Fate/Zero

[Buffalobiian]

I wouldn't say that. He threw away Sakura, for sure, but he does give Rin undivided attention. Would he have been able to do the same for two daughters? Would one have developed resentment toward the other? (Though that happened anyway.)

He's a bastard, but presuming he didn't know exactly what Zouken intended for her, instead of two moderately well trained daughters, he gets to train one to the height of her abilities, and as far as he knows, the other is getting similar treatment. Then again, judging from Aoi's statements in the first episode...they probably do know.

I don't know if it is quite as simple as, "he chose to groom a successor instead of being a father." He was pretty fatherly to Rin in this episode. He was patient with her in a way he isn't to even Gilgamesh or Kirei.

(By the way, Sakura is much more powerful than Rin anyway. Tokiomi obviously threw away the wrong daughter if he was only after the best successor. The worms haven't consumed Sakura the way they did Kariya, and she's undoubtedly suffered as much as he has this past year. If that's not a testament to her potential, I don't know what is.)

From what you said, I can't really tell if you understood me.

What I meant was that Rin will be upset that Tokiomi chose to be a mage instead of a father regarding his treatment of Sakura. Being a mage, he only needed one successor anyway and so gave up one of his daughters to preserve the relationship between magi as well as "benefiting" the magical world by keeping another lineage alive. If he chose the role of a father, there is no way in hell he'd give up a daughter even if it meant giving less resources to the other one.

I think Rin will firstly be upset by his ways.. and then learn to accept it (regardless of whether she's comfortable with it or not).

[Yukimura]

I'll throw another name in to the hat for the don't care much for Rin camp and state that this ep was far off the average set by all the preceding eps and I didn't much like it for that reason. I did like all the elements of it that exemplified what I liked about the previous episodes, but Rin being cute or going on adventures has no place in my perception of what makes this a show above others to watch. My favorite aspect of this series has been its focus almost entirely on adults with adult problems and adult personalities, the only exception being Waver's coming-of-age story track which has been quite minor overall. The insight into Tokiomi's character as a patient and caring father and was a nice addition and while initially surprising seemed quite consistent with his established traits as there's nothing elegant about being a brute to your child/heir. However, I would have preferred his character development had come in some way that involved a more serious situation revolving around the adults in the show facing off against each other in some way.

Chibi-Rin is certainly cute and all but as far as I'm concerned her only positive value to this particular narrative is as a catalyst for the adults to develop. We did get some of that in seeing Kariya demonstrate his loyalty to the Tokiomi daughters and I was quite grateful for that but I would have gladly taken Tokiomi's development as an element of him having to save a kidnapped or otherwise endangered Rin and flashing back to teaching her or something.

All gripes aside though I know fanboyism helps makes our little corner of the world go round so for that reason I'm glad they included this ep. Now tons of Rin fanboys who might have otherwise ignored the show for lack of thei Zettai Ryouki heart throb will definitely shell out at least $90 for whichever BD this ep comes out on and the great circle jerk of fanwanking and artistry that is the anime industry might just continue a little longer.

[bagandscalpel]

I wouldn't say that. He threw away Sakura, for sure, but he does give Rin undivided attention. Would he have been able to do the same for two daughters? Would one have developed resentment toward the other? (Though that happened anyway.)

Clearly, Tokiomi threw away Sakura because he knew her REAL father is Kariya, hence, returning her to the Matou household was his idea of charity; he's such a good person! Also explains why Kariya is so fixated on Sakura's happiness and why she even LOOKS more like a Matou than Tokiomi's child.

/bullshit

[Archangel]

Clearly, Tokiomi threw away Sakura because he knew her REAL father is Kariya, hence, returning her to the Matou household was his idea of charity; he's such a good person! Also explains why Kariya is so fixated on Sakura's happiness and why she even LOOKS more like a Matou than Tokiomi's child.

/bullshit

If only

I can't help but feel Kariya's inevitable pathetic end will be insanely rage worthy.

[Buffalobiian]

This episode kickstarted my motivation to continue with Heaven's Feel from where I left off. Revisiting the characters, Kotomine's attitude towards life is really contrasting. I didn't notice it that much when FZ started off because everybody was serious, and he was played by the same familiar deep voice.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 11

[Lucifus]

Epicness - Unparalleled.

