Beating Children/Spanking

[Animeniax]

doesn't change the fact that they don't have to suffer pain from spanking to learn a lesson, lol

and since when does pain prevent children from doing the same thing some time later again?

Feel free to continue issuing timeouts and trying to reason with kids to do what you want them to do. Good luck with that.

[KrayZ33]

I've never recieved any form of physical pain when I was a child... so not really a problem I guess.
doesn't change the fact that its not the pain which gives them a lesson, but that they parents are seriously angry with them

if you spank someones else child it won't have the same effect as if you spank your own one, which loves you and cares about what you think of him/her

and if you do it too often, it won't have an effect at all
so pain = lesson learned, is just plain bs..

[Y]

Spanking a child is application of a basic truth about human physiology and behavioral learning.

What we have here in actuality is an application of the basic truth that your posts on any given subject are as wrong as they can possibly be. You should post about lottery numbers and see if anyone on here can devise a system that lets them win every time. Just a brief tour around the child psychology field pretty much routs your argument that this is just a "basic truth".

Source

... Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.

The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent. Gershoff believes that these two strongest associations model the complexity of the debate around corporal punishment...

Note the sad dithering by the author of the press release to qualify her findings.

Source

...There has been a large amount of research, much of it of high quality, showing that [corporal punishment] is a risk factor for many social and psychological problems...

... Without exception, these 20 studies revealed that CP was associated with an increased probability of mental health problems. Thirteen studies investigated delinquent behavior. It is widely believed that CP “teaches the child a lesson” and therefore reduces delinquency. Instead, in 12 of the 13 studies CP was found to be associated with a higher probability of delinquent and anti-social behavior. The same near unanimity (4 out of 5) was found for studies of the relation between experiencing CP as a child and later adult criminal behavior...

Emphasis mine in all cases.

The facts are unanimous in their rejection of your "basic truth" and "common sense" approach to child rearing, which I pray you have never employed in any real world scenarios. I would assemble an absolute juggernaut of a post attempting to get the studies mentioned off of a public portal and cite them individually if I had any suspicion that your posts in this thread are arguments in good faith. Considering your fucking dreadful post history it's more likely you are supporting corporal punishment because you have an unsustainable desire to pour shit over every thread posted on Gotwoot.

We should be glad you're into same sex so you don't procreate and we have another shitty undisciplined brat yelling in the movie theatre or running amok at the grocery store. Though you could always adopt I guess.

Just a note: Kagemane_no_Jutsu at least had a mild concussion to blame for his bigoted ramblings in the flame pit. I have absolutely no problems with you flaming the quality of my posts, but bringing the quality of my flaming into it, so to speak, is hilariously over the top even for you.

EDIT:

It's been a long time. I shouldn't have left you.

The current discussion includes how corporal punishment should be defined, how corporal punishment can be distinguished from physical abuse, and whether established associations with child behaviors are best thought of as parent- or child-driven effects. In light of their comments, Gershoff herein revises the process-context model, revisits the issue of whether current knowledge is sufficient to condemn the use of parental corporal punishment, and concludes that lack of demonstrated positive effects and the potential links to physical abuse argue for discouraging corporal punishment in favor of alternative methods of discipline.

... Second, in contrast to other discipline behaviors, there is a large body of high-quality and
well-controlled research showing adverse mental health effects of CP, including prospective
studies, This enables evaluation of this mode of discipline to be evidence-based.
Third, a focus on CP is necessitated by the public health principle that removing a risk
factor with a small effect size. but which is broadly prevalent (such as CP), can result in a
much larger reduction in illness rates than removing a risk factor such as physical abuse,
which has more damaging etfects on individuals, but occurs relatively rarely (Rose, 1985),
Fourth, is the cultural myth that CP is 'sometimes necessary'. This is based on the belief
that CP is effective when other methods have failed. We label this as a myth because research
shows that, although CP is effective in stopping misbehavior in the immediate situation,
these studies also show that it is not more effective than other modes of discipline, even
in the immediate situation.

A PowerPoint presentation of findings regarding sexual misbehaviors and corporal punishment.

I'm not even going to cite any particular passage from the last one. The title pretty much gives it away. Someone should teach this guy about spoiler rules. It's gripping reading if you (I use the general "you" here, as it does not apply to Animeniax) have any sincere interest in the subject.

I didn't use Wikipedia, Animeniax, I used Google and the certain knowledge that it would be effortless to find specific, numerous, professionally damning passages to smack you in the face. I have only a brief knowledge of the subject myself, having browsed SA threads on corporal punishment when LF was still active, and never having delved too deeply into the subject I cannot quote chapter and verse from publications about child psychology like you can. Oh, wait. You just pulled all your opinions from the same place your posts normally originate. You said that your ideas about child rearing are a "basic truth" of child psychology when virtually the entire field is arrayed against you. Even the dissonant studies that do not agree with my perspective are merely inconclusive instead of contradictory. But don't worry. I'm sure your real world, no-nonsense approach won't be deterred by things like mountains of real-world evidence or logical arguments that you barely even read in your rush to shitpost about absolutely everything.

