Fate/Zero

[shinta|hikari]

If you are saying that you personally cannot see someone you can understand as pathetic, then that is fine.

I must have misunderstood thinking that you are saying that people in general cannot do so. I had no intention of invalidating your personal views.

[Buffalobiian]

Fuck. You. Kotomine. Kirei.

Iri surviving doesn't make me feel any better towards you, but it will make me sleep better tonight (and give Kiritsugu 9000+ extra points on top of his already Over 9000 epicness).

Only two ribs? I'd grind up every bone I can to make those bullets - but if grinding up your body transfers your ability (and having your body pierced potentially stuffing it up), I guess your magic circuit must diminish from such an extraction.

We got a detailed shot of the bullet that Kiritsugu used the second time.. so that's the one that contained Kiritsugu's ribs? When I first understood it, I was assuming the first bullet was the one that fucked him up. It's how he pierced the the barrier in the first place, and retied the guy's magic circuit in a warped way. Kayneth was affected when he overloaded his circuit to defend against the second bullet. So.. why the special view? It certainly looked like a non-regular casing - just a magically enhanced damage x500 bullet?

I don't get Saber's bitching. She and Lancer can fight as honourably as they want. The Magi can duke it out however they want. From memory, I don't think Saber had a problem with going after Masters in the 5th war since she understand that doing so is the most effective way to beat an enemy. Not allowing Lancer's master to die is like saying that the fight has to solely rely on servant-servant combat.

[Archangel]

Umad because Kotomine-sama had to slap a hoe? She was disrespectin him!

I'd imagine she learned her lesson since then, which would explain why she seemed so much more dependable and reliable then than she does now.

[shinta|hikari]

It was her way of thanking Lancer for saving her from the fodder summoned by caster.

I think the 1st bullet was also made from Kiritsugu's bones, but since the magic used to defend it was minimal, it also had minimal effect. Kiritsugu himself said that he wanted blob guy to use all his powers to defend the next shot. I believe that meant that the more magic is used to affect that bullet, the more the bullet has an effect on the user. The high level defensive move that blob guy used the 2nd time was what screwed him over.

[Ryllharu]

I don't get Saber's bitching. She and Lancer can fight as honourably as they want. The Magi can duke it out however they want. From memory, I don't think Saber had a problem with going after Masters in the 5th war since she understand that doing so is the most effective way to beat an enemy. Not allowing Lancer's master to die is like saying that the fight has to solely rely on servant-servant combat.

It's not the act of going after a Master instead of a Servant, it's the method. Saber didn't mind with Shirou because he's a dumbass. Every time they attacked another Master or Servant in Caster's case, they went right for it, head first. They were also saving people each time (the school, the people Caster preyed on). Saber doesn't like the cloak and dagger stuff, she rushes in without thinking too much.

As for Lancer leaving to rescue Kayneth and Saber not pursuing, the two of them promised an honorable fight, and Saber would have rushed to save Iris the same way. She was allowing Lancer to retreat with a promise that she at least would not stab him in the back as he did so.

[Buffalobiian]

Umad because Kotomine-sama had to slap a hoe? She was disrespectin him!

I'm mad because Kotomine no yatsu stabbed my favourite chick to see if she was warm human-ish.

I think the 1st bullet was also made from Kiritsugu's bones, but since the magic used to defend it was minimal, it also had minimal effect. Kiritsugu himself said that he wanted blob guy to use all his powers to defend the next shot. I believe that meant that the more magic is used to affect that bullet, the more the bullet has an effect on the user. The high level defensive move that blob guy used the 2nd time was what screwed him over.

I don't think the two attacks were the same. Kiritsugu said himself: "Now that he realises how strong that attack is, it won't work a second time. He'll put all his mana into defending. I need him to do it."

It's not the act of going after a Master instead of a Servant, it's the method. Saber didn't mind with Shirou because he's a dumbass. Every time they attacked another Master or Servant in Caster's case, they went right for it, head first. They were also saving people each time (the school, the people Caster preyed on). Saber doesn't like the cloak and dagger stuff, she rushes in without thinking too much.

Hmm.. I see where you're coming from. The reason behind my earlier comment was that this fight wasn't exactly assassination. Kayneth was looking for a fight, and he got it. Kiritsugu was hiding, sure - but that's like backing down in combat. Only he backs out of sight. :P

Then again, Saber doesn't necessarily know that Kiritsugu's fighting so much more "evenly" this time round.

I suppose my own Sneak-Dagger play style may affect which character I like to side with.

[fireheart]

Could be wrong but thought the first bullet was a normal one since there's quite a big difference in how Kayneth reacted to the bullets there's also no visible bullet wound on Kayneth that I can see from the second shot and lastly if it's the bullet that rolls around at 16:15 then it only hit the blob.

Wonder how many of those 66 bullets he has left.

[shinta|hikari]

The bullet does not affect flesh, but magic.

The first shot was defended only using minimal magic, so it simply penetrated and hit Kayneth.

The 2nd shot was defended with all of Kayneth's power, thinking it was necessary, and that affected him a great deal.

This all matches with what Kiritsugu said, and it is also supported by the identical bullets he placed in that gun in this episode. The 2nd bullet also never hit Kayneth. It affected him through his magic.

