Arrest for Dancing in Jefferson's Memorial

[Ryllharu]

Police officers could easily kill someone by spraying POLICE GRADE CAPASAISIN directly into someone's eyes, throat, and nose. It is a chemical WEAPON designed to cause crippling amounts of pain upon hitting mucus membranes. Not only is it a form of torture, but anyone sensitive to pain or shock could easily die from this. And WOW, and that you justify oppression with the notion that "oh, it's not that they kill you, just cause you pain"... Why would you ever say that in an argument.

'Fraid not Saph. The lethal dose of Capsaicin is 47.2 mg/kg. Most states ban a concentration of higher than 10% in a can, and most of those must be less than 60g (2 oz) total ingredients. So that's approximately 6g of capsaicin per can. Average weight in our country is an embarrassing 86.6 kg, so lets lowball it and go for 75 kg. Someone would need 3540 mg of Capsaicin to die, so the maximum police grade can would contain about two lethal doses. You'd have to spray the entire can down their throat, and you could only actually spray two people, which is not the point of using it as a deterrence weapon.

@Kraco: Because even in a stateless society, sitting on train tracks and killing yourself, the people you were with, the train conductor who didn't see you, and anyone else by the consequences of your actions is considered something along the lines of murder.

Eh? What? If you sit (alone) on the train tracks and try to stop a swiftly moving train carrying nuclear fuel/waste, and the engineers can't stop in time, it would be ruled a suicide. They might get in trouble for negligence, at worst. They know well ahead of time if there is going to be a crowd of protesters blocking the trains, to prevent that kind of tragedy.

I would not be surprised if there are other countries that don't care and just run them over, and probably have regulations in place to prevent that. I'm also willing to bet if you try that shit in the US, you'll get shot at. The NRC takes fuel and waste transport and the terrorist threat (or backyard atomic energy hobbyist threat) of obtaining any nuclear material very seriously.

[Sapphire]

'Fraid not Saph. The lethal dose of Capsaicin is 47.2 mg/kg. Most states ban a concentration of higher than 10% in a can, and most of those must be less than 60g (2 oz) total ingredients. So that's approximately 6g of capsaicin per can. Average weight in our country is an embarrassing 86.6 kg, so lets lowball it and go for 75 kg. Someone would need 3540 mg of Capsaicin to die, so the maximum police grade can would contain about two lethal doses. You'd have to spray the entire can down their throat, and you could only actually spray two people, which is not the point of using it as a deterrence weapon.

Uh, yeah, I know. But anyone sensitive to copious amounts of pain or shock could easily die from this.

Will answer the rest after work.

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If someone stepped in front of your car, challenging you, and you ran them over regardless, the lines between suicide and murder are blurred, I think. On one hand, in every way, you knew they were there and proceeded to drive the vehicle that caused their death. On the other hand, they threw away their own life by putting laying on train tracks. Lay in the sun, expect it to shine on you. Lay on a soil, expect ants to get on you. Lay on active train tracks, expect a train to pass through. Simple logic.

[Animeniax]

Uh, yeah, I know. But anyone sensitive to copious amounts of pain or shock could easily die from this.

Will answer the rest after work.

I get what you're saying. It's like the flu: someone who has a weakened immune system could die from the same flu that just makes most people feel like shit for a few days. So someone with a bad heart/respiratory problems could very well die if sprayed with pepper spray. I wonder how liable the police would be for the death in that situation?

[Kraco]

Sapphi's logic has totally lost me. It seems like when the police opposes protesters, everything is bad, but if a train driver mowed through a hundred protesters occupying the tracks, it'd be all good. As if there was a train driver who wanted to do such a thing. Is this talk nothing but her simple dislike for the police?

[Sapphire]

That's because you are equating two things that shouldn't be equated.

One is pepper spraying someone on the face (or otherwise using WEAPONS) because you don't want them to be on a sidewalk.

That is different from someone sitting on ACTIVE TRAIN TRACKS, which is like sitting in the middle of a busy a highway or on top of an airplane. If a plane comes, a car comes, or a plane decides to take off, you've killed yourself (or made someone murder you and possibly other people). You have put yourself in harm's way by placing your body in an area designated for transportation. This is obvious. Similarly, if someone steps on you because you're all over the sidewalk, that's your own fault.

