Movie: Prometheus

[Y]

Doesn't that actually make sense? If it was a more informed person, he would come up with all sorts of theories and couldn't pick one without much more evidence. But an ordinary grunt will stick to his first idea and believe it's the absolute truth - unless a better alternative is crammed down his throat (literally in Alien's case).

This is a great bit of writing - a serious-minded military guy extrapolating his life experiences out into a framework to understand the world and believing in it with absolute certainty despite no real evidence, in a movie about the dichotomies of science and faith.

EDIT:

When people see this scene they often ask "How the hell does he know?" when he gives the explanation. He doesn't. He wants to know. Not coincidentally, this ties in with a lot of the themes of the movie.

[Animeniax]

Doesn't that actually make sense? If it was a more informed person, he would come up with all sorts of theories and couldn't pick one without much more evidence. But an ordinary grunt will stick to his first idea and believe it's the absolute truth - unless a better alternative is crammed down his throat (literally in Alien's case).

That does seem possible, so most likely I'm annoyed with the character's behavior and that sort of one-track mindedness more than anything. It just appears to be a very specific hypothesis and very much plausible, which didn't fit coming from a grunt. While I don't put 100% faith in the "specialists," it just seemed unlikely that a grunt would figure it out.

This is a great bit of writing - a serious-minded military guy extrapolating his life experiences out into a framework to understand the world and believing in it with absolute certainty despite no real evidence, in a movie about the dichotomies of science and faith.

What evidence is there that the ship captain was former military? Unless they mentioned that somewhere, the guy could be a merchant marine, a ship captain who just floats from location to location. It's just as likely it was poor writing and you're reading too much into it.

[Y]

What evidence is there that the ship captain was former military? Unless they mentioned that somewhere, the guy could be a merchant marine, a ship captain who just floats from location to location. It's just as likely it was poor writing and you're reading too much into it.

Thanks for this reply to my post.

[Animeniax]

Thanks for this reply to my post.

Thanks for dodging the question? I searched around, nothing anywhere about Janek being former military. On one site Scott is said to describe Janek as "an old sea dog" but that's hardly a reference to military experience. Like I said, it's just weak writing in a movie that focused too much on a grander scheme, meanwhile leaving out details that make the scheme worth caring about. This lapse in particular is just giving Janek something to do besides drive Ms. Vickers around.

EDIT:

When people see this scene they often ask "How the hell does he know?" when he gives the explanation. He doesn't. He wants to know. Not coincidentally, this ties in with a lot of the themes of the movie.

Again, I think you're giving too much credit here both to the writers and to the Janek character. He's a ship captain, paid to haul his cargo from point A to point B. You could argue he wouldn't accept the mission unless he actually cared about the purpose, but for pilots the travel is the purpose, not the scientific oddity they hope to find at point B. And remember the expedition cost over a trillion dollars, so he's paid quite well to take the mission, not because he "wants to know."

[Y]

Thanks for dodging the question? I searched around, nothing anywhere about Janek being former military. On one site Scott is said to describe Janek as "an old sea dog" but that's hardly a reference to military experience. Like I said, it's just weak writing in a movie that focused too much on a grander scheme, meanwhile leaving out details that make the scheme worth caring about. This lapse in particular is just giving Janek something to do besides drive Ms. Vickers around.

Again, I think you're giving too much credit here both to the writers and to the Janek character. He's a ship captain, paid to haul his cargo from point A to point B. You could argue he wouldn't accept the mission unless he actually cared about the purpose, but for pilots the travel is the purpose, not the scientific oddity they hope to find at point B. And remember the expedition cost over a trillion dollars, so he's paid quite well to take the mission, not because he "wants to know."

That's just like, your opinion, man.

[Animeniax]

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Indeed, but supported with facts and common sense. I'd rather the movie didn't have so many glaring plot holes and poor writing, but it does.

To make the Prometheus/Alien world even crazier, I was reading about the supposed connections between the engineers and Jesus Christ. Ridley Scott himself suggested/entertained the idea that JC was an engineer sent to the earth to help humanity during one of our times of crises and debauchery. When humans responded by crucifying him, that's when the engineers decided to exterminate all humanity with the black goo. Maybe Scott was kidding, but if not, how's that for some suggestive story telling?

[Y]

Indeed, but supported with facts and common sense. I'd rather the movie didn't have so many glaring plot holes and poor writing, but it does.

Yeah but, not really though.

[Buffalobiian]

Ani's idea is more supported due to the lack of evidence that the captain was ex-military.

The Jesus Christ thing is interesting.. but all depictions of Christ that we see are facially hairy, while the Engineers are anything but hairy. How are they going to pull that off? Someone gave him a wig?

