Chihayafuru

[Kraco]

Of course it's objectively speaking unfair to blame Yumi for something we have no proof of whatsoever that she did, which is why I admitted half of my accusations were groundless. That doesn't change her ill conduct, though, which is the basis for my dim view of her. In addition to her infamy. It all together led me to conclude she doesn't possess the spirit of sportsmanship. She only possesses a desire for the title of the Queen. That's nothing but greed if it's not accompanied by good conduct.

If memory serves, Chihaya used the disruptive cheering during the group play. That was team sport, despite all of them having an individual game. But in the end the team with three wins was victorious, regardless of the exact individuals who won those three games. So, the morale shout was every bit justified. Also, those games were held with the hall open for the audience, so a certain amount of noise was given anyway.

If Chihaya clearly tried to cheat I'd be quite amazed and also sad. She's not that kind of a person, so I'd blame poor script writing. If her opponent clearly tried to cheat - well, I think my past posts have made it evident how I'd feel.

[Ryllharu]

[This really long post]

I read this post last night when I was drunk. I couldn't quite make sense of it. So I waiting until the morning, after I had sobered up, and read it again. It appeared that the conclusion I came to while decidedly intoxicated was the correct one. The below sums up my thought quite succinctly.

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
- The Academic Decathlon host from Billy Madison. [link]

You're really going to have to clarify at least half of the things you wrote in your response to me for them to make any sense at all.

Just as an example, I have absolutely no idea what, "what Kana has taught us about karuta I think it's fair to say there's at least a logical connection..." has to do with Yumi's behavior/strategy and anything you or I have been discussing. But I gave it the benefit of the doubt and thought back over the course of these episodes. There's no reasonable connection between Kana's fixation on elegance and refinement (which for her extends far beyond karuta and more toward her family's business) and what we have be discussing. Shinobu is a perfect example of that. She acts like someone who simply does not care. She dresses herself in a way that only Chihaya thinks is "cute."

[fireheart]

Of course it's objectively speaking unfair to blame Yumi for something we have no proof of whatsoever that she did, which is why I admitted half of my accusations were groundless. That doesn't change her ill conduct, though, which is the basis for my dim view of her. In addition to her infamy.

Is the ill conduct her attitude when she contended cards or something else? I figured speaking up in Yumi's case is justified as long as she was right but if it's that attitude you're referring to then it's a different matter. As for the infamy I don't have anything since think it's open for interpretation which mean you could be fully right.

Just a question Chihaya's mental breakdown during the match, does that play any role in how you view Yumi?

You're really going to have to clarify at least half of the things you wrote in your response to me for them to make any sense at all.

Just as an example, I have absolutely no idea what, "what Kana has taught us about karuta I think it's fair to say there's at least a logical connection..." has to do with Yumi's behavior/strategy and anything you or I have been discussing. But I gave it the benefit of the doubt and thought back over the course of these episodes. There's no reasonable connection between Kana's fixation on elegance and refinement (which for her extends far beyond karuta and more toward her family's business) and what we have be discussing. Shinobu is a perfect example of that. She acts like someone who simply does not care. She dresses herself in a way that only Chihaya thinks is "cute."

I shall try and hopefully you'll try and answer the one question I've asked you twice already. Why would she feel guilty over contending for cards when we saw that the only two cards we've seen her contend for were rightfully hers? Again I don't understand why she should feel guilty about it other than holding up other peoples games, this is of course assuming she only does it when she's right.

Karuta as we know it through the show is based on poetry and as Kana said in episode 6 at 20:32-20:35 on the history of these poems "only members of the imperial court dabble in poetry" and that's what karuta has it's roots in. Is it ok if I draw the line imperial court = refined people? And this is a game based upon these people. Does that clear up how it has anything to do with Yumi dropping her usual playing style? It has nothing to do with her behavior or strategy as you say as it's nothing more than a theory on why it would be unfit for the queen to contend for cards and be so loud about it. But you are right Kana is fixated on elegance and refinement far beyond karuta as a game but that doesn't make the historical facts she mentioned are false. How much weight each player places on those roots will obviously be different some will care a little, some not at all and other will care greatly.

I'm not sure what else you want me to try and clear up so if there is more please do tell.

[shinta|hikari]

Pig boy said that Yumi is famous for confidently arguing about every close call. In such high level matches, there will be close calls that are really hard to determine even for the players themselves (like basketball fouls). Yumi argues for each of those instances, even if she is not certain she actually won the card. Heck, she might even argue even if she knows she did not win the card. Having examples of her arguing when she fairly won it does not refute the possibility (supported by pig boy's comment) that she just argues each and every time.

[Kraco]

Just a question Chihaya's mental breakdown during the match, does that play any role in how you view Yumi?