Now, someone KNOWINGLY running you over while you're splayed across train tracks is iffy. Which is why I've said, for the third fucking time, in that case the the line between murder and suicide is blurred. (Clarification: I think such a thing should be determined on a case by case basis; I wouldn't be able to categorize every case like this as one or the other)

People who splay themselves across the highway are putting themselves in the position to murder other people by causing accidents and are basically committing suicide. Sitting on a sidewalk where people can easily walk around you without murdering themselves or other people is not justification to use force.

Yeah, I don't like the (current american) police. I don't like murderous, oppressive people. You've annoyed me by implying everything I'm saying is simply based off of some blind hated, as if my anger at this heinous act of violence should be disregarded.

[Kraco]

Sure the cases are different with the sidewalk one but not the one in the opening post of this thread. If anti-nuclear power/waste protesters are as good as dead in your eyes, surely memorial dancers can't be worth that much more.

[Sapphire]

Holy shit, what a straw man argument. You are irrational. (Okay, YOU'RE not irrational, but your argument is. My bad, that was rude of me).

Protestors dancing in front of an incoming train, or ANYONE dancing in front of a train is NOTHING LIKE dancing in a public space where there are no trains (ie SIDEWALK, MEMORIAL) and getting tazed/pepper sprayed by people.

I feel like you're trolling me:

category 1 - relatively safe:

sidewalk, memorial

Relatively safe until someone pepper sprays or body slams you, which is a criminal offense called physical assault.

category 2 - DANGEROUS, you will likely kill yourself and/or others:

edge of a cliff, middle of a highway, train tracks, on top of a plane.

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If what you are doing is dangerous to others you are then committing the criminal offense.

[Kraco]

I guess these waste train problems don't make it to the news on the other side of the pond, so let me assure you there is 0% chance the train would ever drive over the protesters. So, it's about as safe as chaining yourself to the locomotive door so that the train driver can't board the train in the first place to drive it anywhere. It's nothing but a nuisance to the train drivers and the society trying to deal with nuclear waste. It's not a safety issue per se, aside from standing a train full of nuclear waste in the middle of nowhere. Like Ryll said earlier, they know beforehand of the protesters, sometimes even so much beforehand they can try to use a different route (if available). So, in short, the only harm the protesters might face are, surprise surprise, the angry police officers.

To borrow the famous quote, I personally know a train driver and it's offending to even think they would be so worthless people they would drive over a mass of humans. Even driving over a lone thoughtless suicider can be an emotional burden.

[Sapphire]

I see, I see.

If the train tracks are private property, my opinions of forceful removal are completely different.

[Animeniax]

How did this discussion go from illegal occupation of a public space to sitting on train tracks? It'd be no different than sitting in the street. Keep things simple, you people.

[Ryllharu]

The European nuclear fuel train protests occur every single year without too many major injuries occurring. It's a real-life, non-American example, which is why it is being brought up for comparison. They illegally occupy public (or government?) tracks for days on end.

Actually...the most recent one started this year was just cleared today.
edit: video

[Sapphire]

What exactly are those protestors pissed about?

[Animeniax]

The European nuclear fuel train protests occur every single year without too many major injuries occurring. It's a real-life, non-American example, which is why it is being brought up for comparison. They illegally occupy public (or government?) tracks for days on end.

Ahh sou.

What exactly are those protestors pissed about?

Same thing the Keystone XL pipeline protestors are pissed about. No one wants hazardous cargo transported through their cities/farmland, too many chances for catastrophe. But we need that shit, so cut it out.

[Sapphire]

On another note, the occupy wall street protesters are hilarious.

"They're like FUCK WALL MART, FUCK TARGET, FUCK CORPORATIONS. GOOGLE IT."

[Animeniax]

I personally boycott Walmart and Google. I'll admit though sometimes the savings at Walmart are impossible to resist.

[Buffalobiian]

I personally boycott Walmart and Google. I'll admit though sometimes the savings at Walmart are impossible to resist.

As in every service provided by Google? They're good at what they do.

[Animeniax]

As in every service provided by Google? They're good at what they do.

I admit I do default to google for internet searches and use gmail.

[Carnage]

Why boycott Google?

[Animeniax]

Why boycott Google?

Same reason you'd boycott Skynet if it is ever introduced. We can't let them take over the world.