Hunter x Hunter 2011

[Splash!]

Kite made so many sad mistakes during this arc that I can hardly consider him a powerful fighter. Well, I admit I'm more than likely wrong throwing randomly in Phantom Troupe since that group had members who are far better at being thieves than fighters, but that doesn't exclude all of them. They are villains so most likely they wouldn't get distracted during fights like the good guys always do (generating no end of textbook scenes of the opponent accusing the hero of getting worried about their friends, not their own fight). I'm happy Pitou went all out and didn't waste time lecturing. Kite deserved it.

The ONLY mistake Kite made was get a little cocky and bring Gon and Killua along. In hindsight, I feel even that will have its benefit in the long run. For one thing, Killua's assessment of Neferpitou should come in handy for Netero and his sidekicks. They should be able to make adequate preparations to fight opponents that may well be stronger than them.

Also, let us not pretend that the Phantom Troupe aren't prone to moments of carelessness and downright arrogance. Do you not remember what happened to Uvogin? He walked into a head on confrontation with Kurapika without fully comprehending his opponent and ended up dead. Sure they wisened up after that (even then their leader got snatched under their noses), but that doesn't mean Uvo was in any way less of a fighter than the others. He was just the first one to walk into an unexpected situation and be taken by the element of surprise, exactly like Kite. I am sure Kite's demise will cause the other hunters to smarten up but that does not mean they are much 'better' than him as fighters.

[Kraco]

Also, let us not pretend that the Phantom Troupe aren't prone to moments of carelessness and downright arrogance. Do you not remember what happened to Uvogin? He walked into a head on confrontation with Kurapika without fully comprehending his opponent and ended up dead. Sure they wisened up after that (even then their leader got snatched under their noses), but that doesn't mean Uvo was in any way less of a fighter than the others. He was just the first one to walk into an unexpected situation and be taken by the element of surprise, exactly like Kite. I am sure Kite's demise will cause the other hunters to smarten up but that does not mean they are much 'better' than him as fighters.

Uvo was much more of a genuine fighter than most of the others (not counting Hisoka, naturally, and maybe the swordsman). His fight with Kurapika was a perfect duel they agreed on earlier when they met. There's absolutely nothing wrong about a fighter dying in a duel. After all, out of two, one must die, and they had nothing else going on (Kurapika's was a mission of slaying Spiders or die trying). I'm sure Uvo died as a happy man in that sense, even if the fight might have been a bit unsatisfactory; he was in chains unable to do much for the latter half of it, after all. But that's what nen fights are like. It's vastly different from Kite vs Pitou, because that was a fight with no meaning for Kite. Kite's goal was to slay the Queen before the King was born, or, I'd guess, slay both the Queen and the first and only King if it had been born already. The rest of the ants could and should have waited, being sterile.

[Splash!]

Uvo was much more of a genuine fighter than most of the others (not counting Hisoka, naturally, and maybe the swordsman). His fight with Kurapika was a perfect duel they agreed on earlier when they met. There's absolutely nothing wrong about a fighter dying in a duel. After all, out of two, one must die, and they had nothing else going on (Kurapika's was a mission of slaying Spiders or die trying). I'm sure Uvo died as a happy man in that sense, even if the fight might have been a bit unsatisfactory; he was in chains unable to do much for the latter half of it, after all. But that's what nen fights are like. It's vastly different from Kite vs Pitou, because that was a fight with no meaning for Kite. Kite's goal was to slay the Queen before the King was born, or, I'd guess, slay both the Queen and the first and only King if it had been born already. The rest of the ants could and should have waited, being sterile.

You really are applying quite the double standard here. Is the purpose of the duel not to win it? Uvo failed at it, and made quite a few mistakes during the fight to lead him down that path. Further more, he walked squarely into a trap laid out by Kurapika due to his damaged pride of being caught by him in the first place. Kite set out to kill the queen but was stopped in his tracks by someone stronger than him that he had no way of predicting would show up. Even the omniscient audience is left confused by how someone as strong as Neferpitou was born in the first place, given that the queen hasn't really fed on a decent supply of nen users. Kite's mission had as much of a probability of failure as Uvo's duel with Kurapika. Both played the odds and failed, and somehow I am to believe that this demonstrates that Uvo is a better fighter than Kite?

