Hyouka

[fireheart]

I'm mostly with Shinta on this one. Though it's kinda unclear what happened in between seeing as both Satoshi and Ibara knew he was working on it after they rejected all those theories. I can't really see Oreki not telling them his conclusion if they asked about it then again I can't really imagine them not asking what his conclusion was either unless they didn't want to call him just for that.

In short my problem with their attitude can be summed up in:
- Solve this for us Oreki, we don't care that you're not interested
- You solved it, let's see... the ending was interesting and surprising. But you're wrong that's not the real ending
It just doesn't feel warranted to me.

While I'm at it another reason I didn't like their attitude when they told him the flaws in his theory is simply, they haven't ever shown to care about what Oreki wants nor his opinion despite all the things they force him to take on.

But I did love the scene with Oreki and Chitanda at the end because it made it seem like things were somewhat strained between the two and it looked like Chitanda understood that she's a big part of the reason since she forces these issues on him. I guess it's also interesting how she didn't want Hongou to end up in the same position as her uncle being unable to scream yet she inadvertently got Oreki into a similar position instead. Though that's just how I viewed that scene, it made me feel quite sorry for him. I'm going to be disappointed if everything goes on like normal considering how much they tore him down.

As for the Empress I'd say some fault lies with Oreki, he was after all informed of Irisu's ability to turn the people around her into her pawns and that's why she got the nickname Empress. Had he remembered it then there probably would have been less of a chance for her to trick him. But really the biggest reason for not liking her would be the line at the end that the reason she did all of it was because she found the story to be boring. So it seems she did it for a personal reason and nothing else. Oreki got torn apart just for that, because she thought the story was boring.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, a boring film is a shitty film, and if we say she has an eye for that sort of stuff since she's head of the club, then it could be viewed as a fair call. She saw a boring film as one that would fail, and the votes showed that having no deaths wasn't a popular idea either.

[shinta|hikari]

That does not make it okay to screw other people.

[Kraco]

In short my problem with their attitude can be summed up in:
- Solve this for us Oreki, we don't care that you're not interested
- You solved it, let's see... the ending was interesting and surprising. But you're wrong that's not the real ending
It just doesn't feel warranted to me.

It's a matter of perspective. Their original goal was to figure out what the ending was supposed to be like from Hongou's pen. Somewhere along the line Oreki practically forgot that and wrote his own ending. He pretty much admitted that himself after he was reminded of all the facts he had either forgotten or hadn't thought of at all. There's no doubt the film benefitted from this, because with the miserable wooden acting a narrative device was far more likely to succeed than anything depending on the actors. That the rest were less involved only supported their dim view of the result: unlike Oreki, they weren't a part of film making but solving the Hongou mystery. So, after seeing the movie, they realised nothing was solved.

Oreki only cared about energy saving, so trying to understand his wants and needs is useless (since only leaving him alone and in peace would theoretically satisfy that). It's a service to him to sometimes kick him around to make him do something with his talents.

[shinta|hikari]

Another thing that bugs me about how it all unfolded is the fact that Oreki is technically a victim, yet none of the others who were disappointed in him knew that. Had he not been manipulated and given wrong information, he would have solved it. That means that the current evaluation of his friends, which seems to have degraded due to this incident, is inaccurate.

While his friends knew that he was easily fooled by women, to the extent that they gave him the tarot title of "Strength" and regularly commented on how he was affected by the Empress, they did not know how he was used in this case.

One can argue that being easily controlled is a weakness, and it is, but that is not his fault. Victim blaming is just stupid.

Did Oreki only reveal the truth to Chitanda? Did he explain how he was used by the Empress? Does he even give a fuck about redeeming his image to the other two anymore?

The fact that he figured out the Empress' plan and the motives of all those involved is an amazing feat, something that he should be definitely proud of. Sadly, his comment when the Empress told him that her praises were not from the heart indicates that all these events had the opposite effect.

[fireheart]

Well, a boring film is a shitty film, and if we say she has an eye for that sort of stuff since she's head of the club, then it could be viewed as a fair call. She saw a boring film as one that would fail, and the votes showed that having no deaths wasn't a popular idea either.

What Shinta said also they've stated several times that no one would really object to whatever Hongou wrote. This is all Irusu personally objecting to her script for her personal reasons and then screwing Oreki over for said reasons. There's nothing in this but her personal gratification.

