Beating Children/Spanking

[darkshadow]

I seriously couldn't listen to his how selfrightious(i'm not sure this is the word I'm looking for) he sounded...; he sounded just as bad as ppl that are completely pro hitting your kids.
"spanking has reliably shown to cause drops in IQ"; I guess my 147 must've been near 200 then....stfu..

[Sapphire]

"Self-righteous,' meaning he sounds too confident that beating children is wrong, therefore his argument should be disregarded?

He already addressed your anecdote of "I'm fine/smart therefore you're wrong because I was spanked" as a non-sequitor. He was using evidence from a scientific study to debunk that argument so I don't see why you seem grated.

[Killa-Eyez]

I think he meant he sounds "full of himself" being a sympethatic Mr. Goodie-2-shoes towards those who have (been) spanked. Gotta admit, the way he looks into that camera saying all that stuff with those big puppy eyes is quite nauseating.
Nevertheless, like drugs "spanking"=bad, mmmkay?

[Sapphire]

"He looks obnoxious" is a startlingly bad non-argument to avoid the issue.

[darkshadow]

Nobody is "avoiding the issue"; the way he sounded is just the wrong way to deliver a message like this. I dare go as far as to say he almost sounded religious with his view on the matter: "I'm an atheist, there is no god, you are wrong and I'm right; fuck you".
And no he didn't debunk any argument I made, cause I didn't make any; he's basically saying, hey yeah all of you that got spanked are now dumber people because of it and are only so so instead of being totally awesome....hey because you didn't accept JC as your lord and savior your life is now so so instead of awesome....

I'm sure you realise I'm exaggerating, but that's just the impression he left behind with that stupid smug face and voice of his .

Hmm, and here I told myself I would stay out of this discussion....so I guess this is my last post here ;D.

[Sapphire]

You seem really personally offended about the IQ thing.

[Animeniax]

Because it's barely correlated, definitely not causal. There are so many other factors to IQ (and IQ testing) that can't be controlled for when testing solely for corporal punishment -> lower IQ. It's specious reasoning in the guise of science.

[Sapphire]

I Googled "spanking" and "IQ" and read the first 10 websites.

Sure, let's disregard the data though.

[XanBcoo]

He already addressed your anecdote of "I'm fine/smart therefore you're wrong because I was spanked" as a non-sequitor. He was using evidence from a scientific study to debunk that argument so I don't see why you seem grated.

He actually didn't use scientific studies to refute that argument, just poor logic. A lot of that guy's arguments were really weak, and the way he talked made me want to hit him harder than Animeniax wants to hit his kids.

Regardless, whether low IQ scores and Corporal Punishment have a causal relationship or merely a correlative one, it's still in the kid's best interest not to use violence as a negative punishment strategy, as evidenced by 1 minute of researching the issue online and Y's articles posted earlier in the thread.

I'd also like to say that as weak as anecdotal evidence is, I see the effects of corporal punishment on a day to day basis, and as someone who is in the business of child behavior and management strategies, resorting to physical punishment is completely ineffective in the face of a mountain of other resources.

Hell, even if it were stacked against other negative punishments it still does a pretty terrible job. The evidence supporting its effectiveness is so inconclusive, and the evidence of its negative effects so numerous that it's silly to even consider it. It's a way to vent frustration, nothing more.

Edit to below: I was just on my way to correct that. Thank you. My ideas got jumbled.

[Buffalobiian]

The evidence against its effectiveness is so inconclusive,

Evidence for* its effectiveness?

[Animeniax]

I think they refer to that as a "Freudian slip". You mistakenly posted what you actually feel, instead of the PC message you're trying to espouse. Very very telling.

And no, I don't want to hit my kids. I will be the type of parent who wouldn't have to resort to it, since I will teach them discipline and respect in other ways, but would not rule out spankings to ensure compliance. If other parents can't teach their kids these lessons with non-physical methods, then I want them to spank their kids so I don't have to put up with their shit in public spaces.

[Dark Dragon]

I think corporal punishment does work to a certain extent, but not as much as many of you think it does.

If the kid realize that you are purposely not trying to hurt them and only intent is to give them pain to stop the behavior then it becomes useless altogether. In that situation the kid mindset would be "I'll get in trouble, but it's only a little bit pain and nothing worst than that".

I do think things like "time-out" are generally useless and modern parents are too soft on their children. There are many effective way to deter or encourage a behavior.

