Hyouka

[KrayZ33]

to be honest, Oreki's attempt to solve this mystery has been really weak imho.


first they mention how on a ...what did they call it... "psychological viewpoint" the culprit won't go somewhere where he might be seen (window entrance rejected) and now he is all like "the viewer won't care, the twist is so amazing"


not to mention that he missed out on the rope completely even though they discussed it with one of the other "detectives" just before he started working on the case.
and he is still missing a few key-points imho, what about Houngo(?)'s notebook and its symbols, I believe they have to mean something (especially since it pretty much proves that she read most of the books)... but it didn't feel right from the beginning

that "slow speaking" girl is especially fishy imho...
she's the one who found the map, she's the one who knows where the keys are and giving suggestiongs about how the master key should be kept safe (maybe to imply that everyone could have grabbed it and killed him?)
and Houngo wished her "luck"

and whats the motive?

[Kraco]

This is consistent with Oreki's past performance. During the titular case he also didn't predict everything, although back then he suspected it himself. I think this was also psychologically sound, including forgetting the rope. He isn't trained to solve criminal cases (or rather, mysteries), which was also evident in the fact he processed it all only inside his head, instead of using the laptop or a physical board or whatever to make sure he's not missing anything. Maybe the critical factor here is that he was praised too much and got careless. He's talented enough to process information and think out of the box, but he will still fall victim to human errors.

But then again, let's not forget this is a movie and not a real case. Ultimately it's the original author's fault to not finish it. If another person does, it will become that other person's story instead, and there's nothing wrong about it anymore at that point, details included or forgotten. You just have to accept that. The bad acting certainly didn't help and only supported Oreki's version. To be cynical, Ibara made the mistake of not allowing Oreki is get past this whole thing.

[KrayZ33]

on a side note, maybe I just played into the author's (Hyouka) hand..

now that I think about it, everyone had extremely high expectations for Oreki (including me)... even though he hasn't done anything "that" great so far, he even says so himself, everytime someone mentioned it.
And now, just as he is about to believe what everyone told him, it seems like he is about to fail.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 11


-------------------------------------------








Wow. That's Empress for you. She actually seems a lot like me if I was ever put in a position like that.

Those messages finally make sense now too (the ones at the beginning of episode 08 and the ones at the end of this one). They were confusing largely because I didn't realise that the person typing was Irisu, and also that the person she talked to will change over at times.

[animus]

I guess Irisu was typing to Hongou and Oreki's sister right?

Anyways, did we establish anything about the Empress? Did she really just reject her script and didn't want to hurt her feelings? I guess she did when she typed in response "I was in a position to not let the movie fail."

[KrayZ33]

I felt really sorry for Oreki, everyone had such high hopes for him to solve the mystery and he couldn't match their expectations at first.

They encouraged him to help and for the first time he began thinking about it seriously and really tried to help and it ended in a (for him and his friends that is) wrong way.
then after realizing that he was just being used under a false pretext, he must have felt even worse

[Kraco]

Irisu was quite a manipulator. He praised Oreki sufficiently so that he would completely fail to doubt her or the setting she had created. But then again, she even looks like a completely cold and merciless person and didn't bat an eyelash when Oreki accused her of only thinking of the end result and nothing else, so I doubt she gives a shit about how this might have affected Oreki. She showed some concern when chatting with his sister, but I reckon that was faked as well and only due to the fact she respects her personally and would desire respect in return. A valuable lesson for Oreki, in any case. When solving future mysteries, he will also count in factors like this, no matter how much it hurt this time.

[Buffalobiian]

I guess Irisu was typing to Hongou and Oreki's sister right?

Anyways, did we establish anything about the Empress? Did she really just reject her script and didn't want to hurt her feelings? I guess she did when she typed in response "I was in a position to not let the movie fail."

In episode eight, Irisu texted to Hongou, chatted with a Senpai (Oreki's sister? Last we heard she was in India? Or Ukraine?), then chatted with Chitanda "L".

This episode as you sa, she talked with Hongou, then Oreki's sister.

While I do feel sorry for Oreki this time (it'll make it quite hard for him to believe he can really make a difference again), I sympathise with the Empress more after the final scene. Like a true empress, she has to keep her little empire from failing - and if it requires her to step on people, so be it. People expect her to do her job, but she gets bad press for it.