[Belial]

It's official, Rider is my favorite "servant" in a season with so many great ones

[Kraco]

Rider is indeed quite a man. And a real king, no doubt. His powers are nothing to laugh at, either. Despite the servants' superhuman powers in general, this also reminds of the simple fact that the self-confidence of a fighter matters greatly. Saber, her whole servant existence based on regret, can't really ever boast of pure self-confidence.

I'm starting to feel this show will reveal more of Saber's character than FSN (visual novel included).

The whole Assassin part in this episode felt so strange there had to be some reason behind it. I hope something less prosaic than simply to gauge Rider's powers.

[NeoCybercoin]

Iskander= Best Servant ever.

[David75]

Somehow after watching FSN, UBW and playing the FSN VN, I felt Gilgamesh and next war's archer noble phantasms were cheats.

In fact, it's only because I didn't know about that 4th war and Rider's noble phantasm. The norm set by the 5th war clearly is far below what we're experiencing in that 4th war. Awesome!

[Buffalobiian]

Iskandar's cool and all, but this episode lacked something that I had hope to see in him - tactics.

Alexandar the Great is best know for three things:

-Uniting a large territory
-Absorbing ideas and cultures from those he conquers
-His undefeated winning streak in battle and military aptitude

Then again.. it's a score of assassins vs over a thousand men - you don't really need to think much..

Too bad since I rather liked that female assassin's design too. The other thing that perhaps ticked me off from enjoying this episode to its max is the thought "geez, everyone and their mum has a Reality Marble.." going through my head.

Back to Assassin, we really need to find out more about their true potential. So far it's as if they're truly expendable. Either Kotomine really has no intention of preserving any combat prowess, the Assassins shown this episode are only a small fraction of their true number, or Assassin doesn't have a finite number of bodies and killing such bodies does not reduce his combat effectiveness in the long run.

[David75]

I was a little surprised female assassin did absolutely nothing to defend herself. Sure she had absolutely no ways of getting out of that alive, but in such dire situations you try to fight till the end... unless you're doing something else and are not really dying in the process or what you're doing is even more important than you dying without even fighting back.

[Buffalobiian]

I was a little surprised female assassin did absolutely nothing to defend herself. Sure she had absolutely no ways of getting out of that alive, but in such dire situations you try to fight till the end... unless you're doing something else and are not really dying in the process or what you're doing is even more important than you dying without even fighting back.

When you put it that way, it reminds me of Obi Wan vs Darth Vader.

edit: hmm, if not for the bloody decapitated body left in the desert, lol.

[Ryllharu]

I felt that Iskandar's Reality Marble was the dullest part of the episode. The dialogue between Kings was the most fulfilling segment of the episode, the combat serving only to show how shallow Iskandar is. Though he declared Saber not worthy of the title of king, his display is actually what made him lose.

I'll say up front that I agree more with Saber than I do with Iskandar. It is the duty of those who rule to serve their people. But Saber was indeed wrong in that a King's duty is only to serve their people. Their reward is as Gilgamesh implied...everything is theirs. But with that possession, also comes the responsibility to maintain it. For Gilgamesh, that means punishing any and all who would dare threaten that which is his, by thievery or by aspiration. I think that this discussion, and particularly the self-proclaimed ultimate king telling her that she wasn't entirely wrong, will help Saber grow into a stronger King (which from FSN, we know is actually possible for her due to the time loop).

Iskandar's desire to become human in this time is admirable. He wishes for a new world that he can conquer, a new challenge. He is not satisfied with resting on his past laurels the way Gilgamesh is, but on always seeking new comrades, new lands to make his own.

Gilgamesh acts as if everything is already his and will be for all time, but that argument has a flaw. Not everything existed when he ruled. The Grail certainly did not. It was created by the three main families that participate in the Wars, at least a couple millennia later.

What makes Iskandar lose that dialogue is that he is solely selfish. He does not think of others. Even Gilgamesh finds admirable qualities in others. Iskandar does not even allow his men to create their own legend, he demands that they serve him even in death. While that kind of loyalty is very commendable, a true King wouldn't bind down those who serve beneath them, simply as a means by which to maintain their position.

A true king would be able to stand on their own, like Gilgamesh or Arturia. Even if those beneath them left, their dominance would not waver. Well...Arturia's did, but her recognizing that failure in herself is what ultimately makes her stronger. Her desire for the Grail is to fix what she did wrong, which led more to suffering. The use of his Reality Marble shows that Iskandar cannot stand on his own.

