Fate/Zero

[Ryllharu]

My biggest question here was how Iri felt about all this. She was disturbed, certainly, and their positioning symbolised their relative positions very well:

Saber at one end, Kiritsugu at the other, Irisviel in the middle (sort of, she's closer to Kiritsugu), being able to converse with both of them.

I think in the end, she can't fully agree with how Kiritsugu does things, but trusts his inner self and knows that he's only doing terrible acts for the sake of a better cause that will be worth it.

I agree with shinta, any change in her behavior became clear minutes later that she was just barely holding it together hiding her health issues. She doesn't want Kiritsugu to find out not only because she doesn't want him to worry, but also because she doesn't want him to lose his composure in public.

I'm convinced that while she is more sympathetic to Saber's disdain for Kiritsugu's methods, she's not in any way opposed to how he is doing things. The Einzberns are not good-hearted magi. They harbor no illusions about how the wars are fought, since they are one of the original families. Even her daughter, Ilya, is one of the most pragmatic and cruel magus in FSN, and look how happy and innocent she had been raised by her parents. She was never opposed to using less straightforward means, in addition to just having Berserker smash everything.

Iri does not share the pure-hearted naiveté hidden by bluster that Rin does, the knightly stupidity that Shirou does, or the righteousness that Archibald did and even Kariya seems to have in his own level of sacrifice. She's kind, but incredibly stern when she needs to be. In episode 8, she was asking that Maiya shoot Kirei in the back while she held him in place, before they found out how much of a monster he was first hand.

[shinta|hikari]

No naive idealist can love the mage-killer.

[Buffalobiian]

I agree with shinta, any change in her behavior became clear minutes later that she was just barely holding it together hiding her health issues.

I would have thought that was the case had she taken a different approach. She seemed awfully critical of him this episode. Outwardly/objectively critical doesn't equate to inner disagreement (I'm a prime example of that). Given the way she usually trusts Kiritsugu though, I had to wonder if she wanted to hear Kiritsugu's explanation herself as much as she wanted him to say his feelings to Saber.

I don't feel this way from just this episode. It stems from her scenes during and after the Archibald fight at the Einzbern castle. Her face suggested she was either slightly unsure of Kiritsugu's methods while believing he's human or simply out of worry that his actions will cause a rift between his servant and himself.

As for Einzbern upbringing, it's true that Einzberns haven't been shown to be good hearted Magi, but their status as being one of the original families and all doesn't matter. Daddy Tohsaka's a good counter-example. I do think that my perception of the magi ways has been changed somewhat though. Archibald's shooting of the priest this episode blurred the stark contrast that was established by the likes of Tohsaka and Kiritsugu.

In episode 8, she was asking that Maiya shoot Kirei in the back while she held him in place, before they found out how much of a monster he was first hand.

...

I don't know what to think of this one. Like.. Saber's all honourable and stuff if the enemy's a decent person. She had no problem ganging up on the sea monster last time. I see it as perfectly reasonable for two girls to help each other when some man attacks them at night..




Anyway, to bring it back to the point.. I suppose Iri's concerned/unsure look at the castle and her questioning ways this episode were all due to her trying to maximise the relationship/understanding between Kiritsugu and Saber.

[Ryllharu]

Mentioning that they are one of the original families means that they have fought in every war since its inception, so they know honor may not always be present. Even children's card game series don't pretend that everything is done honorably. Honor-bound combat isn't called an "ideal" for no reason.

Rin is a counter-example. We know that she gets raised believing all magi are great and wonderful. Of her father, she sees him making unicorns and stuff out of crystals, not burning her uncle alive. She doesn't yet realize how brutal things really are. Tokiomi is largely sheltering her. You'll note he had no such reservations about his other daughter.

If it was the 5th War, Iri would have left him tied up to the tree. Instead, with zero hesitation, she asked Maiya to kill him while she held him in place. Saber isn't a super-idealist because of how her reign ultimately went, so she wouldn't have objected to the killing itself, but shooting someone in the back while they are helpless is not the definition of honorable. However, Iri knew that was the only way they could stop Kirei (even if it ultimately failed).