It's a matter of perspective. Their original goal was to figure out what the ending was supposed to be like from Hongou's pen. Somewhere along the line Oreki practically forgot that and wrote his own ending. He pretty much admitted that himself after he was reminded of all the facts he had either forgotten or hadn't thought of at all.

Oreki only cared about energy saving, so trying to understand his wants and needs is useless (since only leaving him alone and in peace would theoretically satisfy that). It's a service to him to sometimes kick him around to make him do something with his talents.

I understand the reason why they might be pissed I just don't think it's warranted when they from the very start had no plans to solve the mystery and was going to rely on Oreki to solve it. Satoshi is probably the easiest example as he says himself a database can't draw conclusions thus he relies completely on Oreki to draw conclusions.
The point is simply if you force something on someone else to do and don't like the results then you don't have the right to be all pissed off in their face especially when you weren't going to do it yourself. Hence they could have broken the news to him in a different way.

I still don't like it, if we got shown that they relented every once in awhile I wouldn't have any problem with it but they don't. If he tries to walk away Chitanda more or less tackles him to the ground and the others encourages Chitanda to do it. When he loudly argues that he doesn't want to do it they throw in that it's not like him to waste so much energy arguing something. Friends relent every now and then and accepts that they don't want to, we haven't seen them do this at all. It's about giving and taking and I don't see Oreki getting anything in return for everything he's given. I wouldn't say they're friends rather the rest of the Classics Club looks more like energy thieves.

What they did was not a service but a huge disservice considering how at least Satoshi tried to make him realize that he's got a talent, Oreki is most likely a far better person than me because after that I wouldn't want to solve anything for those kind of people and let them solve it instead if they know so badly.

[Buffalobiian]

What Shinta said also they've stated several times that no one would really object to whatever Hongou wrote.

I'll have to go back to remind myself where they've said it "several times" since I can't remember, but if you remember then that's cool.

A film that the production crew is happy to make doesn't mean the film will be well received. That's what I was getting at.

[fireheart]

I'll have to go back to remind myself where they've said it "several times" since I can't remember, but if you remember then that's cool.

A film that the production crew is happy to make doesn't mean the film will be well received. That's what I was getting at.

Well I'll admit I got caught up in the moment when I wrote several time but it was mentioned at least once, I think they also mentioned that no one blamed her for the unfinished script either which to me kinda goes hand in hand with them accepting whatever script Hongou wrote. Either way I stand by what I wrote, whether it was mentioned once or a dozen times doesn't really change anything.

Anyway also saw the scene after the first screening again where Oreki asks if she intends for them to finish the script to which she straight up lies and says no.

Whether the movie was well received or not doesn't matter, the problem is that she screwed Oreki over despite the fact that it's possible to achieve the same results without screwing him over. The rest was mostly finding more faults with her making what she did worse.



Also in the conversation after the screening she states that the reason she wanted the Classics Club in the first place was because she heard about Hyokka which means the rest of the club should realize that she only wanted Oreki. So everyone was clearly on the same page that without Oreki the whole thing wouldn't proceed shown by how everyone did everything they could to convince him. I think everyone understood that they were only invited in order to get Oreki to participate.

[Buffalobiian]

Well I'll admit I got caught up in the moment when I wrote several time but it was mentioned at least once, I think they also mentioned that no one blamed her for the unfinished script either which to me kinda goes hand in hand with them accepting whatever script Hongou wrote.

The crew didn't blame Hongou for not finishing the script, that is true.

I couldn't figure out what happened with the script initially though. Did Irisu see the script first, thought it was boring, then changed the script which the Film Club members actually saw and enacted? Or did the film club members themselves just decide to change the events themselves?

In any case, even though the film club doesn't blame Hongou for not finishing the script, the partial script that they were happy with was either changed by themselves or Irisu. Neither of those two things indicate that the club overall would have liked Hongou's original script.

Whether the movie was well received or not doesn't matter

Yes it does, because you originally said:

What Shinta said also they've stated several times that no one would really object to whatever Hongou wrote.
This is all Irusu personally objecting to her script for her personal reasons and then screwing Oreki over for said reasons. There's nothing in this but her personal gratification.

A film that the production crew is happy to make doesn't mean the film will be well received. That's what I was getting at.

Irisu intervened because she thought the script was boring, that the resultant film would be boring, and that students at the Culture Festival watching it would also perceive it as boring - thereby making it a failure of a film.


Hence her last line in the chatroom before it ended this episode.