Only as a result of Yumi loudly contending the cards. The other troubles Chihaya was suffering are her own faults or a part of her own character. I have complained about them earlier. It's not just losing the cards (rightfully or wrongfully), but for most people, especially since they are Japanese people, rudely disturbing other people's games might be a mental shock. I do blame Yumi for that. If Chihaya, or anybody, becomes afraid every close call will bring about a noisy debate, it will prevent them from playing smoothly.

Dunno, I'm the kind of person who staid rock silent during lectures. I did have some friends who occasionally talked during them, and while I barely ever answered them, I still felt ashamed to be a part of the incident, even though I was only a person someone else talked to.

From justice's point of view there's certainly nothing wrong about contending cards rightfully, but you have to read the atmosphere and the situation. And like I said before, well in the middle of the game, both the players should equally lose cards like that, unless one of them is a cheater. If both are honest, it's nobody's loss, statistically. So, they could let it slide, in order to let other people enjoy their own games.

[fireheart]

Yumi argues for each of those instances, even if she is not certain she actually won the card. Heck, she might even argue even if she knows she did not win the card. Having examples of her arguing when she fairly won it does not refute the possibility (supported by pig boy's comment) that she just argues each and every time.

I'm not going to say it's incorrect but we don't know how true her infamy is. For example if she only contends every card she is 100% certain she won and does it with absolute confidence they're bound to remember her since everyones games get held up while she's doing it. But if there are close calls where she deems she wasn't first and doesn't start an argument then no one would notice because no ones game would get held up. If it happens several times it's far easier to just remember her as the person that does it in every close call. I don't think it's clear enough to see it in just one way which is why I said to kraco that it could very well be that way that her infamy is warranted. If we take Nishida's comment about what she's known for as proof then yes you are right, if we look into how that fame might have come about it's more uncertain since it's not impossible for it to have come about in the way I described.

It's not just losing the cards (rightfully or wrongfully), but for most people, especially since they are Japanese people, rudely disturbing other people's games might be a mental shock. I do blame Yumi for that. If Chihaya, or anybody, becomes afraid every close call will bring about a noisy debate, it will prevent them from playing smoothly.

From justice's point of view there's certainly nothing wrong about contending cards rightfully, but you have to read the atmosphere and the situation. And like I said before, well in the middle of the game, both the players should equally lose cards like that, unless one of them is a cheater. If both are honest, it's nobody's loss, statistically. So, they could let it slide, in order to let other people enjoy their own games.

That on the other hand is easier to understand and agreeable, I just think the justice part is more important though it is unfair for the other players so it's just a matter of which is more important, justice for the individual or the group.

[Ryllharu]

I shall try and hopefully you'll try and answer the one question I've asked you twice already. Why would she feel guilty over contending for cards when we saw that the only two cards we've seen her contend for were rightfully hers? Again I don't understand why she should feel guilty about it other than holding up other peoples games, this is of course assuming she only does it when she's right.

I fail to see why you believe I've dodged the question. As mentioned, she stopped the practice when she became Queen. Motivation for doing so aside (which I've also stated can only be speculation), whatever the reason, she must have felt it was wrong. She felt guilty about doing it. If she wasn't, she would never have stopped.

Shinta also answered it as well, and it deserves reiterating. Nishida didn't say she argues over cards she's won, she argues over EVERY contested card, and doesn't stop until she gets it. She argues with such confidence, that only the most self-assured opponent would continue the fight until an official would be forced to step in. While there isn't really that much doubt that she had a legitimate case against Chihaya, her karuta society is well aware that she argues in other circumstances where it is far murkier. Her "skill" is getting her opponent to concede the card, whether they had it or not. She makes her swipes for cards weakly, so these instances are far more common. That's why she is a far weaker player when she's not doing it.

There's little point in quibbling over possibilities. If Nishida says she argues every instance where a card is contested, then that's what she does, whether she actually touched the card first, or her opponent just brushed her fingers when they took the card first.

Karuta as we know it through the show is based on poetry and as Kana said in episode 6 at 20:32-20:35 on the history of these poems "only members of the imperial court dabble in poetry" and that's what karuta has it's roots in. Is it ok if I draw the line imperial court = refined people? And this is a game based upon these people. Does that clear up how it has anything to do with Yumi dropping her usual playing style? It has nothing to do with her behavior or strategy as you say as it's nothing more than a theory on why it would be unfit for the queen to contend for cards and be so loud about it. But you are right Kana is fixated on elegance and refinement far beyond karuta as a game but that doesn't make the historical facts she mentioned are false. How much weight each player places on those roots will obviously be different some will care a little, some not at all and other will care greatly.

Not at all. Competitive karuta just happens to be about poetry. It could be nursery rhymes, lines from Enka songs, or even pictures of farm animals, and it wouldn't change the game for the overwhelming majority of its practitioners. In fact, that is exactly the reality of the game in Japan. Characters in Chihayafuru play Uta-garuta. There's also mythological monster karuta, and a nursery rhyme one.

