Hanasaku Iroha

[shinta|hikari]

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. I also understand her feelings, but that is no excuse for her behavior.

I don't think she is the world's biggest asshole either. Anyone who can care that much about cooking can't be a total ass (i.e. Gordon Ramsey).

[Kraco]

Why are you guys trying to understand and defend her situation? Many people are placed in much worse situations than Minko (i.e. Ohana), and they don't go around telling people to die.

It's only a hasty misconception people in worse situations (or from worse backgrounds) would be more rude. In fact, very often the opposite is true. I wouldn't be surprised if Minko was well-off otherwise but has been hitting her head against a wall in the ryokan for a while now, becoming increasingly frustrated. Naturally it doesn't justify attacking Ohana, but it could be psychologically explained in many ways. Besides, in the end she's only hurting herself with her actions, far more than Ohana, who seems to possess so formidable integrity she won't acquire damage from it. But such an attitude, or personality flaw, will hamper Minko's own chances of progress. Fortunately for her, Ohana plans to save her.

But then again, the whole situation of having stiff and cold hierarchy within the staff but fawning over the customers is stereotypical Japanese behavior, so Ohana is something of a rule breaker, I'd say.

(Gordon Ramsey is a total ass.)

[David75]

We have an incredibly Pyramidal social organisation here, not unlike many small businesses and even larger ones.
It works somehow, but everyone fears the ones higher and pass on the fear to those below.

I guess Minko vented some frustration on Ohana, because being the last to enter the ryokan, she's below her in that scheme...

Ohana will probably just change that, in her own way.
I also see Ohana being sucessful at teachning Minko how to cook better with the hard learned skills and work she already has capitalized.

It's strange how everything just happened so quickly. Ohana beign thrown like garbage into hostile ryokan to work as a slave, decides she will do with it, and tries to turn people around, everything so quickly it is quite strange. I do not really see a young teenage girl being able to smash well installed hierarchy quickly and turn it into something better and successful.

[fireheart]

Well the way I see it Minko is taking a lot of crap from that Tohru who seems to constantly knock her down and tell her how crappy her cooking and work in the kitchen is, at least from what we can see and it's not like he was the nicest guy around Ohana when they went out in the car. So Ohana one upping her in cooking and him telling her that Ohana might be better everything belittles her and she takes out her frustration on Ohana because she's new and she didn't really try to defend herself, she's basically just projecting everything onto Ohana to coop with her own situation (Says similar things to Ohana that Tohru says to her). All in all quite a normal action and realistic which also goes hand in hand how Minko didn't have much of a comeback when Ohana confronted her.

It may be stupid but I still find it realistic not everyone can take that much crap from their coworkers and not get that frustration out in one or an other way. I mean people have committed suicide from hearing how bad they are at their work everyday and that they're useless (which is basically what we see Tohru say to Minko all the time), add in the fact that she's basically always working and don't sleep a full 8 hours a day (most likely) and she's likely to blow up in someones face when given the chance. Besides if she could handle her situation without any problem despite getting chewed out constantly I'd find that more unnatural also it wouldn't give that much room for growing up. After all they're still high school kids with the whole coming-of-age theme.

It may not be an excuse but people do this all the time, it's like a parent that gets chewed out at work for a mistake and then yelling at their kid for not putting away one of their toys. Also what would be the ideal thing to do, be quiet and keep working? She lives at the inn meaning she probably don't have a family or not the nicest of families and who knows how much support she has from the coworkers considering Tohru. She's basically alone without support so keeping ones spirit up and keep working hard without letting it all get to you is next to impossible.

[Ryllharu]

@fireheart:

I hadn't thought about it that way, that Minko is taking it out on the new girl the same way that Tohru tears her down, and that makes a lot of sense. As others have said, it wasn't so much that Ohana cooks better than her (she seemed to be enduring that), it's that Tohru made the snide comment about it. Same goes for what you said about her lack of support. She also lives in the inn like Ohana now does, so she may be just as on her own.

It's strange how everything just happened so quickly. Ohana beign thrown like garbage into hostile ryokan to work as a slave, decides she will do with it, and tries to turn people around, everything so quickly it is quite strange. I do not really see a young teenage girl being able to smash well installed hierarchy quickly and turn it into something better and successful.

I wouldn't say that Ohana is going to smash the established hierarchy quickly (her battle axe of a grandmother), but she is certainly going to cut through the cold hostility and find herself a place at the ryokan. Perhaps she even make a budding friendship with her co-workers. Tomoe has already warmed up to her, Nako is just super timid and shy, and Minko can probably be tamed.

I can't say things have happened all that quickly. Even in a new job, it takes a bit before people feel comfortable enough with you as the new person before they start engaging you in their regular interactions. This is the only change Ohana is working on (aside from losing some her negativity and realizing her mother was wrong).