Also, do you believe that Kite's death was somehow preventable if he had been alone? I don't think it would have turned out any differently. He still would have died at Pitou's hands since she was dead set on trying to kill him to test her strength. The only reason Gon and Killua escaped is because killing them would not have served that purpose.

[Kraco]

No. Do you know what a duel is? Kite vs Pitou wasn't a duel, it was just a regular fight that happened to happen because Pitou spotted Kite, and if we go down the path of guessing, Kite had no way of avoiding because he was burdened by Gon & Killua. Nor any way of winning because he lost his arm protecting Gon & Killua. Uvo didn't walk into a trap, he walked into a duel. And it was a perfectly honourable one, as far as any duel between different nen users can be. Of course only an idiot or other sort of person wanting die enters a duel without the will to win, but also nobody (sane) enters a duel without the understanding that death is also possible. Uvo even told Kurapika to kill him once it was clear he had lost (but hadn't died yet). That's what a real fighter is like. Kite fell long before he got anywhere near his real objective, totally uselessly.

I think Kite would have acted very differently had Gon & Killua been present. He would have even reached the nest before the roayl guard was born and Rammot would have never escaped, so there would have been practically nothing between him and the Queen. He might have opted to rely on stealth a lot more as well, leaving the soldier ants to the bigger reinforcements arriving later. After all, he didn't need to train himself or prove anything.

[Splash!]

No. Do you know what a duel is? Kite vs Pitou wasn't a duel, it was just a regular fight that happened to happen because Pitou spotted Kite, and if we go down the path of guessing, Kite had no way of avoiding because he was burdened by Gon & Killua. Nor any way of winning because he lost his arm protecting Gon & Killua. Uvo didn't walk into a trap, he walked into a duel. And it was a perfectly honourable one, as far as any duel between different nen users can be. Of course only an idiot or other sort of person wanting die enters a duel without the will to win, but also nobody (sane) enters a duel without the understanding that death is also possible. Uvo even told Kurapika to kill him once it was clear he had lost (but hadn't died yet). That's what a real fighter is like. Kite fell long before he got anywhere near his real objective, totally uselessly.

Kite fell because he was forced into a duel by a fighter a hell of alot stronger than Kurapika. A monster with the ability to detect enemies at a colossal range and cover a huge amount of distance in a single leap. How the hell is he supposed to even get close to the queen with a shitload of Ants crawling around and get away with it? You make it sound like he could just prance in there without getting detected, slit the queen's throat and just walk out without any problems. Also, Uvogin's fight was as much a trap as it was a duel. Uvo's 'mission' was to eliminate a threat to the spiders (in Kurapika). Failing to do so actually had huge repercussions because it forced the spiders to get sucked into a full on confrontation with the chain user, which resulted in the death of Pakunoda and Chrollo losing his powers.

[Kraco]

Hah. No. Did you read my post, even though you quoted it? Without Gon & Killua, Kite would have never got drawn into the fight with Pitou, because Pitou would have still been inside the fricking egg! That's because without Gon & Killua Kite wouldn't have had any need to tarry and loiter around. He wouldn't have been distracted from his mission to kill the Queen. Of course it's partially unfair to accuse him of that, but if we assume Kite was a nen master, then it's possible he could have, without Gon & Killua and with both arms, fooled a stupid ant away from the nest and either ambushed it or infiltrated the nest in the mean time. In any case, the situation would have been totally different.

It seems like our interpretations of the Spiders and Uvo are vastly different. Kurapika had done nothing to them at that point, only kidnapped Uvo. Uvo was out only for his own personal revenge and thus he agreed to the formal duel outside of the city. The rest of the Spiders were hardly interested, and they only helped Uvo to guess the places where he might find the chain user because they had nothing better to do and Uvo was a bother. You seem to have forgotten they let Uvo wander out there alone to seek out Kurapika and fight the duel. They only got annoyed when Uvo lost.

I have no idea why you can't understand the principle of a formal duel. Is it because Canada had no such thing? Even the USA had duels between gunslingers, but you guys possibly had nothing?

[Splash!]

Hah. No. Did you read my post, even though you quoted it? Without Gon & Killua, Kite would have never got drawn into the fight with Pitou, because Pitou would have still been inside the fricking egg! That's because without Gon & Killua Kite wouldn't have had any need to tarry and loiter around. He wouldn't have been distracted from his mission to kill the Queen. Of course it's partially unfair to accuse him of that, but if we assume Kite was a nen master, then it's possible he could have, without Gon & Killua and with both arms, fooled a stupid ant away from the nest and either ambushed it or infiltrated the nest in the mean time. In any case, the situation would have been totally different.

