It'd be confusing if you watched 12 without 11.5, with Oreki's sister showing up and everything. I think him and his sister's interaction is quite organic. With her tussling his hair and what not. Kinda odd that they don't show her face at all.
It'd be confusing if you watched 12 without 11.5, with Oreki's sister showing up and everything. I think him and his sister's interaction is quite organic. With her tussling his hair and what not. Kinda odd that they don't show her face at all.
I just watched episode 11.5, and it just made me hate the other 2 Hyouka members more. Calling Oreki boring and annoying is not the best way to cheer him (or anyone for that matter) up, especially if part of the cause of his depression lies with the people insulting him. If it weren't for Chitanda, things could have ended up worse.
I still want to know if any of the club members actually knew that Oreki was screwed over by the Empress. If I were in their shoes (Oreki's friend), I would get royally pissed at the Empress and get some retribution.
Chitanda scored some major points for me. It was almost like the other characters were used as a foil to make her shine and shrink the distance between her and Oreki.
Peace.
Nah, you are just biased. Ibara was hostile toward Oreki from the get-go, so there's no need at all why she would now try to soften her words. I'm more inclined to believe she said anything at all for Chitanda and Fukube's sake and because she feels some sort of rivalry between herself and Oreki and was now getting disappointed in Oreki falling down. Fukube on the other hand is a straight-forward guy who's not holding back much. Both were perfectly in character.
I am not saying they were not in character. I was saying that I hate their characters. So you are perfectly correct.
Peace.
I don't think Oreki spread the word around that he was screwed over by Irisu. After that little talk, he was totally in "I don't know why I even bothered to give a shit" mode.. and talking to others about it would have been a waste of energy.
He did reveal the truth about Hongou to Chitanda, but whether he left the whole "manipulated" part in is another question.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Who would want to straight-out confess they were successfully manipulated? Especially if they have a reputation of being intelligent (and little else)? Better just leave the others thinking he failed like any mortal man occasionally could rather than tell them he both failed and was a fool. He had his sprouting ego crushed well enough even without telling the rest of the club why exactly.
Making a mistake is different from being screwed over by someone. You don't normally assume that people are out to manipulate and use you (at least not to the extent the Empress did), so it would have been the perfect excuse for his failure. It is not really his lack of intelligence that got him fooled, but his inherent characteristic to be swayed by women, as explained by his tarot, the Strength.
Knowing Oreki though, he is not prideful or energetic enough to actually make excuses or redeem his reputation.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Tue, 07-10-2012 at 09:28 AM.
Peace.
Excuses don't make anybody look better, stronger, or wiser. Like the saying goes: There are only bad excuses. I suppose it could be a cultural thing as well and I wouldn't know the Japanese culture well enough to judge, but it's safe to say that deep down excuses only exist for the failed persons themselves. No matter if the audience believes it or not, it won't make the end result any different or better. Oreki doesn't strike me as the kind of superficial or desperate person who would try to explain things to himself by making excuses.
Excuses can be valid. The term itself sounds bad, but it is there because it is necessary and meaningful.
You know, like how you were late for work because the train was stopped, or how you could not go to work because your wife died. Maybe explanation would be a better term?
In the first place, when someone screws you over like that, excuse or not, you usually talk about it with your friends. Oreki is simply not the type of person who talks of his own accord, which is probably the reason he has not told anyone about the Empress' scheme.
I am not saying making excuses would suit him better. I just feel it is quite unfair that they have a mistaken view of Oreki's true abilities because they are not aware of all that transpired. It would be great if they found out about it some other way.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Tue, 07-10-2012 at 10:41 AM.
Peace.
No, excuses are always bad, because they are reasons for failing that are born ultimately from your own mistakes or shortcomings. Reasons and explanations are a different thing, like a wife dying. Train stopping is borderline because technically you'd need to take into account such a thing if you really were worried about getting to work - and in fact if it was a special day like an uber important meeting in the morning, you ought to take an earlier train. However, normally people don't need to do it because statistically they will be at work on time and always taking an earlier train would be waste of time in the long run, and few would enjoy that. But it could still be viewed as an excuse by a nazi boss...Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
I wouldn't have anything against the others finding out on their own. However, I'm satisfied with his lack of initiative to tell it by himself. Precisely because it would be an excuse and wouldn't change anything results wise. Ibara might even dislike him all the more if he said it. Fukube could go either way, but I doubt he would like to hear excuses after all the praise he has given Oreki. It's impossible to guess how Chitanda would react. While you said he's not prideful I actually think he has enough pride to carry his defeat on his own and not be all hollow by trying to shift the blame.