The basis of the Uta-garuta is a fundamental part of it for Kana, but that does not extend it to that level for anyone else that we are aware of. Kana is an admitted Imperial Court Era otaku. Certainly not the previous Queen. Or any title holder. Arata's grandfather appreciated the poems greatly, but he did not live his life that way. Does Shinobu care about them at all? She seems far more the type that is Queen simply because she's good at this particular game.

Kana has gotten a bit disgusted at competitive karuta. No one that high ranking listens to the poems, except perhaps Arata's grandfather. Yumi made zero mention of it, unlike many of the other powerful opponents we've seen. It's clear she views karuta as a practiced skill or talent as she lamented over only having the title for a single year while working so hard. That's why Kana, who still wants to be involved, has set her sights on becoming a distinguished reader rather than playing.

[fireheart]

I fail to see why you believe I've dodged the question. As mentioned, she stopped the practice when she became Queen. Motivation for doing so aside (which I've also stated can only be speculation), whatever the reason, she must have felt it was wrong. She felt guilty about doing it. If she wasn't, she would never have stopped.

Shinta also answered it as well, and it deserves reiterating. Nishida didn't say she argues over cards she's won, she argues over EVERY contested card, and doesn't stop until she gets it. She argues with such confidence, that only the most self-assured opponent would continue the fight until an official would be forced to step in. While there isn't really that much doubt that she had a legitimate case against Chihaya, her karuta society is well aware that she argues in other circumstances where it is far murkier. Her "skill" is getting her opponent to concede the card, whether they had it or not. She makes her swipes for cards weakly, so these instances are far more common. That's why she is a far weaker player when she's not doing it.

There's little point in quibbling over possibilities. If Nishida says she argues every instance where a card is contested, then that's what she does, whether she actually touched the card first, or her opponent just brushed her fingers when they took the card first.

In short you're saying she should feel guilty because she's more or less cheating? As for what shinta said I've already said all I could whether you accept that or not us up to you. But if you are saying she feels guilty for cheating and getting cards she shouldn't get and therefor stopped considering what Nishida said then I got no problems saying it's possible. As I said I don't mind saying it's possible as long as you make it clear why she should feel guilty. The reason I kept asking is because I couldn't really see it clearly in your post it felt ambiguous she should just fell guilty yet no reason why, hence why I felt you never answered the question.

Not at all. Competitive karuta just happens to be about poetry. It could be nursery rhymes, lines from Enka songs, or even pictures of farm animals, and it wouldn't change the game for the overwhelming majority of its practitioners. In fact, that is exactly the reality of the game in Japan. Characters in Chihayafuru play Uta-garuta. There's also mythological monster karuta, and a nursery rhyme one.

The basis of the Uta-garuta is a fundamental part of it for Kana, but that does not extend it to that level for anyone else that we are aware of. Kana is an admitted Imperial Court Era otaku. Certainly not the previous Queen. Or any title holder. Arata's grandfather appreciated the poems greatly, but he did not live his life that way. Does Shinobu care about them at all? She seems far more the type that is Queen simply because she's good at this particular game.

Kana has gotten a bit disgusted at competitive karuta. No one that high ranking listens to the poems, except perhaps Arata's grandfather. Yumi made zero mention of it, unlike many of the other powerful opponents we've seen. It's clear she views karuta as a practiced skill or talent as she lamented over only having the title for a single year while working so hard. That's why Kana, who still wants to be involved, has set her sights on becoming a distinguished reader rather than playing.

It doesn't really matter what Kana is that's not the point it's the facts that she shared that is important. Ok so there are several other forms of karuta but that doesn't change what I said that this form of karuta is based on poetry and that some (example Kana) will care greatly, some (Chihaya) will care to a certain extent and others (probably most players) will not care at all. Again the keywords in this is that it's got it's origins in something refined and some will care while other won't care at all. That's it, unless you're going to tell me that's wrong and nobody who plays the game cares. Now if competitive karuta was with farm animals or something else instead obvious this argument doesn't hold but it's not farm animals it's poetry.

We don't really know enough about Yumi to say it's either way and it's possible the reason why she stopped had nothing to do with any of these things. So in no way am I saying it has to be this way merely that it's a possibility even though I don't agree with your view it's not impossible either given the limited information.

[Buffalobiian]

Talking about Kana becoming a reader instead of a player, if she stops improving (or ceases to play altogether), doesn't that mean Chihaya's club will be effectively missing one person for team events?

You can have her there just to lose, but I doubt anybody feels good about doing that.

I doubt Arata is going in to fill the spot.

[Kraco]

Kana might not be able to become a "professional" reader so soon that it would matter to the club. High school is only so long, after all. The club would soon need new members anyway, regardless of Kana's choice.

