Fate/Zero

[Buffalobiian]

While Lancer is pretty badass for wielding 2 lances, if this is all his Noble Phantasm's can do it's pretty boring. One just pierces magic armor, and the other inflicts unhealable wounds.

The first blade ignores/dispells magic. It could potentially cut through any magical attack.. but that potential hasn't been touched on yet.

[Archangel]

If you ask me, his lances are a whole more interesting than saber's golden magic beam of doom. They open the field for strategy and aren't a "i win" button.

[shinta|hikari]

Interesting, yes. Powerful, no. He is probably the weakest servant in the war, except maybe for Assassin who relies on numbers and espionage.

[Archangel]

Interesting, yes. Powerful, no. He is probably the weakest servant in the war, except maybe for Assassin who relies on numbers and espionage.

Your so called weakest servant made the strongest class his bitch.

[fireheart]

Isn't Lancer one of the 3 major classes? Personally I think both Lancers so far have been some of the stronger servants, 5th with his reversing cause and effect instant stab your heart spear and didn't Saber say that it's more effective in this war than hers because it's anti personal which is more suited and he can use it more often? Then there's this one with his two spears that are well suited for fighting pretty much most servants. The fact that there are some OP servants like Archers is a different matter, in terms of Noble Phantasms Saber feels more like a lot of hype to me since all you can avoid Excalibur if you're far away (Not that we've seen anyone try that) or just stop her swing if you're close enough + the amount of mana it requires. True you're probably dead if you get hit by it but you can say that about most Noble Phantasms.

[Buffalobiian]

Saber is supposedly to have the best stats aside from Beserker. 5th war Lancer's ability was either limited to 5 a day.. or was completely unlimited.

[Xelbair]

that lancer was able to stand on equal ground in fight versus saber, and you dare to call him weak?

[Ryllharu]

One of Saber's major weaknesses is how strong her Noble Phantasm is. Excalibur uses a tremendous amount of her prana. She nearly disappeared right then and there when she used it in the 5th War (though a part of that was she was not being fed the proper energy by her Master). If Saber misses, she's drained the majority of her energy and is weakened.

A servant like either Lancer uses energy far more conservatively. Both need to get up close and personal to do substantial damage, but it is there that the two of them excel anyway. Contrast the two of them to the respective Berserkers. They use enormous amounts of their Master's energy, and fight in similar ways to the Lancers, up close. This way, while Lancer distracts a Servant, his Master could easily be using their own energy in a support role, the same way that Rin fought in the 5th War, and Irisviel assists Saber from the sidelines. Ilya, even with her tremendous reserves, was not (or did not) use that option, and Kariya can barely stand.

Excalibur is also so devastating that Saber feared to use it anywhere but on top of a building, and due to her noble nature, she wouldn't use it where innocents could get caught in the way. She would largely have to be forced via command spell to use it on the ground. The two Lancer's face none of those concerns.

[shinta|hikari]

And don't forget Avalon.

[Ryllharu]

And don't forget Avalon.

What about it? It isn't offensive.

[shinta|hikari]

Were we talking about offense only? I thought it was about who is stronger. Defense is included in that, especially if it is absolute.

[Ryllharu]

How much prana would it burn if Saber ever used it herself to protect her from a lethal blow or a noble phantasm as strong as Excalibur?

edit: I think my point stands. Saber's weakness is how strong she is.

Different classes require different strategies. One isn't weaker than the other. Archer and Lancer are best used by a supporting mage, Berserker requires only an energy source, Rider is mixed. Assassin requires demands someone intelligent, always thinking of strategy. Caster is best with a Master that acts as a protector, due to their class' weakness to direct confrontations. Saber works both ways, but this Saber is better off with just a battery, like Berserker.

[shinta|hikari]

I didn't refute your point. I just wanted to add to Saber's arsenal, because everyone seems to have forgotten about it.

[fireheart]

One of Saber's major weaknesses is how strong her Noble Phantasm is.