[Animeniax]

Either Jesus is misrepresented in our annals (some suggest he'd most likely be black or middle-eastern brown yet he is depicted as white because of the European establishment that pushed Christianity on the world) or the engineers had the technology to make their representative appear more like the humans whom he was trying to save. They were advanced enough to have that ability.

I'm disappointed no one got my Driving Ms. Daisy reference.

[Y]

Ani's idea is more supported due to the lack of evidence that the captain was ex-military.

The evidence is, foremost, the fact that it's painfully obvious that Idris Elba's character was ex-military in everything he said, especially the scene in question if you do things like listen to the dialogue and understand human speech. If you need something dumb, like, oh I dunno, the actor saying the character had a military background, well that's the second fuckin' line of his Wikipedia entry, right after "He's the captain of the ship", so obviously anyone who said they "researched" the character and could find no evidence that he had a military background is just a craven liar who has no problem making shit up to support his views about movies and TV. Not calling out anyone in particular, of course.

EDIT:

Would the point I was making be any less accurate if I had described the captain as a "military-minded" guy instead of specifically saying that he came from a military background. Jesus Christ.

[Animeniax]

Wow, just when I thought we'd have a decent discussion, you lose the argument and go catty on me.

Did you edit that wiki entry yourself or are you really relying on a wiki entry as fact? Like I said, I searched and found no references to a military background for Janek. If being a ship captain means you're military, then welcome aboard the nuclear powered destroyer class Love Boat, Capt Stubing. Just so you know, plenty of idiots like to fancy themselves "military experts" when they're just cowboys with no skill and no training. Groups like Blackwater are full of these dumbies. Janek may fancy himself a military man, but he's a ship captain on a science vessel.

And to add to the dumbness that is Prometheus, recall that Fifield, a geologist, gets lost in the dome. The biologist he is with approaches the alien lifeform that emerges from the black goo and tries to pet it. How poor is the writing in this movie.

edit: following the reference on which the wiki "factoid" is based, lo and behold, the factoid is wrong.

Here's the article it references (and one I read during my previous research):
http://movies.inquirer.net/3843/%E2%...sion-collision

Janek, the captain of the Prometheus, is described by Scott as an “old sea dog” – an officer in the classic tradition, and an alpha male whose primary mission is to protect the ship and its crew. His ambitions and vocation provide a sharp contrast to the heady goals of Shaw and Holloway and the venal corporate interests of Vickers. Elba describes Janek as “a longshoreman and a sailor. It’s his life and the crew is his responsibility. Ultimately, he makes a huge decision that sums him up as a man.”

Surprise, surprise, no mention of military in the article, as described by Elba or the director. Thank you, wiki, for ruining the world.

[Y]

Wow, just when I thought we'd have a decent discussion, you lose the argument and go catty on me.

Did you edit that wiki entry yourself or are you really relying on a wiki entry as fact? Like I said, I searched and found no references to a military background for Janek. If the actor claims it, then it is the only such mention and is unsupported by anything the director says. If being a ship captain means you're military, then welcome aboard the nuclear powered destroyer class Love Boat, Capt Stubing. Just so you know, plenty of idiots like to fancy themselves "military experts" when they're just cowboys with no skill and no training. Groups like Blackwater are full of these dumbies. Janek may fancy himself a military man, but he's a ship captain on a science vessel.

And to add to the dumbness that is Prometheus, recall that Fifield, a geologist, gets lost in the dome. The biologist he is with approaches the alien lifeform that emerges from the black goo and tries to pet it. How poor is the writing in this movie.

edit: following the reference on which the wiki "factoid" is based, lo and behold, the factoid is wrong.

Here's the article it references (and one I read during my previous research):
http://movies.inquirer.net/3843/%E2%...sion-collision

Janek, the captain of the Prometheus, is described by Scott as an “old sea dog” – an officer in the classic tradition, and an alpha male whose primary mission is to protect the ship and its crew. His ambitions and vocation provide a sharp contrast to the heady goals of Shaw and Holloway and the venal corporate interests of Vickers. Elba describes Janek as “a longshoreman and a sailor. It’s his life and the crew is his responsibility. Ultimately, he makes a huge decision that sums him up as a man.”

Surprise, surprise, no mention of military in the article. Thank you, wiki, for ruining the world.

EDIT:

This is a really good post about the issue. Rereading this post really made me think about the issue. I like your style and I think you'll go far with analysis like this.

[Animeniax]

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Mreow!

You stake most of your argument on the wiki article that definitively says he's military, which I've shown is bs and you're a fool for relying on wiki to prove an argument. So now it's just that he seems military because of some of what he says. Nice backtracking.

[Ryllharu]

Don't be a moron, learn military slang.

