Fate/Zero

[shinta|hikari]

Indeed Kiritsugu was revealed to be that kind of character, but from the reputation he has, he should be able to do it easily. Even so, it is also a plus for his character to have a conscience, as long as he was certain Lancer's master would not leave the hotel. If Emiya had even the slightest doubt that he would escape (which he managed to do anyway), it would have been a really badly laid plan.

[Archangel]

Why is caster making such a big deal about Saber? Because they're both British? If Joan of Arc had been summoned i'd get it, but these 2 were separated by a few hundred years.

I still don't get it...

Does a legendary spirit who went mad in his final years come back mad as well? I thought they were summoned at the peak of their abilities.

[shinta|hikari]

Maybe he peaked when he went mad? Makes sense for a serial killer.

[David75]

It seems Caster has been summoned for the part of life of Gilles de Retz as a children massive serial killer.
That would be the peak of his abilities so to speak. That probably includes his deranged mental state.

As a side note, it is not clear if Gilles de Retz trully was a child murderer. But in the Grail war, heroes are summoned based on their fame, be it true or not it doesn't matter. What is important is the fame/importance of the image.
After all heroes from legends and even imaginary characters are summoned.

[Archangel]

It seems Caster has been summoned for the part of life of Gilles de Retz as a children massive serial killer.
That would be the peak of his abilities so to speak. That probably includes his deranged mental state.

As a side note, it is not clear if Gilles de Retz trully was a child murderer. But in the Grail war, heroes are summoned based on their fame, be it true or not it doesn't matter. What is important is the fame/importance of the image.
After all heroes from legends and even imaginary characters are summoned.

They come as their own selves though, if not Saber wouldn't be female.

[NeoCybercoin]

I wonder if Chuck Norris could be summoned......

[Kraco]

I wonder if Chuck Norris could be summoned......

Maybe if they make an ova that features the whole holy grail war over in 25 minutes.

[Archangel]

Maybe if they make an ova that features the whole holy grail war over in 25 minutes.

What would happen in the other 24 minutes?

[KrayZ33]

his summoning ritual.

[David75]

Chuck Norris can't be summoned by the Holy Grail, he is the Holy Grail

The Holy Grail war is called "Chuck Norris gets the Holy Grail" when Chuck Norris is there

etc?

They come as their own selves though, if not Saber wouldn't be female.

For some reason, Arturia is special as they explain in the next war. Like how she's summoned again with all her knowledge of the 4th war.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm with Ark that heroes are summoned based more on their true selves than their fame. Emiya-Archer wasn't exactly a shitty self-hating guy at his "peak", or would be be remembered so.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 07






----------------


Kiritsugu can create Reality Marbles.... Was that one step above Projection, which in itself is already a high level magic? Or was that related, but not dependant on such an ability? If anything the UBW arc should have covered such details, but I can't remember them.

I only remember the structure analysis -> reinforce -> projection pathway.

Good to see this episode clear up the relationship between Kiritsugu, Maiya and Iri. I'm not sure whether the discomfort Iri is feeling is due to the her being unable to be the most helpful person to Kiritsugu, or whether she is actually starting to feel threatened by Maiya and fears she'll lose her spot as Kiritsugu's most loved woman.

[Ryllharu]

Kiritsugu can create Reality Marbles.... Was that one step above Projection, which in itself is already a high level magic? Or was that related, but not dependant on such an ability? If anything the UBW arc should have covered such details, but I can't remember them.

I only remember the structure analysis -> reinforce -> projection pathway.

Projection is just high-level magecraft, Reality Marbles are near-magic (there is a distinction between the two), and Marble Phantasms are on average above even that, though there are certainly exceptions that make Reality Marbles stronger (UBW is one of those exceptions). Reality Marbles can potentially void natural laws that Noble Phantasms can't or something like that.

Projection and Reinforcement was a side effect of UBW's existence if I remember right.


It was nice to see a glimpse Kiritsugu as the worried, unconfident, semi-broken, almost-hero that he's described as in Fate/Stay Night. I thought that we wouldn't see him change so completely until this war was over and he saw the consequences of what he had done. Such as when he picked Shirou up from the devastation he had helped cause. Instead, we got to see that despite his cold-blooded killer attitude, he's actually terrified. His beliefs and attitudes that he would later instill in Shirou were always there. It makes him substantially more human, and a good contrast to the other mages like Kayneth who use mind control on humans to so readily use as pawns.

He cares deeply for Iris and Ilya, and if he had a choice, he would throw away a chance at the grail for their safety. He told Shirou he couldn't be a hero, but he only ever had to be a hero to those two (and sure, Maiya too).

I really liked the visual effect of the Einzbern manor's barrier being crossed on Iris and her corresponding reaction. It was very much an expression of surprise I was used to seeing on Ilya.

Rider was kind of a gag character this episode, but I did enjoy his jealous pursuit for a pair of pants so he could catch up with Saber.

[Xelbair]

Projection is just high-level magecraft, Reality Marbles are near-magic (there is a distinction between the two), and Marble Phantasms are on average above even that, though there are certainly exceptions that make Reality Marbles stronger (UBW is one of those exceptions). Reality Marbles can potentially void natural laws that Noble Phantasms can't or something like that.

Projection and Reinforcement was a side effect of UBW's existence if I remember right.


It was nice to see a glimpse Kiritsugu as the worried, unconfident, semi-broken, almost-hero that he's described as in Fate/Stay Night. I thought that we wouldn't see him change so completely until this war was over and he saw the consequences of what he had done. Such as when he picked Shirou up from the devastation he had helped cause. Instead, we got to see that despite his cold-blooded killer attitude, he's actually terrified. His beliefs and attitudes that he would later instill in Shirou were always there. It makes him substantially more human, and a good contrast to the other mages like Kayneth who use mind control on humans to so readily use as pawns.