Seriously, talk about making massive assumptions and guesses and then accusing me of it. You are making a quantum leap by suggesting that Kite could have resolved this whole situation and dealt with the queen long before Pitou had hatched. It is a whole nest of chimera ants we are talking about. Wasn't it you who mentioned a few posts back that he should be extra cautious since he was dealing with the unknown. Why exactly would he rush into the middle of the nest without testing the waters first and figuring out how strong these ants really were? Also, I am assuming your comment about 'fooling a stupid ant away' refers to the queen. So, how exactly was he going to lure away an ant that believes the entire purpose of its existence is to give birth to the king away from its nest. Or maybe you are talking about Pitou, in which case its silly to assume Kite could have lured her away.

You keep bringing up the fact that Rammot got away. That would be a valid criticism if it somehow played a major role in his death. However, as things stand it has very little impact on anything. The ants would have discovered nen anyways due to Pitou's birth, so it was only a matter of time. I am sure that Kite could have dealt with Rammot level nen users if he wanted to, but the fact remains that he knew nothing of the situation that he was walking into. As such, I just don't see him rushing in head first and trying to assassinate the queen.

I have no idea why you can't understand the principle of a formal duel. Is it because Canada had no such thing? Even the USA had duels between gunslingers, but you guys possibly had nothing?

No need to act so condascending, buddy. I can understand full well what a duel is. However, since you seem so adamant on evaluating Kite's actions by the way in which things turned out (you have repeated this point a few times), it only seemed fair to apply the same standards to Uvo. So far as Kurapika is concerned, the ideal situation would have been for each of the Spiders to challenge him to individual duels so that he could systematically take them out one by one. His ultimate goal definitely wasn't to fight them with honour, but to take them all out. As such, engaging in a one on one duel with Kurapika was a stupid move on Uvo's part that played right into his hands. Do you really think Uvo would have still agreed to an honourable duel if he knew that Kurapika was hiding a spider insta-kill and that his intent was to destroy the rest of the troupe? It was about as stupid for Uvo to try to take on Kurapika alone due to his damaged pride of being caught as it was of Kite to take Gon and Killua along with him. If you really can't see that, I don't know how to make it any more clear.

Also, did you miss the part were Kurapika tricked Uvo into thinking he was a manipulator so that he could trap him using invisible chains. By your own line of reasoning, Uvo can't be that great of a fighter if he was utterly defeated by a noob who only recently learnt about nen.

[Kraco]

You are missing my point: Uvo had no other objective than to restore his pride by beating the chain user. Or die trying, since it was a formal duel. Both agreed to meet there and then, and they fought as honourably as nen users can considering they are like wizards who ought to keep a few aces up their sleeves and not go around touting their skills. Every nen user knows that, but still both Uvo and Kurapika agree on the duel. Whether that's smart or not... Well, for a real fighter and a warrior, like Uvo was before he was a thief, there's no shame in acting "stupidly" like that. He would hardly regain his pride by bringing all his comrades with him to ambush Kurapika, although another man, one without a pride, would have likely done that.

There's no argument you can make that would convince me Kite would have done everything similarly even if Gon & Killua hadn't been there. Because that would have meant Kite was no master. And I maintain he was a nen master after a fashion, just no fighter or a soldier. Naturally he would have rushed to the nest because that was the only bloody reason why he entered the country without waiting for the reinforcements. It's not like he wouldn't have known things only get worse for humans the more time the ants are given. But he was continuously delayed and distracted by having Gon & Killua with him.

And no, there's nothing at all the nenless grunts could have done to stop him, even if they had attacked all at once. We already saw that. This royal guard was the only thing that could stop him, so he should have hurried. They were only a single day late. He knew they must hurry (although he didn't know the details), yet they didn't.

[Buffalobiian]

They were only a single day late. He knew they must hurry (although he didn't know the details), yet they didn't.

I doubt Killua/Gon delayed Kite for a whole day. They took out the centipede and wasp-lady easily enough. Sure, Kite took his down quickly, but they didn't delay him that long. The fight against Lion's henchmen also lasted.. 30mins max? Rammot's fight was also short-lived.