[shinta|hikari]

It really depends on the child. For the most part, spanking is not necessary, but there are definitely crazy kids out there.

I practically raised my nephews and nieces when they were growing up, so I am speaking from experience.

[Kraco]

This discussion veered away from the fact (and it is a fact, not only applicable to children but adults and animals alike) that it's the fear of punishment of any kind, not only corporal, that has the effect, not the punishment itself. Like those dubious papers Y quoted said (and I'm sure the researchers behind them had the results ready and waiting before they even began the studies), physical or mental violence itself is risky. But no discipline will statistically result in lots of monster children like anybody who leaves his room and has at least a single working eye must know. Children are individuals though, and greatly affected by those around them, so where one kid will grow up just fine without any punishments (as opposed to KrayZ), another will turn bad.

To get back to the beginning, the method used must be able to generate that fear. In ye olde times when suspicious researchers weren't yet writing their papers, nobody thought twice about spanking as the first method of choice.

[Y]

It really depends on the child. For the most part, spanking is not necessary, but there are definitely crazy kids out there.

I practically raised my nephews and nieces when they were growing up, so I am speaking from experience.

I mean god damn. This is the company you keep. Think about that.

[shinta|hikari]

What do you mean?

[darkshadow]

He's talking about something nobody wants to revisit, so just ignore it ;]?

[Y]

He's talking about something nobody wants to revisit, so just ignore it ;]?

I am on fire today.

[Animeniax]

This discussion veered away from the fact (and it is a fact, not only applicable to children but adults and animals alike) that it's the fear of punishment of any kind, not only corporal, that has the effect, not the punishment itself. Like those dubious papers Y quoted said (and I'm sure the researchers behind them had the results ready and waiting before they even began the studies), physical or mental violence itself is risky. But no discipline will statistically result in lots of monster children like anybody who leaves his room and has at least a single working eye must know. Children are individuals though, and greatly affected by those around them, so where one kid will grow up just fine without any punishments (as opposed to KrayZ), another will turn bad.

To get back to the beginning, the method used must be able to generate that fear. In ye olde times when suspicious researchers weren't yet writing their papers, nobody thought twice about spanking as the first method of choice.

As you noted that's the problem with science, particularly social sciences. The experiments can be performed in a way to support the hypothesis, not just to test them. Y found notes from some studies supporting his point. I could just as easily find that many supporting the effectiveness of corporal punishment. Another issue is what is reported, how much is disclosed, and other factors not tested for.

And yes, the corporal punishment must come from someone whom the child has a positive relationship with, as the punishment essentially threatens that relationship, and that is what brings the child in line and corrects behavior. Paddling by the school principle will not have the same effect as paddling from your parent (assuming you have a healthy relationship with that parent).

[TwisT]

I'm against spanking/beating as a form of discipline. I can barely discipline a dog. I feel guilty as fuck when i get an outburst and lash the dog with the leash even though it wasn't really that hard and the thick fur probably absorbed everything. I believe that the most you should go too is to grab the childs shoulders, raise your voice and give him a firm shake, not talking about some aggressive shake that leaves neck injury as is reported every now and then, but a firm one that lets the child know it's serious business. It should get that shock effect that stops the child in his tracks, and then you can start talking to the child. And this is of course only for when the child is out of control and won't listen and just screams or/and runs around. And if this doesn't help, in my opinion it's the parents that has failed to begin with. Because if the child don't respond to even that he has been sugar coated to much that he is used to be able to do whatever he wants that he don't even take that serious.

You have to establish your dominance/authority from an early point in life so the child knows that when you raise your voice, playtime is over and it's time to start listen to the "authority". And this is doable without violence if done from early age. It only works if the child is raised to realize the severity of the situation when the parent raises the voice and/or grabbing the shoulders. I get the feeling these demon children you see have from the beginning never been disciplined. At least not from the start. I bet that when they threw their temper tantrums their parents just caved in and let them continue their bad behavior, or bribed/rewarded them with an ice cream to get them quiet. And then when they got older and they are really out of control nothing will work on them because they are the authority. All they need to do is scream and throw a temper tantrum. And if you finally start to stand up for yourself and not cave in they have learned that they are the boss of the house and will just step their game up by maybe even get violent. And violence might be the solution to establish the dominance/authority but does that sound right? Should the child suffer physical punishment just because the parent failed to begin with? If this is the solution then in my opinion the parent should go out to the street and get someone to physically punish them for their failure too. Because to me this is like you feeding your child crack for years and then suddenly you realize the error of your way and stop, and every time the child screams you "correct" it by giving it a spanking.