Explanation it is then. It is pointless to argue about semantics anyway.
Well, Oreki is not eloquent enough to give an explanation smoothly without it sounding pathetic, so you are right that it may be better that he doesn't do it.
I don't think he was defeated at all. He was a victim. Victims don't compete with the offender/perpatrator. Feeling ashamed because someone wronged you is absurd. It would be different if Oreki knew that he was going into a battle of wits from the get go, but he was basically lured into a trap.
Peace.
There's no end to detective stories where the real culprit is actually the one who called the cops or who seemed to be helping the cops the most - only in order to lead the investigation from the shadows in a way that suits him/her. Let's not forget that the Classics club was originally called to save the movie by figuring out Hongou's incomplete script. So, to be specific, already at that point a more suspicious man could have thought where the movie abruptly ended wasn't according to the original script. After that the situation only got worse for Oreki. He was guilty of forgetting half of the case by only finishing the script and not honestly figuring out Hongou's intentions. That was his own fault, plain and simple, under manipulation or not.
You seem to be proposing that Oreki should have suspected that the Empress was lying from the start. Given the circumstances, it is unbelievable to expect that of anyone. This wasn't a crime scene. It was a student club made movie. No one would have their guard up like you suggest.
I am not denying Oreki was careless in that he forgot a lot of things, like the rope. All I am saying is that he was not able to show his true ability due to the Empress' influence, and it would be unfair for him to be judged when people (his fellow club members) are not even aware of that.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Tue, 07-10-2012 at 05:56 PM.
Peace.
Not necessarily from the start, but when he put down the pen tip to the paper to write the script he should have taken Irisu's words with a grain of salt as well, just like everything else he had heard (like the theories from the other film club members). The other Classics members still have no idea Oreki (possibly) failed due to falling to the Empress' machinations, yet they all realised the result wasn't what Hongou had in mind. So, nobody can say Oreki didn't have enough facts in his hand, had he been able to stay objective.
You are correct about this not being a crime scene and in the end the movie was absolutely more interesting this way than how Hongou would have liked it to be, but these are separate things from Oreki's image as a detective (or at least a puzzle solver) prodigy that he had just started to believe in himself. Besides, I feel there's some discrepancy between how disappointed the others really were and how bad Oreki simply felt himself, regardless of the others. Even if they appeared condescending or whatnot, they didn't even gang up on him or anything of that sort, and immediately afterwards they have been doing their best to either cheer him up or make him forget the whole thing (the pool ep).
I agree that his fellow club members had no ill intentions when they approached him. It is the way they did it that I dislike. I do understand that they are such people from the start of the story, so this was inevitable.
Now that you mention it, it seems like the other club members don't really care much about his failure. Now I am wondering if this an issue of direction. The scene where they confronted him may be too expressive when it came to facial animation and voice acting, that it made it seem much more serious than it actually was.
Since this is based on a light novel, those factors may exist in the anime only. Maybe they were not as condescending as they seemed, which would fit more with the rest of how the story played out. If you take out the detailed expressions and voice changes (particularly how desperate and pathetic Oreki looked and how his friends looked at him in disappointment), the content of the conversation itself is not that big of a deal.
Peace.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Not such an interesting episode. Among the few good scenes the best were Oreki studying Chitanda's photos and the subsequent scene of Chitanda realising he had been looking at them. I hope something will come out of the items stolen here and there. Sounds like something custom-made for Oreki to solve, which might be the truth even literally. Although who did it is another question. The wheel of fortune card stolen first made me think somebody simply wanted to gain some extra luck in an event, but with the other stuff taken, I'm not so sure, unless that somebody wanted extra luck in the go game.
I grinned stupidly this episode - both at the photoshoot and at the opportunistic manga society president.
Chitanda... damn she's wife-and-mother material. Let's see how her cooking turns out.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
She is probably the type that can easily learn it even if she is not good to at it yet.
Peace.
I haven't seen enough to be able comment, but I can say that if she has even the slightest talent she would learn diligently since she doesn't like to waste food.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
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