I agree with Splash that Rammot's case didn't make things any worse for Kite, really.. but it does mean that the entire ant army now knows they can potentially have Nen powers (instead of believing that Pitou was just strong because of devoured-humans/royalty). Pitou perhaps learned some applications of his Nen as well before he started fighting for all we know.

They were only a single day late. He knew they must hurry (although he didn't know the details), yet they didn't.

Yeah, I was wondering why they weren't dashing full speed. I'm used to running-arms-dragging-behind-you-Naruto-style when someone says they need to rush. I'll chalk it up to not dashing into enemy territory/traps, since that's the best explanation. "They were sight-seeing" hardly cuts it.

[Kraco]

"They were sight-seeing" hardly cuts it.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I had a feeling Kite wanted to make Gon & Killua ready for facing and fighting the ants and took detours. It's possible if he had been alone he would snatched the first ant he saw and made it reveal the location of the nest, through force or guile. However, now they went here and there and stopped to fight meaningless grunts. Although I admit it's pretty hard to judge just how long their trip took. But we do know that the reinforcements were supposed to took a few days to arrive at some point, but they were already there when Killua got Gon out of the forest.

[shinta|hikari]

Kite did not know where the nest was. He followed the lion dude, IIRC. He mentioned something to that effect sometime.

I don't think taking the 2 boys delayed Kite enough to allow the birth of the cute Nef, but him losing his arm was definitely caused by protecting those two. Whether that disability caused his death as opposed to his survival will forever remain a mystery.

[Splash!]

You are missing my point: Uvo had no other objective than to restore his pride by beating the chain user. Or die trying, since it was a formal duel. Both agreed to meet there and then, and they fought as honourably as nen users can considering they are like wizards who ought to keep a few aces up their sleeves and not go around touting their skills. Every nen user knows that, but still both Uvo and Kurapika agree on the duel. Whether that's smart or not... Well, for a real fighter and a warrior, like Uvo was before he was a thief, there's no shame in acting "stupidly" like that. He would hardly regain his pride by bringing all his comrades with him to ambush Kurapika, although another man, one without a pride, would have likely done that.

I will end by point about Uvo by saying this: Getting dragged into a one-on-one confrontation with Kurapika (the guy who demonstrated the ability to restrain him without much effort) because of his damaged pride was not smart. As such, it shows that even the spiders are prone to things getting in the way of their better judgement. Even if Uvo was happy with his decision, it doesn't make it any better. Had he been more patient, things probably wouldn't have turned out so badly for both himself and the rest of his troupe. Also, if there is doubt as to whether or not he played right into Kurapika's hands and this was also a trap, I would refer you to Kurapika's speech at the end of the fight where he explains why he targeted Uvo and how he expected things to turn out. Uvo showing up all alone to challenge him to a duel was pretty much the ideal situation he could have hoped for and gave him the perfect avenue to test the assumptions about his powers as well as take out the strongest fighter type in the troupe. It has been stated several times that in a nen battle, information about your opponent can be everything. Clearly, Kurapika seemed to know more about Uvo than vice versa. Yet Uvo deliberately walked into an unfavorable situation all on his own. It was a mistake the Spiders sought not to repeat when they decided to travel in pairs when hunting down the chain user. Furthermore, they made collecting more information on the chain user their first priority.

And no, there's nothing at all the nenless grunts could have done to stop him, even if they had attacked all at once. We already saw that. This royal guard was the only thing that could stop him, so he should have hurried. They were only a single day late. He knew they must hurry (although he didn't know the details), yet they didn't.

Kite had no way of knowing that there was nothing that could get in his way, or that none of the royal guards had hatched. The only thing he did know was that they were capable of taking out a nen user like Pokkle at the very least. Going in gung-ho could have very well worked out coincidentally, but it would have been a reckless decision to make, given his limited understanding of the situation. I cannot fault him one bit for proceeding more cautiously (and consequently slowly). In order to figure out what was going on, there was nothing wrong with targeting ants that had strayed away from their nest and scouting at the perimeter of the nest using his long range En. This and locating the nest is what he spent most of his time on anyways.

I agree with Splash that Rammot's case didn't make things any worse for Kite, really.. but it does mean that the entire ant army now knows they can potentially have Nen powers (instead of believing that Pitou was just strong because of devoured-humans/royalty). Pitou perhaps learned some applications of his Nen as well before he started fighting for all we know.

