Fate/Zero

[shinta|hikari]

I like Gil far more than I like Rider. His tirade about being a King and him calling Arturia a little girl was absurd. He should be wise enough to know that there are many ways to take up that role.

I very much prefer Saber's take on the position. It is unfortunate she was easily shaken, probably because of her inexperience. We should not forget that Saber does not look young. She is young.

Both Arturia and Iskandar showed their faults in the discussion, while Gil brought fine wine. Yes, he wins.

@Kraco - Saber did her best and knows she did. She is regretting that someone else could have done better, had she not taken up the role (FSN game and anime). To have someone else rule in fact, is her wish. You should not forget how Arturia became king (pulls sword = instant king) while Iskandar was born and raised a conqueror.

[David75]

Arturia did pull the sword when Merlin was strongly warning her...
And yes, she looks 14, the age she had when she pulleth the sword...

Alexander died age 33, which is not a lot considering the impact he had on his time.

[Kraco]

@Kraco - Saber did her best and knows she did. She is regretting that someone else could have done better, had she not taken up the role (FSN game and anime). To have someone else rule in fact, is her wish. You should not forget how Arturia became king (pulls sword = instant king) while Iskandar was born and raised a conqueror.

That makes her an even lousier king. And that's what they were talking about. If pulling a sword makes you an instant king, you better think for a moment before pulling the sword or accept responsibility like a real king, not like a wishful girl who tries to escape the reality and responsibility into long dreams.

[shinta|hikari]

I did not mean that someone else could have actually done better. I meant that she thinks that way. If someone with such kindness and honor failed, who else could have done better? And before anyone brings up Iskandar, his kingdom crumbled pretty hard too.

She is not trying to escape responsibility, but change destiny. I think that is a larger burden and responsibility than you might think.

[ForteCross]

@someone saying alexander not accepting the bad, i recall alexander saying that you must be the bad and the good to rule...

also neither saber nor rider know what it is to lead, they both are way too extremist but i would say that alexander has a better point, not only he was more successfully than saber. you cannot lead to serve... saber could have been the best knight, the right hand of a king, serving him so he can be a better king while alexander was a tyrant and acknowledge that.

we are not talking about diplomacy here, its not like someone is selected to serve the country.

the people should serve the king, and the king should work to make his country bigger, stronger thus providing the people defense, laws, and more space so his country grows... a king who wants only to serve the people would not work, while a tyrant might work for some time, but the best king would be the one who combines both ideals

[Splash!]

I don't really agree with Rider's views, but his criticism of Saber's is pretty spot on. Initially, he is pissed that she would go so far as to undo her mark on history because she thinks things would have turned out better. She is basically saying that if you try and fail, it is better to have not tried at all. She is also being a little egotistical by implying that the unraveling of her country's fate was a direct consequence of the choices she made and nothing else.

She later goes on to define a king by the set of principles they should follow and the responsibilities they must shoulder. It is more about what they must do than who they are. To this, Rider points out that this is no way to live. He would rather take every aspect of human personality to the extreme than to deny his human nature by trying to live up to a completely unattainable ideology and then punishing oneself for failing to do so.

Again, not saying that Rider is completely right, since he would magnify every human trait equally (both good and evil). But unlike Saber, he would take the road that would allow him to accomplish more with his life. Saber would rather be constantly second guessing herself after every decision and become a victim to her circumstances. And I think history would validate this. Although both Saber and Rider failed as leaders, Rider accomplished more.

[animus]

They should all just learn from Waver-kun on how to be a real monarch.

[Buffalobiian]

Iskandar = Big Bandit Brother
Saber = Guardian/Watchdog
Gilgamesh = ??????

The biggest part of Iskandar's speech was that Saber did not lead, that she didn't live a life that others wanted.. that others could relate to.. and thereby became separated from her own people.

Her people look to her for salvation/protection when required, but they do not look to her for inspiration.

I wonder what Rider's Charisma stat is..

[Archangel]

Iskandar = Big Bandit Brother
Saber = Guardian/Watchdog
Gilgamesh = ??????

The biggest part of Iskandar's speech was that Saber did not lead, that she didn't live a life that others wanted.. that others could relate to.. and thereby became separated from her own people.

Her people look to her for salvation/protection when required, but they do not look to her for inspiration.

I wonder what Rider's Charisma stat is..

Duh? Charisma: A

For the record, Saber has B.

[Buffalobiian]

Duh? Charisma: A

For the record, Saber has B.

Well I wasn't sure. Also couldn't remember if Gil was A or A+ (and at the same time, whether Saber was B vs B+)

[fireheart]

I like Gil far more than I like Rider. His tirade about being a King and him calling Arturia a little girl was absurd. He should be wise enough to know that there are many ways to take up that role.

Except Gil laughed at her views of how a King should be and was the first one to call her a little girl. The only difference is that Gil didn't call her a little girl more than once and didn't give her a speech like Rider did but considering his pride etc he's probably agrees more with Rider than with Saber. Of course there are the words he left her at the end and I don't think he's lying when he said it, though it seemed more that he wanted to test her worth or like he said before judge those who are after his treasures.

All in all I can't say Rider is wrong about Saber she is indeed a girl that dreams of an ideal. While those ideals are great and if more leaders were like that the world would probably be a better place. But if what Rider said is true that she never led her people and only saved them then I have to agree that she's not worthy of being a King. If she actually saved them and led her people and thus connecting with them then I would have said she's the far superior King compared to the others, to bad she didn't but then again if she did then she probably wouldn't be in this war and that scene where she remembers the past probably wouldn't have happened.