[Kraco]

Episode 23 - HS





- - - - - -- -- -



Two eps left and I won't claim to be able to predict how this is going to end. Unless they do some serious skipping, it won't end with a master match with any of the main characters playing. But then again, that would be a pretty shounen way of ending it, and this is far from shounen. On the other hand, this is a sports anime heavily enough. With so much emphasis on the games, a high profile ending would be expected. Though to be honest, I'd rather see, as the final match, an official Chihaya vs Arata match, not a match against the current Queen or whoever is the King. Chihaya should even be able to maintain her focus better against Arata, because she would expect Arata to be good and give his all, plus Arata's play should be highly straight-forward and consistent. In a game like that Chihaya would fare the best with her wacky, easily shaken psyche.

A strange phone call at any rate. No wonder Arata was wtfing when it ended.

[Ryllharu]

A strange phone call at any rate. No wonder Arata was wtfing when it ended.

I expected nothing less from Beauty-in-Vain.

After the verbal reprimand she was given, I was a bit surprised that we didn't get to see Chihaya performing a dogeza to Yumi for not thanking her. I still think Yumi's society head is an asshole who should be barred from attending events for his outbursts.

As for Arata, I'll admit I was half-expecting him to transfer to their school or something silly (and very shoujoesque) like that. He's got no challengers left in his society. If he wants to get better (or back up to his prime), practicing against 9 year olds isn't going to help. Chihaya could probably beat him as it stands right now, and Taichi's superhuman memory would likely give him a challenge.

[shinta|hikari]

Well, we all (including the people in the show) know how much talent Arata has. Given about as much time or less as his retirement, he should be back to his level when he stopped.

[Kraco]

Chihaya could probably beat him as it stands right now...

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'd say it would be a very 50-50 match. Arata made it to the fourth round, for example, which was farther than Chihaya managed. Of course one could hypothesize (like she's doing herself) that she lost below her standards, but that's too soft thinking considering these people are close to the top. Nobody wants to listen to the thousand and one excuses of a sportsman. As much as I blamed and dislike Yumi, in the end she did beat Chihaya, and that's it.

Yeah, for a moment I also thought Arata would suddenly move back when they were talking about lack of suitable training opponents, but this hasn't really been that sort of a story. This is quite brutally realistic in many respects. I think they would need to come up with a reason other than simply karuta. Though I wouldn't mind at all if the reason was Chihaya herself, haha.

[MFauli]

Just finished watching ep 3. God, I really had some catching up to do with this season´s anime.

Liking it, though I really hope this isn´t one of those "shows you happy flashback, then one of the characters dies"-anime. It kinda has got that feel :/

Though, while I´m highly enjoying this show, I can´t help but feel that Karuta is an extremely lame game. As far as I understood it, the narrator reads the text that´s on one of the 100 cards, and you have to grab that card quicker than your opponent. Well, that sounds like a 100% child´s game. But this anime makes it appear to be on the same level as, let´s say, Go. Am I missing some important rule that creates more depth than what I just described?

Anyway, great characters, and I can´t wait for when Chihaya shows her sister that she´s got a nice dream herself and isn´t relying on her anymore.

Edit:

Watched ep 4. Well, fuck :/

[Buffalobiian]

I was really hoping that the Karuta club was going to hold their own Christmas party right after the lackluster class-based one.. but all we got was a call to Arata.. :S

[MFauli]

aaand episode 14 finished. I love the hand-animation, reminds me of the overexaggerated writing in Death Note. The Queen is also mightly cute <3

Still, this whole Karuto-game seems really lame. The anime makes it exciting, but when I imagine playing it myself, well, duh...

Edit: Oh, what I wanted to say: Arata is maybe the first "genius character" in a manga/anime that I don´t hate. Actually, I really like him. His complete lack of arrogance makes him a likable person.

[Buffalobiian]

Still, this whole Karuto-game seems

Karuta.. >_>

[MFauli]

Karuto, Karuta, Kabuto ... THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CUT OROCHIMARU OUT OF THE PLOT, Kishimoto!

back to topic, lol.

[MFauli]

Chihayafuru 24

Well, seems like Chihaya and Taichi have to activate their super saiyan mode soon, if they intend to keep up with these monster player. Love how this anime is surprisingly shounen-like, even though the artstyle (the eyes, mostly) remind me of shoujo-stuff.

My main gripe with this anime, however, are the non-existing power levels. One time, Chihaya dominates, next time she loses to a much worse player. And this whole Karuta-thing has to be rather small scale, when it´s seemingly so easy to reach the top. Though I figure that part of the problem was skipping Chihaya´s way up, skipping directly to her being in class B, then entering class A. It just feels like there´s not much room to go up, when Chihaya already had a match against the most powerful opponent.

But, of course, the anime is very entertaining, so that´s just some minor complaint.