Yeah, you would think if he was going to change his fortune, he'd take out the part about him betraying them. Instead, he did something far more subtle.
Yeah, you would think if he was going to change his fortune, he'd take out the part about him betraying them. Instead, he did something far more subtle.
Why doesn't Pakunoda just read his mind? Was the false conclusion the leader was led to preventing that course of action? IIRC, Hisoka's fake fortune implied that he cannot tell them about the chain user, but does that apply to when your mind is simply read?
Peace.
Good point. If push came to shove, I'm sure Hisoka could say that the conditions set upon him require that he prevent anyone from gaining that information through any means, which is reasonable considering that Hisoka claims that he was forced to tell the chain user of the troupe member's powers, including Pakunoda's. So if she tried to read his mind, he'd fight her. If the other members came to assist, he'd run. That potentiality though makes Hisoka's gambit even more risky.
"You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood."
- Inquisitor Czevak
Haha. What do you guys think these fellows are? They are almost at the very bottom of the scale of criminal scum, the worst kinds of murderers and pillagers. And yet among them Hisoka is still hiding something even the rest wouldn't want to hear: That he's only there to fight (to the death) their leader. There was never a moment, from the beginning, Hisoka would have allowed Pakunoda anywhere near him, and now less than ever. Considering who they are, they all have their secrets, if nothing else, then the full extent of their powers. Few of them would want their own mind to be probed directly, which is why none of them now required Hisoka's mind to be scanned.
I´d say there´s also the thing about it being done "intentionally". If Pakunoda had read Hisoka´s mind without him knowing, everything would have been fine. Now that Hisoka knows that the other members want to know his secret, he would have to intentionally allow Pakunoda to read his mind ... und thus be breaking the limitation set by Kurapika.
That...is a very good point.Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Pakunoda didn't read his mind because Hisoka would never have allowed her to do so. If he did i don't think the rest of the Spiders would be too happy with his real motives for being in the organization in the first place.
Yes but, given the situation, in what position would he be in to refuse?
It's a "Well, I'm going to read your mind to find out what happened."
"I'm not going to let you."
"Okay, I guess the other 11 of us are going to kill you then."
Maybe he could imply that they would all die if she tried by law of kurrapica's ability.
Although I'm repeating myself, but the very reason that didn't happen wasn't a mistake in Togashi's writing but a reality of the group. They can't demand one of them to be brain scanned without risking creating a precedent that any of them could be probed in the future. No ordinary human would want that to happen to themselves, super criminals all the less. Plus murderers like these working perfectly together is a very delicate and rare thing in itself. You could see that trust among them at large was quite a superficial thing (aside from individual cases), and establishing mind probing would have likely caused the whole group to fall apart soon.
So, in short, he would be in a very understandable position to refuse. He also knew that his plot had high chances of failing.
Hisoka mentioned that he'd be forced to defend himself. Don't think the rest needs to be explained.
Kuroro assumed that Hisoka was under a restriction and didn't want to risk him dying over nothing. As Munsu pointed out, Hisoka said he'd have to defend himself -- the implication being that he'd die if Pakunoda read his mind.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
I feel like you guys are practically writing fanfiction here to justify this plot hole.
When speaking of defending himself, he was clearly talking about if someone like Nobunaga attacked him. And his exact words were that he couldn't answer. Pakunodo could have retreived answers from him without him having to answer.
Basically, with the information he gave them, there should have been no reason they would have thought Pakunoda's ability wouldn't work, and given the situation Hisoka WANTED them to believe(that he'd being somehow controlled/limited by the chain user) in such a situation, Hisoka would have WANTED her to use her power so that he could convey information without having to reveal it himself.
By refusing to allow her to use her power, he'd basically be admitting that the boss' conclusion wasn't true.
And if your next argument is, "well maybe the chain user's power wouldn't allow him to do anything that would reveal what happened, including having their mind read" if that was the case, than the same limitation would have prevented him from handing over his fortune to the rest of the group in the first place.
It's a plot-hole. Period. You can make up excuses about group dynamic and whatnot, but like I said, it's just fanfic.
In the situation Hisoka WANTED them to believe, he would have wanted her to read his mind as a way of passing them information without having to give it to them directly. And any clause that would have prevented him from letter her read his mind would have also prevented him from handing over his fortune.
Yeah, right. So, it's automatically a plothole if it wasn't explained in painstaking detail? Maybe in a shounen show every single thing needs to be explained, just like in a fight the participants explain their every move beforehand and afterwards, but even so it might be just bad shounen writing, not a plothole.
Ok, yes, something unexplained and unaccounted for in the plot exists given what we know about it. The key here is that there are a number of easily conceivable and acceptable explanations for that plot hole. You don't have to dig deep, stretch far, etc. to come up with something to fill the hole. This basically means that is not terrible writing. The things we use to fill the hole are fan-fiction? Ok, so what? These fanfics arose from someone pointing out the plot hole, which we then filled with reasonable explanations.