[fireheart]

Even if you don't know Kiritsugu has an underling, you do know he's got a servant.
You really should be able to understand that Kiritsugu could have asked Saber to kill Archibald and Sola before he is bound by the contract...

Wouldn't ordering Saber to kill them be the same as breaking the contract since he can't intend to harm them thus once the contract is in place he can't order anyone to harm them.

[Buffalobiian]

Mentioning that they are one of the original families means that they have fought in every war since its inception, so they know honor may not always be present.

It doesn't mean they automatically approve of encourage such actions, which was what you're suggesting with "they're not good hearted magi".

Rin is a counter-example. We know that she gets raised believing all magi are great and wonderful. Of her father, she sees him making unicorns and stuff out of crystals, not burning her uncle alive. She doesn't yet realize how brutal things really are. Tokiomi is largely sheltering her. You'll note he had no such reservations about his other daughter.

Rin didn't think Magi were assholes when she was being reared, but I'm sure she learned that soon enough. I would imagine she came across enough to find at least one bad apple. Not sure if she thought Kirei was one though.

Tokiomi still held his own code of being a proud magi and everything. Picking a fight with Berserker's master while the two servants duke it out is different than letting your servants duke it out and secretly sniping/extorting the other guy (especially to the point where you force the master to kill their own servant before you do so).

If it was the 5th War, Iri would have left him tied up to the tree. Instead, with zero hesitation, she asked Maiya to kill him while she held him in place. Saber isn't a super-idealist because of how her reign ultimately went, so she wouldn't have objected to the killing itself, but shooting someone in the back while they are helpless is not the definition of honorable. However, Iri knew that was the only way they could stop Kirei (even if it ultimately failed).

I totally don't get this.. Iri in the 5th war? /lost the rest.

[Kraco]

Tokiomi still held his own code of being a proud magi and everything. Picking a fight with Berserker's master while the two servants duke it out is different than letting your servants duke it out and secretly sniping/extorting the other guy (especially to the point where you force the master to kill their own servant before you do so).

I don't know about that. I'm more inclined to agree with Gil and think Tokiomi just likes to sit on his hands bathing in intelligence and cooking up nefarious plots till the day the sun runs out of fusion material.

[David75]

Wouldn't ordering Saber to kill them be the same as breaking the contract since he can't intend to harm them thus once the contract is in place he can't order anyone to harm them.

The contract binds Kiritsugu for actions he takes after it is in effect.
Strategies he had hours before are not excluded. That's why it is strange Archibald isn't even able to see that.

But I guess that in the end he had no choice at all since he really cared about Sola.
Should he agree or not, they're both dead no matter what.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't know about that. I'm more inclined to agree with Gil and think Tokiomi just likes to sit on his hands bathing in intelligence and cooking up nefarious plots till the day the sun runs out of fusion material.

Well he did jump out of Gil's UFO on his own accord after seeing Kiriya.

[Kraco]

Well he did jump out of Gil's UFO on his own accord after seeing Kiriya.

I guess even old Tokiomi got a little spirited when he was forced to leave his lair to deal with the building sized tentacle monster about to raep the city and drawing too much attention.

[Ryllharu]

Rin didn't think Magi were assholes when she was being reared, but I'm sure she learned that soon enough. I would imagine she came across enough to find at least one bad apple. Not sure if she thought Kirei was one though.

I totally don't get this.. Iri in the 5th war? /lost the rest.

Sweating the details...missing the point. It's a joke. IF Irisviel was a character in the 5th War given her outward disposition, she would act like all the young stupid children involved in that war (Shirou, Rin, Shinji, even Bazett). The 5th War was a lot more touchy-feely, shallow, and fair. It was a much more defensive war, assaults were mostly blatant and lacking pretty much all subterfuge. Rather than trying to kill Kirei, she would have just tied him up, and left him there believing the problem resolved for the night.