I did not mean that someone else could have actually done better. I meant that she thinks that way. If someone with such kindness and honor failed, who else could have done better?

She is not trying to escape responsibility, but change destiny. I think that is a larger burden and responsibility than you might think.

I can't really say if she was kind, at least not the kind that I think of when I hear that word. If what the knight told her that she doesn't understand the people is true then in my opinion she isn't truly kind because to really be kind you need empathy and that statement implies that she lacking in that area. This is just my opinion but whenever I help someone without feeling any kind of empathy towards them then it's just an action from my side to uphold my ideals of how people should be, it's not kindness from my side what so ever, this actually happens a lot and I recognize it as such it's merely my views of how people should act that dictate that action. I don't find it wrong but I'll never call it real kindness unless there's empathy/feelings behind it. Honor on the other hand she got plenty of.

So in a way Saber is right since she probably would have fit the role of a knight far better and left the role of a King to someone else.


And how about that I was wrong Rider actually does want the Grail.

[Kraco]

I can't really say if she was kind, at least not the kind that I think of when I hear that word. If what the knight told her that she doesn't understand the people is true then in my opinion she isn't truly kind because to really be kind you need empathy and that statement implies that she lacking in that area.

From a ruler's point of view there's far more to understanding people than just kindness. She's supposed to be a king, not some clergy sister looking after the sick and dying. What Rider said is also understanding people: That the masses need someone to look up to so that they would themselves try to reach higher (by themselves, not by accepting hand-outs, like is Saber's version of a good ruler). A ruler must understand people to be able to rule them efficiently. It's as much about divide and rule as seeing their basic needs are met to avoid rebellions.

We live in democracies but only a hopeless fool would think our leaders give a shit about our happiness, yet they understand people so well that always before the elections they can say and do the right things to get reelected.

[fireheart]

I agree with what you said kraco though I only intended for it to reflect my view on what kindness means, if you can't understand people then you can't feel for them either resulting in a lack of empathy and a person who lacks that is in my view unable to truly be kind. Which is why I have problems viewing Saber as kind. Whether a ruler has that or not is a different matter completely, still her ideals aren't bad.

[Kraco]

I'm sure she's kind on a personal level and following her own concept of kindness. Yet quite often one person's kindness is not viewed as such by great many others. So, if she doesn't understand people like you said, then she can't judge whether her kindness is needed or even welcome. Which is probably the case based on everything we have seen.

[Buffalobiian]

Throwing this in here, at the end of the FSN anime, Saber mentions that her country abandoned her, while Gil abandoned his own country.

As for kindness, I also vaguely remember some of her flashbacks from Saber herself saying that she had to lock away her kindness as a king - that a king had to rule and make decisions that the others could not... or something to that effect.

[Kraco]

As for kindness, I also vaguely remember some of her flashbacks from Saber herself saying that she had to lock away her kindness as a king - that a king had to rule and make decisions that the others could not... or something to that effect.

Isn't that the complete opposite to what she was saying in this episode? Or perhaps she's one of those people who preaches one way, but is then the first to do the opposite... That does sound more like a real king.

Although wasn't she talking more about romantic feelings and such? Granted, I don't really remember that much at all of Saber's details.

[Buffalobiian]

Isn't that the complete opposite to what she was saying in this episode?

Hmm.. well I could be wrong since as you point out it does seem to contradict.

Then again.. perhaps not.

From this episode, we got:

-Saber may not understand her people
-Saber does not do what her people require most
-Saber believes in her own idea of what a king should be

If my recollection has any hint of truth, then it's possible that Saber made decisions that she thought the people wanted, whereas they didn't actually want to in the first place.

Or.. did I misunderstand your post entirely?

[Kraco]

I was mainly hinting she might have been like most people are: Having lofty ideals but then in practice doing someting quite else. If she here was preaching her ideals to Rider and Archer, but in FSN was confessing how things really were. Although shutting down her own emotions to be able to serve her people makes perfect sense: After all, Rider is the example of what you have if you aren't a saint and do what your own feelings tell you to do. Serving the people would require switching all natural selfishness off. However, if a monarch isn't selfish, they're soon going to be an ex-monarch, because there surely are lots of capable - and selfish - people waiting for an opportunity to change the leadership. That could result in a possible power struggle (or civil war later in history when nation states exist), which is the single greatest disservice a ruler can grant to their subjects. And exactly what Saber by all accounts achieved.

What ordinary citizens in fact desire are stability and predictability granting opportunities in a relatively safe environment. Nothing more. Such a thing wouldn't of course satisfy Iskandar either, making him little better.

[Alhuin]

UTW - Episode 12

[Kraco]

Gilgamesh really is getting major fleshing in this show, compared to FSN (game included). He was left pretty superficial in FSN, despite being a major villain. Although he's so pure and simple that even a superficial observation hits very close to the mark. Compared to Saber he certainly acts more like a king. I suppose his little conversations with Kirei are now ending with Tokiomi finally deciding to take action (and thus relieving Gil from his boredom) and Gilgamesh himself probably thinking he did all he could to lay the foundation for Kirei's betrayal. In any case Gilgamesh is made to look far more intelligent in this show than FSN.

It was nice to see the old Emiya mansion. I bet Shirou had no idea even Ilya's mom lived there for a short while. The sudden appearance of the magic circle that summoned Saber in the next war was given a proper explanation here, which might be the most important detail of that whole part of the episode.