I was going after how "personal" her decision was, not really about how "okay" it is to screw someone over for it. I also explained earlier about how trying to hire Oreki as a script writer wouldn't have necessarily motivated him to work like he did, so the results would not have necessarily been the same if she had treated them all differently.

[fireheart]

Like I said it's mostly the screwing Oreki over and the rest is just finding more faults in her, like adding more oil to the fire.

Frankly I don't think anyone other than Irisu knew that no one was suppose to die in this movie, the rest probably just thought that Kaito died and went with it trying to make it as dramatic as possible. If the script went with "Kaito found collapsed in a locked room, arm cut and blood and the key on the floor." they wouldn't really know how Hongou planned it and did their own take on it and that's how I viewed the changes. So I think the crew just assumed he died because of the vote not because they had any complaints about her script. Also didn't the Classics Club read through the script but didn't find any inconsistency until Oreki realized it never said that Kaito died?

As for Irisus line at the end, given her reaction before that it seemed more like she was trying to justify her actions, seeking recognition that she did the right thing. So to me she still did it for a personal reason, not because she couldn't allow it to fail as that's merely an excuse though it probably have an ounce of truth in it at least. But maybe the light novels shed more light on this whole thing.

[Kraco]

I still don't like it, if we got shown that they relented every once in awhile I wouldn't have any problem with it but they don't. If he tries to walk away Chitanda more or less tackles him to the ground and the others encourages Chitanda to do it. When he loudly argues that he doesn't want to do it they throw in that it's not like him to waste so much energy arguing something. Friends relent every now and then and accepts that they don't want to, we haven't seen them do this at all. It's about giving and taking and I don't see Oreki getting anything in return for everything he's given. I wouldn't say they're friends rather the rest of the Classics Club looks more like energy thieves.

If the situation was half as bad as you suggest, Oreki would have left the club already, whether his sister accepted or not. In reality, however, even the energy saver would get lonely and to some degree he might have even enjoyed the fact the rest were impressed by his problem solving skills. Besides, since nothing indicates he's gay, I'm sure he's not bothered by Chitanda's presence and "curiosity attacks" in particular. Still, up until now it was all fun and games. I hope he won't become too grumpy after this case, although at the same time I hope the next arc won't make them behave as if this incident never happened.

[fireheart]

If the situation was half as bad as you suggest, Oreki would have left the club already, whether his sister accepted or not. In reality, however, even the energy saver would get lonely and to some degree he might have even enjoyed the fact the rest were impressed by his problem solving skills. Besides, since nothing indicates he's gay, I'm sure he's not bothered by Chitanda's presence and "curiosity attacks" in particular. Still, up until now it was all fun and games. I hope he won't become too grumpy after this case, although at the same time I hope the next arc won't make them behave as if this incident never happened.

Again I got caught up in everything but I'd say it goes pretty much that way whenever Chitanda is curious about something and that's pretty much what the show is about so we don't see if they accept his opinion that he doesn't want to do something in other matters. The only time so far she held back was at the end of the episode which was also the part I liked the most.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 11.5, 12

[shinta|hikari]

What is the 11.5? A recap?

[Buffalobiian]

It's an OVA that was web-streamed. It's not a recap, but actually fits in between 11 and 12. The BDs will have a better raw. It does contain character development(ish) and Beach Queen Chitanda.

I wasn't really listening to the ED2 song when it played, but the animation was pretty cute.

[shinta|hikari]

So they just completely forgot about the whole Empress incident?

[Buffalobiian]

So they just completely forgot about the whole Empress incident?

No, 11.5 addresses that. I tried not to be specific.

[shinta|hikari]

Something to look forward to, then.

[Kraco]

Yeah, that episode 11.5 should definitely be watched between 11 and 12. I actually think it increased the overall believability a lot that it was such a bikini episode. Oreki was all depressed, and they basically had to solve that in a single episode. I'd say that being able to look at Chitanda in a bikini played a great part in setting his mind right and returning some life into him.

In episide 12 he's pretty much what he was before the whole film arc, so without 11.5 it would really be like they just ignored the whole thing. How he suddenly discerned his own role in the grand marketing scheme was as clear a sign as any that he's back to his old self. And Chitanda never noticed a thing.

Not bad episodes, as far as this show goes.

[KrayZ33]

Haha, great episodes

sure smiled and laughed quite a lot. and Chitanda looked great there.