This is still a bit hard to speculate about. It all depends on whether Pitou would have still decided to mind probe Pokkle. Peggy was investigating invisible bullets at the very least, and Zazan talked about special humans being different. Had Pitou still ended up getting the information from Pokkle, the situation with Rammot would have been largely inconsequential.

[Kraco]

I will end by point about Uvo by saying this: Getting dragged into a one-on-one confrontation with Kurapika (the guy who demonstrated the ability to restrain him without much effort) because of his damaged pride was not smart.

Previously Kurapika had restrained paralyzed Uvo and punched him in the face once when Uvo was chained to a table. So, he hadn't shown much in the way of amazing abilities. Besides, as much as I blame Kite for being careless, getting distracted, and losing sight of the real objective, I still think he was worlds above Uvo in intelligence... Uvo was, no matter how you look at it, a musclehead. Nevertheless, Uvo never lost his own way of living, till the end. Who knows how Kite should be judged in that sense (assuming he's really dead). If you look at Ging's actions and decisions, it's clear he never had any pity left for Gon's suffering or possible death, so it's questionable if Kite was doing right or wrong by going out of his way to look after him. He might have lost his way in that. But then again, he's Kite, not Ging, so he had to make his own decisions.

[Splash!]

Besides, as much as I blame Kite for being careless, getting distracted, and losing sight of the real objective, I still think he was worlds above Uvo in intelligence... Uvo was, no matter how you look at it, a musclehead. Nevertheless, Uvo never lost his own way of living, till the end.

That being said, Kite was in a lot tougher situation than Uvo to begin with. He used his head for the most part, but ran into something completely unprecedented. Also, we never got to see Kite reflect on his actions before his death so we don't really know if he actually believed his decisions were wrong. Gon and Killua might have gotten cocky but Kite seemed to remain on edge as he kept mentioning this gut feeling of things not being right in his inner monologue. Who knows, maybe he would have separated himself Gon and Killua sooner if had come across something stronger earlier. Based on the quality of enemies he had encountered so far, he could have very well thought that the kids could serve their purpose in the upcoming confrontation (against lots of ants) and have been of some value. If Gon and Killua could handle themselves against a certain caliber of enemies, it was not a given that they would be totally useless. In fact, even now, having Killua live to tell the tale might in itself be invaluable to Netero & Co.

There was no way for him to use the sample of ants he had observed to predict something like Neferpitou. There is just too large a discrepancy and he can only plan based on the intel that he has.

[Kraco]

There was no way for him to use the sample of ants he had observed to predict something like Neferpitou. There is just too large a discrepancy and he can only plan based on the intel that he has.

Yeah. But with so many unknowns, he should have really considered sending Gon & Killua packing. Especially when he started to get the bad vibes. His intentions were nothing but good and probably he considered himself to be playing a part in Ging's grand and inhuman game to turn Gon into another monster, but logically thinking you should only bring newbies, especially underage ones, on a mission where there are no unknowns to speak of and especially no bigger threat to risk unleashing (this was a mission to stop the ants, not to train Gon & Killua, after all). This mission had nothing but unknown factors.

[Splash!]

Yeah. But with so many unknowns, he should have really considered sending Gon & Killua packing. Especially when he started to get the bad vibes.

When he started getting those vibes, they were already too close to the nest. It wouldn't have been prudent to ask them to split, if he actually cared about them as friends. What if they were targeted by an ant that could kill them off but Kite would have been able to deal with. Again, there were unknowns but he was going through the process of collecting information which is about as much as he could hope to do. Who knew that the information he collected would be so misleading.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah. But with so many unknowns, he should have really considered sending Gon & Killua packing. Especially when he started to get the bad vibes.

You wanted him to base his decision on vibes? That would be hardly professional.

[Kraco]

You wanted him to base his decision on vibes? That would be hardly professional.

You have kicked professionalism out of the door the moment you decided to take two kids with you on a mission of utmost military importance and lethal danger. Besides, I'd say that in a a world of nen, vibes aren't necessarily such a dubious thing to count on if you are a nen master and experienced also otherwise.

[David75]

Life is unfair.
For Kite: Life's a bitch and then you die...
Move on everyone

[Buffalobiian]

Episode 86 is out!!




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Aaaaand, so much for not judging by aura, lol. Killua was entirely correct in his assessment. He is also insistent on being stylish wherever he goes. "Experts" and other pro-hunters also seem to agree with Kite's approach.

But more importantly, so much Bisky!!! :3