Also i find it that parents that feel the need to spank or beat their children or just thinks this is good and justified parenting usually use this type for everything. Not only when things go to far. Child slaps a sibling? Spanking time! Child breaks something? Spanking time! Child don't wanna go to sleep? Spanking time! As soon as the child don't do something that pleases the parent or don't do something the parent agrees on it's spanking time.

[Animeniax]

It worked for Ben Grimm.

[Kraco]

Also i find it that parents that feel the need to spank or beat their children or just thinks this is good and justified parenting usually use this type for everything. Not only when things go to far. Child slaps a sibling? Spanking time! Child breaks something? Spanking time! Child don't wanna go to sleep? Spanking time! As soon as the child don't do something that pleases the parent or don't do something the parent agrees on it's spanking time.

Those are failures of parents to begin with. When we are talking about corporal punishment in raising children, the basic setting should be parents who absolutely would not want to touch their children violently. Because decent parents love their children, and you don't want to hurt somebody you love. So, they do it against their feelings, for the sake of the child's manners and morals. Even if you argue morals out of fear of punishment are external morals, from the society's point of view it doesn't matter if it's inherent or slapped on. And indeed the primary goal of raising a child is to make sure the offspring has a decent chance in the society and will thus lead a wholesome life.

[Y]

As you noted that's the problem with science, particularly social sciences. The experiments can be performed in a way to support the hypothesis, not just to test them. Y found notes from some studies supporting his point. I could just as easily find that many supporting the effectiveness of corporal punishment.

Lazy, awful, and patently untrue.

[Animeniax]

Those are failures of parents to begin with. When we are talking about corporal punishment in raising children, the basic setting should be parents who absolutely would not want to touch their children violently. Because decent parents love their children, and you don't want to hurt somebody you love. So, they do it against their feelings, for the sake of the child's manners and morals. Even if you argue morals out of fear of punishment are external morals, from the society's point of view it doesn't matter if it's inherent or slapped on. And indeed the primary goal of raising a child is to make sure the offspring has a decent chance in the society and will thus lead a wholesome life.

See these are the same basic assumptions I work with. A good caring parent will still need to resort to spanking because in some cases it's the only way to teach the child. A bad parent will beat/abuse the child as the only form of parenting they have at their disposal.

[Killa-Eyez]

I've been spanked, lashed, and beaten. Not your typical "Demon child" but certainly a pain in the ass. In my case my parents didn't know any better as they were "spanked" (likely more severely) when they were disciplined. Throw in the fact they had me unwilling and unplanned.

Can't say if those beatings helped me or not, too far a long for my recollection. I do however hold strong moral just towards infants and believe every child is approachable in a non-violent manner. Some more difficult than the other but as a parent it's your task to find out which buttons to push.

Violence is simple, harsh and mentally effortless. It shows a disinterest for more plausible solutions. Then again, it's a violent world. If your child never had one "spanking".. You get the gist.

I personally do not believe in violence and wish it upon nobody. Sadly reality shows others have different views. So as long as there's violence I think it's a must to a least have some sort of experience in it, if only for survival purposes. Should it be given by the parent? I think not. There's lots of other healthy ways in which a child can be introduced with physical violence.

I probably sound Gandhi-like with my views but rest assured, I have done many violent things and will probably be subjected to more. I just don't think violence is ever a solution but just simply a vicious circle of hate. I obviously talk out of experience.

[UChessmaster]

I see nothing wrong with spanking your children when necessary.

[XanBcoo]

We should be glad you're into same sex so you don't procreate and we have another shitty undisciplined brat yelling in the movie theatre or running amok at the grocery store. Though you could always adopt I guess.

I work with shitty, undisciplined brats who are beaten by their parents on a day to day basis and everything you've said is dismissive, unsupported by even the weakest anecdotal evidence, and almost completely wrong.

Stop being a shit head. There is no definitive way to "discipline" a person and smacking the fuck out of a small child does not teach them to avoid any sort of behavior that they won't repeat again.

You did, however, touch on the more important point that it's far more important to establish a positive relationship with a child before any sort of discipline takes place.

[Animeniax]

I work with shitty, undisciplined brats who are beaten by their parents on a day to day basis and everything you've said is dismissive, unsupported by even the weakest anecdotal evidence, and almost completely wrong.

Stop being a shit head. There is no definitive way to "discipline" a person and smacking the fuck out of a small child does not teach them to avoid any sort of behavior that they won't repeat again.

You did, however, touch on the more important point that it's far more important to establish a positive relationship with a child before any sort of discipline takes place.

When did spanking become synonymous with "beating" and "smacking the fuck out of" your kid?

[Sapphire]

Hitting kids argument @ HERE