[RyougaZell]

I don't need an extensive analysis to say I don't like Minko. I just don't. Even if she is justified by whatever she has gone through.

Pervert signals on the horizon? Lol

[shinta|hikari]

She isn't justified. I think what everyone is saying is that she isn't randomly evil, but her actions still cannot be excused. I personally think she is just weak.

[fireheart]

She isn't justified. I think what everyone is saying is that she isn't randomly evil, but her actions still cannot be excused. I personally think she is just weak.

Well that's the thing you at least seem to hold it against her that she's weak, most people aren't strong enough to handle the kind of situation I described. It's part of what I think makes her realistically human no matter if you like her or not. Similar to what you were saying about her throwing a tantrum over Ohana's cooking and that you understand the feeling, I'm just guessing now but I don't think you know how it feels to love something and really try to improve yourself at it while someone tells you how crappy you are at it everyday nor seen what it can do to people. And even if you don't know you might be strong enough to endure it and come out on top but not everyone can, the amount of help you get here is that they suggest you switch workplaces instead of enduring it.

Guess I've just never understood why people would expect her to be strong and do the right thing when she's just another 16 year old, it feels like it's not allowed to be normal and make mistakes even in anime. Or did everyone else live a perfect life in their teenage years doing nothing but the right thing and persevered through every hardship without getting down nor getting any frustration out in any way?

Don't get me wrong I find her weak as well and think she's in the wrong, I just don't dislike her for it. Guess it's also because I draw parallels with schools where people just ignore problem children when they need help. And through all this I can say I hate people like Tohru, whom I think is far worse than Minko... well Ohanas mom might be worse.

[Kraco]

Or did everyone else live a perfect life in their teenage years doing nothing but the right thing and persevered through every hardship without getting down nor getting any frustration out in any way?

Don't get me wrong I find her weak as well and think she's in the wrong, I just don't dislike her for it.

Normal people are pretty weak. Only a few are strong, especially in the developed countries where your parents provide your food, clothes, and shelter and you don't need to fight for your life every day. In less fortunate places only the strong would survive. However, I personally like to watch anime where the characters are strong in some ways precisely because it's different from the reality.

Anyway, I haven't hated Minko even though I do think she's not justified. I find her interaction with Ohana hilarious: Ohana tries to do something good only to get the stock "die" reaction and is left standing with the dumbfounded expression time after time. Well, maybe my sense of humour is weird...

[Buffalobiian]

Anyway, I haven't hated Minko even though I do think she's not justified. I find her interaction with Ohana hilarious: Ohana tries to do something good only to get the stock "die" reaction and is left standing with the dumbfounded expression time after time. Well, maybe my sense of humour is weird...

No no, I find it cute and humorous too.

[shinta|hikari]

I dislike it when weakness drives people to hurt others. Like you said, a lot of people are weak, so I don't think Minko deserves leeway just because she is. If she was just weak and self-destructed, I won't hate her for it.

[fireheart]

Normal people are pretty weak. Only a few are strong, especially in the developed countries where your parents provide your food, clothes, and shelter and you don't need to fight for your life every day. In less fortunate places only the strong would survive. However, I personally like to watch anime where the characters are strong in some ways precisely because it's different from the reality.

That was the whole point of the post that people are weak and that I think it's weird to condemn someone for being so, as I said I draw parallels to schools and think she needs help but like you said Ohana will most likely save her. Well that I can understand that people want to see something different from reality at least.

I dislike it when weakness drives people to hurt others. Like you said, a lot of people are weak, so I don't think Minko deserves leeway just because she is. If she was just weak and self-destructed, I won't hate her for it.

Actually if she was weak and self-destructed that would have been worse imo, at least this way someone (Ohana) will help her though since it's anime it probably would have happened if she self-destructed as well. Anyway I don't think it's just her weakness I mean she does have some legitimate reasons to be angry at Ohana after all. There is the bad first impression Ohana left with destroying her plants, getting her criticized and slapped by the boss and there is some truth to the fact that it's Ohanas fault that the author guy can act as he does and yell at her. You don't just forgive a stranger for those things that fast even if she's in the wrong with her actions towards Ohana.

[shinta|hikari]

Actually if she was weak and self-destructed that would have been worse imo, at least this way someone (Ohana) will help her though since it's anime it probably would have happened if she self-destructed as well.

What I meant about the self-destruction comment is, you shouldn't intentionally hurt others just because you are weak. The alternative was just an example, not an ideal.

You are making judgments based on what might happen in the anime, not on what has happened. The result of Minko's wrong actions to the plot progression should not matter.