Isn't Archers Noble Phantasm stronger? In the end it doesn't matter what stats you have as it's all about the person wielding them.

Excalibur is also so devastating that Saber feared to use it anywhere but on top of a building, and due to her noble nature, she wouldn't use it where innocents could get caught in the way. She would largely have to be forced via command spell to use it on the ground.

Hasn't she already used it a couple of times on the ground in the 5th war?

I just wanted to add to Saber's arsenal, because everyone seems to have forgotten about it.

We haven't forgotten about it, it's just that she doesn't have it so there's no reason to add something to her arsenal that she doesn't have at this time).

[Ryllharu]

Isn't Archers Noble Phantasm stronger? In the end it doesn't matter what stats you have as it's all about the person wielding them.

If by Archer you mean Gilgamesh, then Enuma Elish (that functions the same way using his sword Ea) is stronger. But it doesn't by design use up most of his prana the way the Noble Phantasm Excalibur is meant to use most of Saber's. He is able to use it multiple times.

If you mean 5th War Archer...no. They don't even compare. UBW makes imitations only, they will always be weaker than the real thing.

Hasn't she already used it a couple of times on the ground in the 5th war?

If by "couple" you're including the one time against Gilgamesh right at the end, it wasn't the full power Excalibur. The only time she used it was the time she killed Rider. Her Noble Phantasm Excalibur is this.

As I said, Excalibur the Noble Phantasm, not the sword itself, is extremely draining on her prana. They are two different things. The sword just happens to be her weapon of the same name and the tool used to unleash her Noble Phantasm. The Noble Phantasm is the sword's ability to convert her magical energy into light and accelerating it as a focused beam. She nearly faded away the first time she used it in the 5th War, that's how strong it is compared to her reserves. Since she has a much more competent mage as her Master in the 4th War, it should be less of a problem.

[Buffalobiian]

If by "couple" you're including the one time against Gilgamesh right at the end, it wasn't the full power Excalibur. The only time she used it was the time she killed Rider. Her Noble Phantasm Excalibur is this.

I'm pretty sure Saber used Excalibur against Enuma Elish once or twice before using the Avalon combo. That's how we know about the power difference.

Isn't Archers Noble Phantasm stronger? In the end it doesn't matter what stats you have as it's all about the person wielding them.

I'm assuming you're talking about Gilgamesh. Stats rate Noble Phantasms too.

[David75]

.....but this Saber is better off with just a battery, like Berserker.

A battery and a very strong willed master.
Her will to fight, go head on into traps and even despising (almost) her master when he's a pure strategist like Kiritsugu really means trouble.

[Kraco]

Hasn't she already used it a couple of times on the ground in the 5th war?

Discounting the first optimal one aimed almost straight up, the second one was used at the top of a mountain, making it a pretty safe place.

[fireheart]

If by Archer you mean Gilgamesh, then Enuma Elish (that functions the same way using his sword Ea) is stronger. But it doesn't by design use up most of his prana the way the Noble Phantasm Excalibur is meant to use most of Saber's. He is able to use it multiple times.

Yeah I mean Gilgamesh.

If by "couple" you're including the one time against Gilgamesh right at the end, it wasn't the full power Excalibur. The only time she used it was the time she killed Rider. Her Noble Phantasm Excalibur is this.

Discounting the first optimal one aimed almost straight up, the second one was used at the top of a mountain, making it a pretty safe place.

Had to check to make sure but the second time looked like they were by the river that divides the city since they were on their way home when they ran into Gilgamesh which lead to Saber using Excalibur.

[shinta|hikari]

I really don't understand why you are nitpicking on the exact location. What matters to Saber is that other people don't get hurt.

[Fate Ataraxia spoiler. Highlight to read:]BTW, Enuma Elish was never used at even half of its power. It is a sword attack famed to be able to destroy the world once unleashed in full force, so even Gil never used it at maximum.
If you look at the damage stat gap between Excalibur (2nd most powerful) and Enuma, you will LOL.[End censor]