[Kraco]

While I do feel sorry for Oreki this time (it'll make it quite hard for him to believe he can really make a difference again), I sympathise with the Empress more after the final scene. Like a true empress, she has to keep her little empire from failing - and if it requires her to step on people, so be it. People expect her to do her job, but she gets bad press for it.

Is that what you tell yourself (since you reckoned you'd be like her in a similar position)? This all was more due to her personality than the needs of the job. Why exactly did she calculate Oreki would create a better plot this way rather than after having sufficiently details not to feel betrayed and used after it all? Besides, this way is no way to use people in an organization, unless it really is an empire and you are a despot. You figure Oreki would ever want to deal with her again (he even seems to lazy for a revenge)? She knew well she's using him as a disposable tool. It was all the worse with the manipulation, even if it was necessary to get the energy saver moving at all.

Still, that seems to be her personality, just like Oreki's is energy saving plus problem solving and Chitanda's is curiosity.

[shinta|hikari]

I got really pissed with how his friends behaved. They selfishly held expectations, then selfishly reacted in such a way that they knew would hurt Oreki. Oreki never wanted to be considered special (even if he is), but they made him out to be, then when their expectations are not met, they all act as if he let them down.

While I am not a fan of the manipulative bitch, I am more disgusted at the other characters right now. I particularly disliked how they tried to be sensitive and approached him one by one with disappointment written all over their face (a testament to the amazing art in this show). One can argue that it is because they are friends that they are honest with him, but honesty can be expressed much better. They don't have to speak and look like they are blaming and patronizing him for making a mistake.

The "If you really think so, then I can tolerate it" parts of the dialog made me want to punch each of them in the face. The only thing that hurts more than criticism is pity.

[Kraco]

Nah, your view is far too one-sided. Orehi himself readily rejected all the theories by the filming crew. Then he went forward, without consulting the other Classics club members overly much (especially afterwards, before presenting it to the filming crew), with finishing the script. It got made into the film before the others had a chance to say anything about it. I think they were indeed justified in being disappointed with it; they had been under the impression Oreki tried to complete Hongou's text, but it was immediately clear to them he didn't but wrote his own. It's true they had unreasonably high expectations, but Oreki equally got unreasonably far ahead of himself after the praise by Irisu.

[Buffalobiian]

Is that what you tell yourself (since you reckoned you'd be like her in a similar position)? This all was more due to her personality than the needs of the job. Why exactly did she calculate Oreki would create a better plot this way rather than after having sufficiently details not to feel betrayed and used after it all? Besides, this way is no way to use people in an organization, unless it really is an empire and you are a despot. You figure Oreki would ever want to deal with her again (he even seems to lazy for a revenge)? She knew well she's using him as a disposable tool. It was all the worse with the manipulation, even if it was necessary to get the energy saver moving at all.

Still, that seems to be her personality, just like Oreki's is energy saving plus problem solving and Chitanda's is curiosity.

It wouldn't work to tell Oreki everything because the whole thing about Hongou being sick was a lie anyway. He needed to keep the story consistent and make it so the Film Club was in a bind, instead of hiring a writer because that would be viewed as being incompetent.

As for whether I'd act like her, it depends on how important the project is (how much more I value the result vs people having fun and a good relationship), how well I get along with the rest of the group (value of said relationship) and how desparate I am for the results (affects which methods and how much time I have to try various methods in order to achieve the result I need).

A club to me is pretty trivial, but if I was managing a company with "real" consequences, my approach could very well be different, and similar to what she pulled here.

[Kraco]

A club to me is pretty trivial, but if I was managing a company with "real" consequences, my approach could very well be different, and similar to what she pulled here.

In a company people are paid for their work (or rather, the results), so technically they only need to know the essentials. That's natural, even if in practice they oft get more details one way or another. So, she wouldn't need to "pull" anything in a company (or in fact any place where hired or contracted people work for money). So, contrary to that, what makes this so nasty is that Oreki worked for no compensation under a guileful pretext carefully crafted by Irisu. In the end all he got were those disappointed looks from his peers, like Shinta mentioned, and his own personal disappoinment from failing the job (as far as he's concerned, even if the film was a success). The fact he was fooled by Irisu was additional salt to the wounds. It doesn't make you feel much of a detective if the person praising you in fact was deceiving you successfully.