"Sea dogs" are low rank military...or low ranking pirates. Either way, organizations aboard vessels that are run with a very strict, military hierarchy. Using the term “old sea dog” implies nothing but military, or a group run militarily.

[Kraco]

Even today you don't need to be career military to be able to think like one possessing such a mindset or skills, to a limited extent. You just need to have watched movies, tv series, read books, played games, read encyclopedias, sat thinking it all, and who knows what you will be able to do in the future, in virtual reality. What comes to the other people, I think I mentioned it before, but it's obvious they are shady dregs, all of them. None of them are from anywhere near the top of their field. Because decent or better scientists wouldn't have agreed to a possible suicide mission using experimental technology, with no briefings or data whatsoever available beforehand. Only people with nothing to lose would agree to this kind of a trip. So, it's useless to expect them to behave like your famous professors with hundreds of peer-reviewed publications.

[Y]

Don't be a moron, learn military slang.

"Sea dogs" are low rank military...or low ranking pirates. Either way, organizations aboard vessels that are run with a very strict, military hierarchy. Using the term “old sea dog” implies nothing but military, or a group run militarily.

Not to mention the source for the "military background" statement is obviously the Empire magazine article, just as the source for the direct quote was inquirer.net. This is probably obvious to anyone who doesn't have a vested interest in trolling up a storm and lying about Wikipedia links in order to score points in a discussion though and really goes without saying.

[Animeniax]

Don't be a moron, learn military slang.

"Sea dogs" are low rank military...or low ranking pirates. Either way, organizations aboard vessels that are run with a very strict, military hierarchy. Using the term “old sea dog” implies nothing but military, or a group run militarily.

Come on, sea dog refers to sailors, not military at all. Regardless, running a vessel with pseudo-military precision and hierarchy does not mean any of the crew are military or have the military knowledge to figure out the purpose of an alien planet.

Even today you don't need to be career military to be able to think like one possessing such a mindset or skills, to a limited extent. You just need to have watched movies, tv series, read books, played games, read encyclopedias, sat thinking it all, and who knows what you will be able to do in the future, in virtual reality. What comes to the other people, I think I mentioned it before, but it's obvious they are shady dregs, all of them. None of them are from anywhere near the top of their field. Because decent or better scientists wouldn't have agreed to a possible suicide mission using experimental technology, with no briefings or data whatsoever available beforehand. Only people with nothing to lose would agree to this kind of a trip. So, it's useless to expect them to behave like your famous professors with hundreds of peer-reviewed publications.

Good points about the kind of guys who would sign up for a mission like this. True, they wouldn't be the brightest scientists, but these guys were particularly dumb.

With your experience, did you discern the engineer's purpose on the planet? Or did you have to wait for Janek to explain it like the rest of us?

Not to mention the source for the "military background" statement is obviously the Empire magazine article, just as the source for the direct quote was inquirer.net. This is probably obvious to anyone who doesn't have a vested interest in trolling up a storm and lying about Wikipedia links in order to score points in a discussion though and really goes without saying.

When you lose, cry troll.

edit: found the Empire article, and yes Elba claims Janek has a military background. First and only suggestion of this. Congrats, Prometheus is still shittily written.

[Ryllharu]

Not sailors. SEAMEN. Military.

Big difference.

[Y]

That does seem possible, so most likely I'm annoyed with the character's behavior and that sort of one-track mindedness more than anything. It just appears to be a very specific hypothesis and very much plausible, which didn't fit coming from a grunt. While I don't put 100% faith in the "specialists," it just seemed unlikely that a grunt would figure it out.


What evidence is there that the ship captain was former military? Unless they mentioned that somewhere, the guy could be a merchant marine, a ship captain who just floats from location to location. It's just as likely it was poor writing and you're reading too much into it.

Wow it's really weird how Kraco and I are obviously proposing the same idea - that as a direct, practical thinker the captain of the ship would immediately guess at a military purpose for the installation and then present his theory as fact - but when Kraco posts it, you find it plausible and confess that your distate for the scene mainly lies in finding his personality and background suspect. When I post it, in a near-identical formulation, suddenly his behavior is just "poor writing" and I'm "reading too much into it" and you seize upon minutiae to falsely dispute - in the same post, no less! Maybe in the future instead of obviously posting your replies based on who you're replying to, you could make them in two consecutive posts to disguise your naked trolling and lack of interest in any sincere discussion, on such a pithy subject as a movie no less.

[Animeniax]

Not sailors. SEAMEN. Military.

Big difference.

Not true. Sea dog refers to any kind of sailor or person who spends a lot of time on a sea-faring vessel. Even Elba calls the character "a longshoreman, a sailor." There may be a specific use of the term "sea dog" in the military, but there's also a more common use to describe sailors.