Minko has reasons to be angry at Ohana, but those being legitimate are debatable at best. All of Ohana's actions were out of good will, and while that does not absolve her of the negative results of those actions, she also does not deserve the type of animosity being directed towards her. This is even more true in the 2nd episode, when Ohana's actions did not even directly concern Minko. Minko was just jealous that she can't cook as well, and angry that she was compared to Ohana. She should actually be angry at the young chef for his lack of tact, not Ohana.

EDIT: I would also like to add that unlike Kraco, I actually do like weak characters just as much as I like strong ones. I just dislike Minko for being weak and an ass.

From a writing perspective, I think Minko weakness and overall bad attitude serves as an amazing foil to Ohana's absurd strength of character and good intentions. Ohana looks all the more heroic despite her constant blunders when placed beside Minko. If there were only nice and capable characters around, I think that I might not like Ohana so much due to her constant mistakes. The trial posed by the conquering of Minko also allows Ohana to show off her good qualities. So while I am not fond of Minko as a character, I think she is necessary for the story to be as good as it is so far.

[Ryllharu]

What I meant about the self-destruction comment is, you shouldn't intentionally hurt others just because you are weak. The alternative was just an example, not an ideal.

Minko has reasons to be angry at Ohana, but those being legitimate are debatable at best. All of Ohana's actions were out of good will, and while that does not absolve her of the negative results of those actions, she also does not deserve the type of animosity being directed towards her. This is even more true in the 2nd episode, when Ohana's actions did not even directly concern Minko. Minko was just jealous that she can't cook as well, and angry that she was compared to Ohana. She should actually be angry at the young chef for his lack of tact, not Ohana.

You've never met anyone who appears to be miserable and takes it out on everyone? I think that is one of the things that makes Minko such a realistic and strong character thus far. I've known at least a dozen people like that in my lifetime. It doesn't matter whether Ohana's actions were full of good intentions, everlasting love, or selfish desire to fit in. People like Minko as she is now just lash out anyway.

It's not a matter of whether or not Minko's reasons for being angry all the time are legitimate to you, they're legitimate grievances in Minko's mind, evidenced by her taking it out on Ohana in the first place. She's not going to take it out on Tohru because he is her superior. She takes it out on whomever she can.

The only way to fix the attitude of a person like Minko is precisely what Ohana is doing. You be nice to them anyway, over and over and over even if they don't deserve it. Ohana doesn't have that patience, and nearly getting into a car accident and realizing how scary it would be to die set her off, so she's going for her shortcut, which is to feed them food they hate.

I fail to see how this behavior makes Minko undeserving of any leeway over anyone else. It's not a matter of excuses one way or another. Much of Ohana's behavior is equally inexcusable. I find it disgusting that it would somehow be better if Minko was self-destructive in her loathing rather than the simple verbal abuse (and it barely qualifies as that) she's using. It makes it sound like you'd prefer it if she were nearly suicidal or some broken, pitiable KEY-series heroine.

[shinta|hikari]

You've never met anyone who appears to be miserable and takes it out on everyone?

When did I say that? I said I hate people like her, not that I haven't met any of them.

I fail to see how this behavior makes Minko undeserving of any leeway over anyone else.

What I said was Minko should not get more slack than other people. People should be treated equally. Do you disagree?

Much of Ohana's behavior is equally inexcusable.

I disagree. Making stupid mistakes due to being almost too earnest is a far cry from constantly telling someone to "die." This is probably one of the worse ways to verbally attack someone, since it negates their value completely, their existence. Minko also says it like she means it, so that makes it worse.

I find it disgusting that it would somehow be better if Minko was self-destructive in her loathing rather than the simple verbal abuse (and it barely qualifies as that) she's using. It makes it sound like you'd prefer it if she were nearly suicidal or some broken, pitiable KEY-series heroine.

I simply believe that people don't have the right to hurt others just because of their selfish reasons. I don't want to see anyone destroying themselves, but that is better than what Minko is doing, which is hurting others as she hurts herself at the same time. I also see it as more than just "simple verbal abuse" (like I mentioned above), and so does Ohana. She already knew what she said in the truck was terribly wrong even before they almost died in an accident. She was taking it back right after she said it.

[Ryllharu]

What I said was Minko should not get more slack than other people. People should be treated equally. Do you disagree?

No, but you seem to. You give Minko no benefit of the doubt while extending limitless pardons to Ohana's behavior.

I disagree. Making stupid mistakes due to being almost too earnest is a far cry from constantly telling someone to "die." This is probably one of the worse ways to verbally attack someone, since it negates their value completely, their existence. Minko also says it like she means it, so that makes it worse.

...and Ohana isn't tearing up plants the moment she arrives because she dislikes their appearance? She isn't ignoring her timid mentor and going off on her own? Not seeing if something is permissible before she does anything? Those aren't simply "stupid mistakes," those are potentially huge violations in a hospitality-centric business like the ryokan. What if she had injured or killed a customer because she thought Minko's bed was moldy?