Aside from that, you said nothing that would make me believe Oreki wouldn't have been able to come up with a story even if he had known more. Nobody but Oreki would have needed to know she was hiring a writer.

[Buffalobiian]

Nobody but Oreki would have needed to know she was hiring a writer.

Ah, but words can spread.

To give an example, it's one thing to hire a shadow-writer to write your book for you. It's another to find someone to help you deduce what the original writer wanted before they "fell sick" or "died" etc. In on case you are asking someone to invent something for you because of your inability to do your job yourself, while in the second case you've found someone to help rediscover something that your writer had left you - and her leaving was an unfortunate incident that was outside if your control.

While everyone (at least in the two clubs) know Oreki helped out the Film Club and was cool with it, it's different to have a film by the club with a script "co-written by" Oreki the outsider.

If we compared this one again to the company thing, Oreki would be an outsider with no real attachment to the company in trouble. "help me figure out what my colleague was thinking" vs "help me finish this job".

[Kraco]

Ah, but words can spread.

That's an invalid argument. She used Oreki specifically because she deemed he has the wits to come up with a theory that would suit the film's needs, from the fabricated setting (the corpse that shouldn't have been there). So, the risk of Oreki finding out the truth was given and high - otherwise he wouldn't have had what it takes anyway. You'd think betrayed Oreki would be more likely to have a loose tongue.

It's true Irisu would have needed to choose her words carefully in order to avoid giving Oreki the ultimate hint that the corpse never was in Hongou's script. But even if she had lied a little to make sure he starts from the corpse and not before it, she could have told him the truth immediately afterwards, instead of letting him discover it the most hurting way possible.

Considering it was nothing but a club film, the price paid feels a bit too high, both for Oreki and Irisu herself.

[Buffalobiian]

So, the risk of Oreki finding out the truth was given and high - otherwise he wouldn't have had what it takes anyway.

I don't think that's the case, as highlighted by the fact that multiple people had to tell Oreki that the theory was wrong before he knew it. Irisu worded herself in such a way that Oreki got caught up in it.

Betrayed Oreki won't necessarily have any looser tongue than one who knew he was a scriptwriter from the start, since everything is settled now (filming and stuff), whereas a scriptwriter Oreki could begin to feel "used" as he writes the script - and may even give up half way leading to a stalled production.

Empress wanted the film done - and so managed to motivate Oreki by making him feel special and needed, rather than just a gun for hire (which could backfire). Then there's the other side of the story where she decided not to hurt her feelings and made up the whole lie about being sick.

At the end of the day though, the difference comes down to saying "I need help, only you can do this" vs "I have an assignment, can you do it for me?"

As for the price, I always had the impressions that clubs were a big thing in Japan - all the more if you were in a leadership position.

[Kraco]

I don't think that's the case, as highlighted by the fact that multiple people had to tell Oreki that the theory was wrong before he knew it. Irisu worded herself in such a way that Oreki got caught up in it.

Traditional murder mysteries and solving them are, in the end, people oriented actions. It's not like Irisu didn't know Oreki himself is surrounded by people who might help him.

But then again, perhaps I'm giving Irisu far too much credit. This could have been, realistically, the best way she could think of so it's useless to blame her for not doing things differently. If she had been able of more, it's likely she could have finished the script by herself as well. This was her limit, and people paid the price, not excluding herself. Next time she wouldn't make the same mistakes, just like Oreki wouldn't. A lesson for both of them.

[shinta|hikari]

@Kraco - I am not saying Oreki is blameless, but he did nothing that deserves that kind of treatment from his friends. Like you said, his friends didn't do much, so what gives them the right to be disappointed? They can disagree with Oreki and point out his errors, but being disappointed because they selfishly expected more from him is unfair. Like I said, I was particularly ticked off by their patronizing behavior. Had they criticized him in a different manner, I would not be irritated at all.

[Kraco]

At least officially they went to help the Film club as the Classics club, no as Oreki plus his expendable henchmen. Together they also analyzed the film and rejected the crew's theories. However, after that Oreki got individually contacted by Irisu, he alone wrote the ending to the story and it was filmed before the rest got their chance to voice their opinions. I know in a similar position I'd be somewhat pissed off I was present when the Film club's theories were rejected yet got no say in Oreki's theory - which the rest could have rejected as well just like we saw them doing afterwards. If you talk about their patronizing behavior, then Oreki's was arrogant.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm fine with Oreki being arrogant.