So no, Iskandar is not the greatest of all time. His failings were plain to see from the contrast of Gilgamesh's quiet confidence and Saber's doubts. As it stands, Gilgamesh is indeed the most admirable. He has wisdom to do with his sickening levels of confidence. He didn't say as much as the others, but it was clear that he knew Saber's path made her stronger, because he knows of the burden she alone must endure, and that she is stronger for accepting it.

[Archangel]

Somehow after watching FSN, UBW and playing the FSN VN, I felt Gilgamesh and next war's archer noble phantasms were cheats.

In fact, it's only because I didn't know about that 4th war and Rider's noble phantasm. The norm set by the 5th war clearly is far below what we're experiencing in that 4th war. Awesome!

Rider's NB basically assure his dominance against any servants who simply rely on Anti-Unit Phantasms but it's nothing more than a flashy exhibit versus Saber's or Gil's Anti-Fortress attacks.

Emiya Archer is still pretty overpowered when you think about it, the only servants who ever really stood a chance against him were Saber and Berserker. This war's berserker seems like he would pose quite the challenge as well.

[Kraco]

I completely and utterly disagree with Ryll's post. And it's not because I'd be any Rider fan, as I'm not. Looking at real monarchy from our point of view is useless, it being nothing but academic history now, but back when it was in full power, monarchs certainly weren't operating on the basis of sacrificing themselves for their people. If anything it was like Iskandar said. In fact it's quite similar to our current economic system: You are free to exploit it as much as the law allows and get as rich as you can, and people should only look up to you and think: "If that person could pull it off and became a millionaire, I can as well!" The reality is and was of course different, but it doesn't make one side any more correct than the other. One thing is clear beyond doubt, though, just like Shirou taught Saber in the next war (and Iskandar tried to in this episode): Regret will produce nothing good and trying to change the past will produce even less. Neither are also fitting for a king.

Lastly, saying even Gilgamesh is better than Iskandar is just... Madness. Gilgamesh sees the good qualities in people because he considers those people his possessions and naturally you'd like to think your possessions are worth something. Nothing about Iskandar has given me the impression he would pettily hold people down. He thinks everybody should recognize him as the king - or, I reckon, challenge him for the title. If they do hold him as the king, he will support them in turn and they will be merry together. He even tries to encourage and listen to his worthless, cowardly master.

[Ryllharu]

Lastly, saying even Gilgamesh is better than Iskandar is just... Madness. Gilgamesh sees the good qualities in people because he considers those people his possessions and naturally you'd like to think your possessions are worth something.

Gilgamesh isn't crazy...yet. He's fairly pragmatic in F/Z. At the end of the episode, his statements imply that he knew Saber wasn't his...yet. Or more accurately, he didn't want her...yet. He found her stance to shoulder that much weight and responsibility as admirable, and stated that if she improved herself more, she might be worthy of his love.

The important part was that he did not disagree with her. He goes it alone, and liked that Saber was chivalrous enough to desire the burdens she holds. Gilgamesh recognized that you have to take the bad as well as the good if you want to possess it all, or to rule over your land. Iskandar doesn't.

[Buffalobiian]

One thing in legends to note too is that Iskandar was more of a warrior/leader than a king. He expanded his territories, but left ruling them to his generals pretty much. That tells you the scope of Kingship that he exercised, or at least liked to exercise.

I do not agree that Iskandar ties down his men. He allows them to follow him.

But overall I'm fairly much in agreement with Ryll. Those who have watched Gurren Lagann can think of the comparison between which character was more fit to be a "ruler", and which one was more fit to be a leader/warrior/inspirer.

15@Buffalobiian: I'm disappointed that so far he's shown himself to be less of a Lelouch and more of a Naruto
15@Buffalobiian: despite reading maps at the beginning

edit: just remembered.. Rider offered Assassin to join the dialogue, but only offered them the shitty stuff he found in Fuyuki. xD

[Kraco]

Perhaps it's because of being familiar with Gilgamesh from FSN already, but I can't trust anything he says, even though he's on some basic level above being a petty liar. But his last words to Saber simply made me think he thought Saber's internal struggles are fascinating to one such as Gilgamesh who has probably never doubted himself. In other words, he regards Saber a more interesting object to possess because she's not cut from the same tree. Iskandar is much closer to Gilgamesh and must be more boring consequently.

If you are thinking who's the best ruler, isn't Arturia the worst ruler of them all? Not only, in her own opinion, did she fail but she's also full of regret indicating she thinks she didn't do her best, despite her haughty words now. Such a windbag.