you damn well know it - entirely pointless.

Did Superman know Lois was pregnant? He's a fictional construct, so the answer is undoubtedly no. The point is the awful, cynical nature of what Superman represents in this film, what his "human" frailties like spying on his ex-girlfriend do to the arc of his character, not how many times he stuck his cock in Lois.

Edit"

The earlier films knew that, and they cast Christopher Reeve, never a stunning actor but a likeable one; he bridged the alien remoteness and the need to be human—he tied the Clark Kent side to the superhero side, making them mirror each other. In this film, Brandon Routh drops the human side completely; he smiles sad, beatific smiles as he floats above us. His interactions with humans are without warmth. It might be that Routh is a cold actor, or that he and Singer decided to play up the remoteness.

It's as if the actors are going through the motions without a care for their characters' feelings, relationships, or situations. In particular, there's Kate Bosworth as Lois Lane, a character that seems so depressed, so clueless, and deflated that she makes Clark Kent look like an extrovert. A far cry from Margot Kidder's sarcastic, edgy, and fallible reporter who carried loads of sass and sureness, perfectly complementary to Reeve's upstanding and wholesome Superman, Bosworth sets a joyless tone.

These are the problems with the movie embodied by Superman abandoning Earth. Not that Superman abandoning his girlfriend, within the universe, is the central problem.

[Munsu]

Ok.

The "facts" of the matter are nebulous and undefined, and the "facts" of a fictional universe besides. The point is, beyond question, the film made Superman an absentee God, which handily misses the point of the Superman mythos. The film depicts a broken, dysfunctional dynamic between Superman and his people, with Clark as a shoddy disguise that a child literally sees through, a sad parody of humanity that he never got right when it mattered. Which one of these themes did I invent out of whole cloth exactly? This is such a mean, hopeless version of the Superman mythos that I find it offensive and dithering about the "facts" - which you made up by presenting possible alternate hypotheticals to an offhand comment, the substance of which does not diminish the thrust of said themes and you damn well know it - entirely pointless.

Did Superman know Lois was pregnant? He's a fictional construct, so the answer is undoubtedly no. The point is the awful, cynical nature of what Superman represents in this film, what his "human" frailties like spying on his ex-girlfriend do to the arc of his character, not how many times he stuck his cock in Lois.

I was merely commenting to your first post of this thread where in essence you put everything that was wrong with the film into Superman being a deadbeat dad, and I found that to be weak and unfounded. Your other elaborations I've had zero issues with, as you can tell since I haven't referred to them in any of my posts, that's your take on the movie and I agree with much of it.

The only problem I have had is how people have been arriving at the "deadbeat dad" conclusions. It just doesn't compute with me as there's nothing to suggest it. Nothing from what I've seen in the movie has led me to believe that Superman intentionally (as I feel intent is very important when accusing someone of being a deadbeat) left a pregnant Lois to fend for herself without him fulfilling his parental obligations, in the context of what he can manage by keeping them safe from his enemies.

I really don't care for the rest, I've just found it curious to see how people have arrived at calling Superman a deadbeat dad, since it's a tune that has propagated through the internet through the years, and I've always found it unsubstantiated, but never cared to argue it. So you came along here and claim the same, so decided to have a poke and see where people were coming from, but nothing you've said has convinced me that he's a deadbeat dad.

And that's pretty much the extent of my interest of this discussion.