As far as the fortune is concerned and him being able to hand it over, just think about what would happen if Kurapica got to use the judgement chain on Hisoka, and Hisoka was a real, loyal spider. There are any number of reasons Kurapica might want to keep Hisoka alive, one of which is to continue gaining information from him. However, he doesn't want his identity revealed in case their relationship is discovered by the spiders. So Kurapica places a restriction on him: "Don't allow any information you have discovered about me at this meeting, or will discover about me in future meetings to become known by the spiders." At which point, Hisoka would object, saying that should he be discovered, he's dead anyway if he can't say anything, there's no way he's beating all those monsters. So Kurapica modifies the restriction: "they are allowed to know that there is a restriction upon you preventing you from divulging the information they seek."
This would allow him to hand over the version of the fortune he handed over, answer chrollo in the manner he answered, and yet not allow him to let Pakunoda read his mind. Is this fan-fiction? Sure. Is it unreasonable? I don't think so, at least. And there are probably a number of other explanations the author could easily have fit in there if he was so inclined. It's not necessary though. The deception Hisoka weaved was solid enough to withstand the situation it was designed to.
"You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood."
- Inquisitor Czevak
Why are you all forgetting that Hisoka cleverly fabricated the fact that he told the chain-user about the abilities of 8 members in the troupe (including Pakunoda) and not just 2? This is an important part of the lie. It is not so far-fetched to assume that the chain-user would have some kind of safeguard to protect against Hisoka's mind being read if he were aware of Pakunoda's powers.
It seems to me that Togashi already considered this 'plot-hole'.
Edit: Seems Uchiha Barles already made this point earlier, but it was glossed over
Last edited by Splash!; Wed, 11-14-2012 at 04:28 PM.
I know that there are possible explanations as to why Pakunoda did not read Hisoka's mind. I just wish they mentioned or at least clearly implied one so that the viewers did not have to guess at it by making assumptions.
The author makes essays about just one of Kurapica's powers, but does not spare one sentence to explain this. I don't think it is terrible writing at all. I just find it a bit uncharacteristic for this show.
Peace.
"Plot holes", the most overused and misused concept in storytelling.
It's a plothole if there is a gap in the logic of something and there are characters present that have been established as clever geniuses and they don't notice said gap.
The fact that there is an inconsistency in Hisoka's story is not a plot-hole. After all, his story is fabricated. The fact that there's a way to test it and neither Chrollo nor anyone else present thinks of it, given the intelligence that has been attributed to some of those characters, is one.
That would be all well and good, IF someone present had at least thought to bring up the obvious solution, and Hisoka had similarly refused.
But the fact that it wasn't brought up implies that either the writer himself didn't think of it, or he couldn't think of an excuse to get around it, so he simply didn't bring it up and hoped no one would notice.
Clearly it wasn't if several members of this board noticed it immediately and we're probably not nearly as intelligent as the writer wants us to believe Chrollo and some of the other spiders are.
Last edited by DarthEnderX; Wed, 11-14-2012 at 11:22 PM.
Again, Hisoka mentioned that Pakunoda's powers were revealed to the chain user. Given Chrollo's analysis of Hisoka's answers and the fortune, he probably figured that the chain user used the information Hisoka gave up in order to craft a proper restriction that would account for Paku's mind reading abilities. If a reasonable restriction is given by the anime, or is crafted as "fan-fic" then, a leap of logic is not required to understand why it would be reasonable for Chrollo not to bring up Paku's mind reading abilities. Same goes for all of the spiders. In fact, I think it would be more reasonable for someone with an emotional motivation to request that Paku use her abilities. Admittedly, I didn't think about it until I saw someone post of it here, but before I was done logging in to respond, I already had a handful of reasons as to how this scenario could reasonably exist. They flow naturally given what we know about the world, the characters, and the lie.
It's a possibility that the writer himself did not, or could not think of an excuse to get around it, but it is not a necessary implication. For one, there are a bunch of possible explanations on this thread alone from people who haven't thought as deeply about the series as you would expect the writer of the series would. It is annoying to always have everything explained in exhaustive detail, particularly when unnecessary. It would be unnecessary here considering there is no leap of logic, and the exposition would be done to account for something that's a fabrication in the universe to begin with. Finally, considering the quality of Togashi's previous work along with his work in hxh up to this point (and beyond if you're privy to it), I don't see what is accounting for the difficulty here in giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I kind of see your point, but again, excessive exposition gets to be a pain in the ass. Avoid it where you can. To me, this seems like a prime place to avoid it because 1) the situation is a fabrication, and 2) the explanation for it is easily contrived.
Like I said, I didn't notice it, but once it was brought to my attention, it took no time to figure out why it wasn't much of an issue. It doesn't take a genius for that. It's not unreasonable to think Chrollo the genius noticed it, and that Chrollo came to some conclusion as to why it was accounted for (i.e. the chain user knows of Pakunoda's powers).
"You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood."
- Inquisitor Czevak
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