As for Rin, sure, by the time the war started, she was very jaded on the outside, hardened, and stern. But wasn't the whole point of UBW and the latter half of Fate that deep down, Rin is as much of a noble idealist as Shirou? Even though she knew that wasn't the case, she wanted it to be true.

[KrayZ33]

Woah, Lancer scared the shit out of me.
I'm very impressed by Fate/Zero so far, its without doubt one, if not *the* best anime I've seen so far. This episode (of course among others) made sure of it.

I love Emiya's view of things, he's totally right with everything he said to Saber so far.

edit: the more I watch it, the more I like it

its hard to explain, but Lancer's Death Scene has so much meaning to it.
You could understand why he got so pissed, why he cursed everyone around him.
You start to feel bad for Saber, who gets falsely accused too...
Despair, hate, rage, sorrow, fear, everything was there.

and right after that, there is a (in my opinion) really meaningfull discussion whether someone should care about Valor, Honor and Chivalry or not etc.

you see, Lancer going "berserk" is not comparable to Naruto or (insert random shounen-MC) seeking "revenge", its not his wish to protect someone he loves after she got hurt by the villain or something like that. Everything he got has been taken away by them and even though he's suppossed to be a "heroic spirit", he was always forced to betray his ways... all the time.

man, I think this had a greater impact on me than any other Anime scene before so far.

[animus]

As much as Kiritsugu sounds right I still hate him. Also further compounded by my hate for his Voice Actor. Both things just pissed me off so much during the episode.

Also I feel bad for the Lancer class in general. They get the typically most boring Noble Phantasms, and the lamest exits. Short end all the way.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't know of any heroes who are known for using lances/spears besides Odin, but he's a god so he might not count. Gil and Hercules are part divine/raised on Earth.. so I don't think they count as actual fully divine gods.

That pretty much means they had to make up the stats for the other lancers.

[Archangel]

Gods can't become servants, it's a rule.

Off the top of my head i think the Roman who speared Jesus could probably become a antihero servant.


-spoiler removed

[Ryllharu]

But demigods definitely can.

Gilgamesh, 5th War Rider, 5th War Caster (1/4 god), 5th War Berserker.

Arch: [spoiler]Oh, and for the sake of the constantly butthurt whiners in this thread, that latter example is a technically a spoiler.[/spoiler]

[shinta|hikari]

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[Kraco]

Off the top of my head i think the Roman who speared Jesus could probably become a antihero servant.

Haha. Did that guy even have a name? I don't think he did. But since his noble phantasm would be a confirmed hit on a person nailed to a cross and thus utterly helpless, possibly even dead already, I think I'd just quit the grail war right off the bat and leave the city in a hurry if I was the unlucky master who received such an uber lousy servant.

[Ryllharu]

One culture that Type Moon has generally avoided is the Chinese. I don't know why we've never seen Guan Yu. Maybe he was summoned in the First War or something, and was too badass to bring back.

Or perhaps it was that was deified, so he isn't eligible.

[Buffalobiian]

One culture that Type Moon has generally avoided is the Chinese. I don't know why we've never seen Guan Yu. Maybe he was summoned in the First War or something, and was too badass to bring back.

Or perhaps it was that was deified, so he isn't eligible.

The bulk of heroes we've (or I've) seen in FSN are all non-Asian heroes. The only exceptions are 5th war Archer and 5th war Caster's assassin.

Add that with the fact that the Magi Association is in London and how all of Tohsaka, Einzbern and Matou having Western estates in Fuyuki city, I assume that the magical culture of this world is of western origin. (To boot, Rin's chants and the scroll Kiritsugu presented weren't remotely Asian, plus the regulatory body in this land of Shinto and Buddhism (ie Japan) is the Church, strangely enough)

It's not to say that heroes never appeared in other cultures.. just that they don't really fit into the theme of things as such.