For example, i currently go and visit my niece and nephew once a week. My niece has a terrible habit of biting her fingernails, but i generally got her to stop it by associating not biting her fingernails with getting a treat every time i come over. Also if you're having trouble coming up with punishment, foods generally works really well. My nephew hates broccoli, so my brother would always make some when he does something bad. One of us would then stand over him and make him finish every bit of it before he can go do anything else. I believe the key is to make the punishment as unpleasant as possible, and that doesn't necessarily mean it has to hurt physically.

There are always exception to the rule though and there have been enough cases of criminals coming from perfectly functional family to prove that.

[Kraco]

Why does this argument always go back to beating children so much their IQ will drop or they will get used to spanking? The number of spankings should be so low that as a parent you'd remember every one. Otherwise it will indeed very quickly indicate nothing but failed parenting or a clinically sociopath kid. A kid at the spanking age is still 100% dependent on the family, and thus the act of spanking should be psychologically traumatic. It should definitely not be "it's only a little pain every time I steal an ice cream, no big deal". It should be not only the physical pain but also humiliation, uncertainty, and all manner of other negative feelings that will generate the fear and maintain it so that it never needs to be (ineffectively) repeated.

[Animeniax]

Kraco has it right. In the right child-rearing environment, spanking is not something resorted to easily or with regularity. I can think of maybe 3 times in my childhood where we did stuff bad enough to get spanked.

The studies you all are referencing are most likely referring to something closer to child abuse. Normal disciplining of your child through spanking won't hurt the IQ, unless maybe if you strike them in the head. I suppose it could hurt them emotionally/psychologically enough so they perform poorer on IQ tests, but that link is still dubious.

[Deadlift]

Kraco has it right. In the right child-rearing environment, spanking is not something resorted to easily or with regularity. I can think of maybe 3 times in my childhood where we did stuff bad enough to get spanked.

The studies you all are referencing are most likely referring to something closer to child abuse. Normal disciplining of your child through spanking won't hurt the IQ, unless maybe if you strike them in the head. I suppose it could hurt them emotionally/psychologically enough so they perform poorer on IQ tests, but that link is still dubious.

I also agree with kraco, I was spanked as a child, not beaten, the difference being the purpose, not fear or control, but respect. It`s like if you know someone who never swears, but the moment they do you take them a hell of a lot more seriously than your friend who tells you how F*cked his day is all the time. Just like spanking, if yourè hitting your kid on a daily basis you can`t seriously consider it discipline, it`s abuse. That being said if a parent were to spank a child only when necessary the message would be a lot different.

With regards to the IQ debate, IQ is a measure of intelligence quotient, Einstein had an almost average IQ, but it could be said he maximized that potential. To make a claim such as quote on quote data has been gathered to show emotional issues caused by abuse to be linked to intelligence is being indignant; consider some of the greatest minds regarded by society lived in a time when it was common place to beat not just spank your children. There are already accredited ways of gauging emotional potential (EQ) and it is far more logical to connect emotional abuse as a contributing factor within those fields, for this reason I seriously doubt any so called data from google, which are not legitimate beyond how many people have viewed them.

In the end agree beating children is wrong, I disagree that a spanking constitutes a beating, emotional abuse is not intrinsically tied to physical force and by claiming such a connection as an absolute it diminishes the complexity of the issue.

[Y]

I think they refer to that as a "Freudian slip". You mistakenly posted what you actually feel, instead of the PC message you're trying to espouse. Very very telling.

Don't post in this thread anymore you stupid son of a bitch.

[Animeniax]

Don't post in this thread anymore you stupid son of a bitch.

Suck it. Which is what you do anyway, so have fun.

[Sapphire]

I worked with a 4 year old today and I continued to be amazed at how fast he could pick things up, and then build upon his prior knowledge and apply it to other problems. (Like doing adding and subtracting in his head after working with blocks, then using that knowledge to manipulate dollar amounts). Not to mention his spacial reasoning is off the chain, and he learned how to read ridiculously quickly.

If one of us made some sort of mistake or blunder, he could immediately tell what the source of the blunder was, or what misunderstanding or slip of mind caused it. He's FOUR. I have worked closely with other very young minds and if you take the time to explain the logic of something, they certainly understand it. Young children aren't dogs that need to be programmed and conditioned through violence, like Ani stupidly thinks. And Ani, even if you were just trolling, I've lost all respect for you. Beating children to bend them to one's will isn't funny.

I want to teach that kid how to play chess.

It makes me sick that people take bright bundles of human potential and try to beat them into obedience. Just sick.

[David75]

Strip physical violence and that's exactly what modern societies are doing: forcing people into obedience.
But I admit this is quite off-topic.

[Animeniax]

Are you espousing Foucault?