He cares deeply for Iris and Ilya, and if he had a choice, he would throw away a chance at the grail for their safety. He told Shirou he couldn't be a hero, but he only ever had to be a hero to those two (and sure, Maiya too).

I really liked the visual effect of the Einzbern manor's barrier being crossed on Iris and her corresponding reaction. It was very much an expression of surprise I was used to seeing on Ilya.

Rider was kind of a gag character this episode, but I did enjoy his jealous pursuit for a pair of pants so he could catch up with Saber.

Reality Marbles create different world with different rules, landscape etc. - but they are crushed by the real world after some time. Marble Phantasms on the other hand change probability of weird shit happening - so it is not crushed by the real world as in case of Reality Marbles. Yet they usually don't create such large scale effects like Reality Marble.

[Archangel]

Projection magic and Reality Marbles are in no way related Bill, Shirou's ability to perform it and reinforcement was just a back door use of UBW. His ability isn't to create swords, it's to create a world of blades.

I have a feeling that the pistol Kiritsigu was wielding in the ending is going to give meaning to his nickname, magus killer.

Anyone else felt Saber underperformed this episode? In fact, it's odd how "the strongest servant" keeps getting overpowered by every single of her enemies. Kiritsugu should have summoned Nero

[Kraco]

I also felt like Saber is underperforming regularly. Maybe she isn't that tough, in the end, and it's just all hype surrounding her. Naturally I actually prefer it this way, because a war where one side rules unambiguously is boring (like gundams).

Kiritsugu's single-shot pistol is obviously some sort of mage killing weapon. It was brilliant if simple tactics to make an arrogant bastard like Archibald think he's safe after all the wasted mundane bullets. Although it would still be strange if Archibald so smoothly forgot he's fighting against somebody called a mage killer - for a reason obviously.

[Archangel]

Kiritsugu's single-shot pistol is obviously some sort of mage killing weapon. It was brilliant if simple tactics to make an arrogant bastard like Archibald think he's safe after all the wasted mundane bullets. Although it would still be strange if Archibald so smoothly forgot he's fighting against somebody called a mage killer - for a reason obviously.

Is he aware of who he's fighting though? He's still under the impression that Iris is Saber's master.

[Ryllharu]

I also felt like Saber is underperforming regularly. Maybe she isn't that tough, in the end, and it's just all hype surrounding her. Naturally I actually prefer it this way, because a war where one side rules unambiguously is boring (like gundams).

I think Saber isn't hype. She's a beast, but she's a little naive. In this kind of war against these kind of opponents, that's what hurts her the most. That's how Lancer got her in the first place. She didn't see through the obvious deception of dropping his second lance.

She's under-performing now because Lancer sliced all the tendons on her hand. She said it was only the thumb, but I think she has too much pride to admit how truly crippling of an injury it is. She was also very guarded and insistent in this episode when Kiritsugu started to brush off her capabilities. She was eager to show that she is still fully capable of beating another Servant in her condition, but unfortunately, she's missing a lot of the power behind her blows, and her ability to block properly. It's kind of a miracle that she could hold her own against Berserker's blows.

In power to weight ratio, Saber has the capacity to beat nearly every other Servant, including Gilgamesh. But only when she has both hands to properly wield Excalibur (both the sword and the Noble Phantasm itself).

Is he aware of who he's fighting though? He's still under the impression that Iris is Saber's master.

They all know who Kiritsugu is, by reputation alone. It wouldn't be hard to figure out who Irisviel's "bodyguard" is, it was well known he entered the family. They know he uses guns and bombs.

[shinta|hikari]

I think I mentioned this before, but Saber's noble phantasm, the fortress destroying projectile Excalibur, was sealed once her thumb was sealed. The move requires two hands. Basically, Saber is void of her noble phantasms right now. Imagine any of the servants she has fought so far and place them in a similar situation (Lancer without his lances, Berserker without his object transforming ability, Caster without that mana book) then you would understand why she looks weak.

I still don't like it though, even if I know why.

Saber can only beat Gil if she had all her noble phantasms, and that is under very favorable circumstances with Gil not performing at max (i.e. no chains).

[Buffalobiian]

She's under-performing now because Lancer sliced all the tendons on her hand. She said it was only the thumb, but I think she has too much pride to admit how truly crippling of an injury it is.

Saber was shown clenching her left fist this episode. Only her thumb looks disabled.

Kiritsugu's single-shot pistol is obviously some sort of mage killing weapon. It was brilliant if simple tactics to make an arrogant bastard like Archibald think he's safe after all the wasted mundane bullets. Although it would still be strange if Archibald so smoothly forgot he's fighting against somebody called a mage killer - for a reason obviously.

Archibald would be cocky because such an elaborate attempt to kill him failed thanks to his mercury familiar (the bombing move). Kiritsugu so far has only shown to use bombs, traps, shoot bullets that get blocked, and run in the face of Kayneth's monster. He sees no reason why Kiritsugu could hold his own in a confrontation against one of the Association's finest.

I'm still not entirely sure about all the Marble stuff.

Projection is just high-level magecraft, Reality Marbles are near-magic (there is a distinction between the two), and Marble Phantasms are on average above even that, though there are certainly exceptions that make Reality Marbles stronger (UBW is one of those exceptions). Reality Marbles can potentially void natural laws that Noble Phantasms can't or something like that.

Shirou's projection was different in that he could produce all his objects without the raw components. Rin said that all projection/magic has to use something to produce something else. The fact that Shirou could create something from nothing puts it at near-sorcery.

Projection and Reality Marbles are both about projecting your own thoughts into existence. I might have to replay UBW after this.. or find some source that will refresh my memory about this without too much inaccuracy or spoilers.

What's this Marble Phantasm?