Moreover, how do you even know that Minko means it? From the way she reacted when Ohana called her out on it, it looks like the opposite. By the look of surprise and confusion, she never considered anything like that until Ohana stated it. She was using it as a nasty rebuke, little else. The interpretation you put on it comes off extremely bombastic and self-righteous. Minko obviously didn't see it as anything different from calling someone and idiot or moron.

I simply believe that people don't have the right to hurt others just because of their selfish reasons. I don't want to see anyone destroying themselves, but that is better than what Minko is doing, which is hurting others as she hurts herself at the same time. I also see it as more than just "simple verbal abuse" (like I mentioned above), and so does Ohana.

She isn't hurting herself at all, she is only lashing out at others whenever she is hurt. It's quite different. If you really think that someone hurting themselves is somehow better than what Minko doesn't think of anything more than an insult, I wonder if you've ever known a cutter.

[shinta|hikari]

I give Minko the benefit of the doubt. I even said so before, so I'll just quote it:

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. I also understand her feelings, but that is no excuse for her behavior.
I don't think she is the world's biggest asshole either. Anyone who can care that much about cooking can't be a total ass (i.e. Gordon Ramsey).

I just think that from what has been shown in the show, Ohana has clearly good intentions. Minko's we don't know yet, and at the very least they aren't productive.

I also said that Minko says it like she means it. I don't know if she does and I agree that she probably doesn't, but she appears to, and that is what Ohana sees as well. It isn't only my interpretation. It is implied that Ohana saw it like that as well. I personally think that some words should not be said regardless if you mean them in the worst sense (i.e. racial slurs, sexist terms), but that is just me.

I think Kraco stated it well enough when he said that Minko is also hurting herself with what she is doing so I won't add to it. I also think you took the term "self-destructive" to the extreme. Your comparison takes a really bad case of self-destructive behavior and compares it to the best case scenario for verbally wishing another's death. I actually only had self-blame, and light depression in mind when I said self-destructive.

Anyway, I really don't want to argue about this anymore. I think the root of the disagreement is from the negative value I place in the insult "Die," so if you don't see it as much more than saying "idiot" and if you believe Minko is the same, I can accept that. It would certainly better my view of her if that were the case.

[animus]

I don't know about you people, but if someone tells me to die and I'm not friendly enough with them to joke around like that or I just met them, I'd have punched a bitch.

[fireheart]

You are making judgments based on what might happen in the anime, not on what has happened. The result of Minko's wrong actions to the plot progression should not matter.

It's not something that might happen, in my eyes Minko needs a friend or someone that reaches out to her and that's what Ohana have been doing since the first episode and not something that she might do in the future. So I find it quite relevant but like I said Ohana probably would have done it regardless of Minko lashing out or not.

Minko has reasons to be angry at Ohana, but those being legitimate are debatable at best. All of Ohana's actions were out of good will, and while that does not absolve her of the negative results of those actions, she also does not deserve the type of animosity being directed towards her. This is even more true in the 2nd episode, when Ohana's actions did not even directly concern Minko. Minko was just jealous that she can't cook as well, and angry that she was compared to Ohana. She should actually be angry at the young chef for his lack of tact, not Ohana.

I don't think her good will means she doesn't deserve any animosity but that's not what you said either. But as for the reason being debatable, ruining her plants and getting her in trouble at work and slapped are pretty clear in my eyes. And her actions in the second episode add more fuel to the fire, it's barely been a day since Minko got slapped and a customer is complaining to her because of Ohana so it does directly concern her because she has to deal with the consequences.

So if we count out the fact that she tells Ohana to die (Which I do agree is bad), are the things she tells her justified?

But I do completely agree that she should take it up with Tohru.

Ohana has clearly good intentions.

She deserves credit for trying but as stated in the anime itself with "careless work does nothing but get in the way" or as other says the best of intention can lead to the worst outcomes. But she tries and that's a good thing but more importantly learns from her mistakes which people have pointed out to her. In the end I do agree that people shouldn't hurt others for their own selfish reason and it'd be great if we lived in such a world.

I don't know about you people, but if someone tells me to die and I'm not friendly enough with them to joke around like that or I just met them, I'd have punched a bitch.

I can't remember anyone actually telling me to die so can't comment on it but I probably wouldn't punch the person, it'd be stupid of me to go to jail or pay fines to that person because of it. But mostly likely I wouldn't feel good and be angry if it happened.

Though I still think most people should rage against people like Tohru instead.

[shinta|hikari]

If she didn't tell her to die, and just told her to buzz off or call her a meddling idiot, I wouldn't dislike her nearly as much. I still won't like her though, since there isn't really much to like yet.