[Buffalobiian]

Could be wrong but thought the first bullet was a normal one since there's quite a big difference in how Kayneth reacted to the bullets there's also no visible bullet wound on Kayneth that I can see from the second shot and lastly if it's the bullet that rolls around at 16:15 then it only hit the blob.

In that case, it's the first bullet that was the bone-bullet.

The fact that the second bullet didn't hit him means it didn't affect him. That means he was already affected, and it was the effect of using his circuit 100% that make him spew blood - not the fact that the second bullet actually did anything.

The explanation about the Kiritsugu's origin is that it permanently damages/corrupts something in a way that isn't readily apparent (tying something back together). It's when you use the damaged product unknowingly that stuffs you up.

Say, Kiritsugu cuts, then reties your mountain rope without you knowing anything was wrong with it. Then he pushes you off the cliff, and you put all your weight onto the rope thinking it will save you. The knot stuffs you up and you go "oh shiiiiiiii-"

[fireheart]

Going by what shinta said it doesn't make sense that the first bullet was his origin bullet since if it affects magic and not the flesh it shouldn't have left a bullet hole in Kayneth and since the second shot only hit his magic it would make sense that it severed and reconnected every magic circuit that was being used for that magic. Also if I understood the explanations correct then it would have messed up Kayneths magic circuits from the start and not at the second bullet so it makes more sense that they were severed and reconnected at the second shot when he was using the most power than at the first when he was using less.

[shinta|hikari]

Thinking back, it is possible that the 1st bullet was normal. The gun itself just had to be abnormally powerful, making the mage defend himself with magic, like Kayneth did.

[fireheart]

Well there's also the whole point that if it severs and reconnects every magic circuit no matter if they're using them or not he wouldn't have to wait and should have just shot him with it right from the start and the end results would have been the same effect and if it's like that then what Kiritsugu did was pointless.

[Buffalobiian]

Going by what shinta said it doesn't make sense that the first bullet was his origin bullet since if it affects magic and not the flesh it shouldn't have left a bullet hole in Kayneth and since the second shot only hit his magic it would make since that it severed and reconnected every magic circuit that was being used for that magic.

Nothing said that the bullet affects magic only. It's a normal bullet with some bone infused into it. It will still damage you like a normal bullet - plus the Origin effect it now has.

Also if I understood the explanations correct then it would have messed up Kayneths magic circuits from the start and not at the second bullet so it makes more sense that they were severed and reconnected at the second shot when he was using the most power than at the first when he was using less.

My understanding was like the rope - its reconnected state works well enough until you overload it. But your explanation just now makes sense as well. I think I actually buy it over my own since it now explains the significance behind the second bullet frame.

By the way, taking into account of your previous post before this, it seems that you equate hitting his silver blob to hitting Kayneth's magic circuit. I don't share that line of thought, but it's certainly possible.

edit: missed the following:

Thinking back, it is possible that the 1st bullet was normal. The gun itself just had to be abnormally powerful, making the mage defend himself with magic, like Kayneth did.

Well there's also the whole point that if it severs and reconnects every magic circuit no matter if they're using them or not he wouldn't have to wait and should have just shot him with it right from the start and the end results would have been the same effect and if it's like that then what Kiritsugu did was pointless.

Yes. That makes complete sense now. Also explains why Kiritsugu was using a gun that took.. 2 seconds(?) to load a single bullet.

[David75]

For all we know Bullet 2 is there to force Keyneth go 100% with his powers.
So you can have all hypothesis to work. Bullet 1, Bullet 2 or both being part of the 66.

I'd go with Bullet 1 as the bone particles probably need some time to go through the blood vessels. But it's a huge bet as your opponent could find a way to discard it and you lose one of the precious 66 bullets. It's just that Kiritsugu knows those bastards so much he manipulates them into falling into his traps.

[Buffalobiian]

So you can have all hypothesis to work. Bullet 1, Bullet 2 or both being part of the 66.

Except for the fact that Kiritsugu states that both attacks are different (yet appearing to be the same outwardly), so I'm of the opinion that there ARE difference between the bullets.

Kiritsugu made Kayneth power up, then short-circuited him.

[bagandscalpel]

Well, well, it's a good thing Lancer has the woman to feed him delicious mana, otherwise he could've been just as messed up.

Now to watch as Kayneth gets consumed by impotent rage for the remainder of the show.

[Archangel]

Well, well, it's a good thing Lancer has the woman to feed him delicious mana, otherwise he could've been just as messed up.

Now to watch as Kayneth gets consumed by impotent rage for the remainder of the show.

Oh God... i just realized what he'd have to do if he couldn't supply him with mana regularly through his magical circuits...

[Kraco]

Oh God... i just realized what he'd have to do if he couldn't supply him with mana regularly through his magical circuits...

Haha. I think Lancer would rather kill himself and wait for the next chance to participate in the grail war.

[Archangel]

Haha. I think Lancer would rather kill himself and wait for the next chance to participate in the grail war.

And then he'd have to use his command seals to force him to...

Brb, banging head against the wall as hard as i can.

[Buffalobiian]

Just putting it out there, I don't think the other Magi Association girl has any romantic relationship with Keyneth. That guy's just pissed because he's getting shit-talked in a way that he can't talk back against.