Fate/Zero

[Kraco]

I'm saying that it's Rider who did the initiating, not Maya. It's a sign of aggression, you'd be stupid not to read it as such, or know that it would trigger such a response.

If someone busts your door open, you still have the option to see whether it's the police swat team (and decide not to fight back because you'd lose by default) or if it's the neighbourhood hooligan gang (you can let your shotgun do the talking because the rest will run when the first goes down). So, while strictly objectively kicking the door in is already initiating, it's not really the first thing that counts - as long as the one coming in doesn't want to kill you no matter what.

[Archangel]

It wasn't Rider...

[Buffalobiian]

@Ark: what makes you think that? And what do you mean my "it"? The killer wasn't Rider, or the dude carrying Iri wasn't Rider?

@David: how would Rider know what happenned to Lancer was my question. Servants don't automatically get updated on who dies, otherwise faking Assassin's death wouldn't have worked. Rider also retreated for the night and was't at Lancer's fight.

@Kraco: very well.

[Archangel]

Because Rider is bro tier and bros don't do that shit.

[NeoCybercoin]

Don't know bout you guys but I couldn't wait for UTW.
[Commie] Fate⁄Zero-21

[Archangel]

Bitch deserved to be choked.

[shinta|hikari]

The tragedy in this show is addictive.

So Rin's mother actually blamed Kariya for Sakura's fate the whole time. Talk about misplaced blame... She does deserve the end that she got, though Kariya somewhat deserves this conclusion as well.

[Archangel]

I don't think any of them truly deserve to suffer like they did.

With the exception of the characters that were already evil in FSN, the FZ characters all seem to be either standing for what they believe in or fighting to protect the ones they love.

They're all meeting gruesome endings nonetheless simply because that's the author's style and because none of these characters are allowed to remain alive for the sequel.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 21

[shinta|hikari]

I must be less forgiving than you are.

Kariya is a lunatic who assumed what was best for his love, and ended up going insane and killing her.

Rin's mom was blindly in love with Rin's dad and blamed Kariya for Sakura's fate, despite Tokiomi being the real cause.

For me, this conclusion fits their actions. Motives matter little, unlike consequences.

[Buffalobiian]

Kariya is a lunatic who assumed what was best for his love, and ended up going insane and killing her.

That's debatable. As we discussed earlier, the Tohsakas probably didn't know exactly how the Matous get their power and thought giving their daughter away was essentially giving her a second life (as a mage) that she would not otherwise have had if she stayed with the Tohsakas. He knew how much suffering Aoi was suffering, but he also knew of Sakura's, which Aoi herself didn't.

Blind-rage killing was.. unfortunate, but I wouldn't excuse it, no.

Rin's mom was blindly in love with Rin's dad and blamed Kariya for Sakura's fate, despite Tokiomi being the real cause.

For her, Tokiomi's not at fault. Aoi accepts the fate of magi and their ways, even if they conflict with her personally.Tokiomi gave away their daughter for two reasons:

1) Because she had potential, but most importantly,
2) because Matous lineage ended

While Shinji had zero abilities of his own, Kariya was still at a passable level to be called a mage. Had he not walked away from the path of magic that was his destiny, Zouken would not have requested for Sakura. (at least, not until they lose this war or something anyway..) I imagine that would be Aoi's thinking, and as the wife of a mage, she's not exactly wrong.

[Kraco]

While Shinji had zero abilities of his own, Kariya was still at a passable level to be called a mage. Had he not walked away from the path of magic that was his destiny, Zouken would not have requested for Sakura. (at least, not until they lose this war or something anyway..) I imagine that would be Aoi's thinking, and as the wife of a mage, she's not exactly wrong.

Indeed. Aoi still thinks like mages do, assuming the most talented of the offspring will carry on the family's inheritance, out of pride, responsibility, and duty. In fact it was conflicted of her to blame Kariya at that point because giving Sakura to Matou assured Sakura could become a mage as well, but I think seeing her husband dead was somewhat shaking for her and made her only think as a mother - at which she failed as well by dying now and leaving Rin alone. Though even if Kariya hadn't cracked all the way through now, Kirei might have killed Aoi all the same.

Man, Kirei dying in FSN feels all the better after every episode of this show, but on the other hand Rin being left under his care feels equally all the worse.

[David75]

Street Hawk Arthur Armored Yamaha Vmax FTW!

That show is eye candy each ep. So much that you even grow tired of it, or feel unsatisfied when it's a little less superb.

The Vmax in itself is an incredible machine, I feel like they did some blasphemy with that attire.

Other than that, an ep I can forget.

[Buffalobiian]

Aoi still thinks like mages do, assuming the most talented of the offspring will carry on the family's inheritance, out of pride, responsibility, and duty. In fact it was conflicted of her to blame Kariya at that point because giving Sakura to Matou assured Sakura could become a mage as wel

I wouldn't go that far.

I'd say Aoi accepts the ways of mages, rather than thinks or takes pride in their ways. Tokiomi is the one who fully backs the "give Sakura a second life" ideology and might have even saw Zouken's request as an opportunity to save a dying lineage and let a young mage fulfil her potential. Aoi really doesn't care for that and would have rathered that Sakura live a sheltered life with the family instead, but she accepts her (and Sakura's) fate since she's the wife of a mage.

Aoi would never have seen the giving of Sakura to the Matous as a good move - for her or Sakura.

[NeoCybercoin]

Well Archie was right about Rider being bro material and doesn't go around abducting or killing people.

[Kraco]

Aoi would never have seen the giving of Sakura to the Matous as a good move - for her or Sakura.

She has hardly got enough screentime to conclusively judge one way or another. She seems like a "perfect" wife, though, always listening to her husband. But maybe you are correct, and she was simply very strong mentally, not letting it show visibly how much sending Sakura away was hurting her.

[Buffalobiian]

They had a conversation back in episode 01, around the 9:40 mark of UTW's release

"The head of the Tohsaka family decided to give our ancient allies, the Matous, what they requested. It wasn't my place to voice my opinion."
...
"It's wrong for a family bearing Mage blood to expect the happiness of a normal family."

Combined with her initial sadness, then finishing at discontent when she said that this was between Tohsaka and Matou... I'd say she's pretty pissed at him.

edit: Oh, I managed to revisit the scene where Rin vowed that she wouldn't forgive Kirei if Tokiomi got hurt because he was slacking off.

...
...
fuck you Kirei.

[shinta|hikari]

I was expecting a lot more from Kirei. I hoped that his transformation would make him into an interesting villain, but all it did was make him a lowly crook who likes to bully people. So what he found to stuff his emptiness is... sadism? Kinda boring.

[NeoCybercoin]

[Commie] Fate⁄Zero 22

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 22