Bleach 309

[Shadow Skill]

NOw that it ended like this. Since the beginning Ichigi's power has grown fast and strong every time he found his resolve. I think he will regain his Shinigami powers in much the same way.

Without Zangetsu keeping his hollow powers in check, I have to wonder about that episode in Hell and how Ichigo will have nothing holding his hollow powers from taking over.

So I say some of you are right, he may learn to master that part of himself now. Who knows, maybe by doing that it might revive his Shinigami powers as well.

Probably pointless to speculate at this point. Makes me wonder why they mentioned thr Spirit/Soul King now. :/

[DarthEnderX]

Ichigo didn't seem to feel any of those power up's effects.

Granted. But if one assumes the Hougyoku's ability to evolve Aizen doesn't have a limit, 5 or 6 evolutions later Aizen might have actually been able to hurt him. Better to end it before it gets to that point.

Without Zangetsu keeping his hollow powers in check, I have to wonder about that episode in Hell and how Ichigo will have nothing holding his hollow powers from taking over.

I think Zangetsu stopped holding back Hichigo awhile ago. Probably around the time Ichigo did his Visored training. Ichigo just needs to learn to control his Level 2 Hollow form now.

[Endrance]

Granted. But if one assumes the Hougyoku's ability to evolve Aizen doesn't have a limit, 5 or 6 evolutions later Aizen might have actually been able to hurt him. Better to end it before it gets to that point.

That might have been correct and acceptable if Ichigo didn't literally self-destruct by clinging to that assumption. Or if Aizen was gradually getting stronger and Ichigo was in a pinch he wouldn't get out without going into Chiaotzu mode. It would have been a good time to make Ichigo use it when Aizen got at or above his level and Ichigo needed to kill Zangetsu for a huge power up (also in terms of epicness). If it was just a general, but stronger Getsuga with less side effects I'd see your point. Look at Naruto and the Gai VS Kisame or the Rock Lee VS Gaara fights for example. They had to use their self-destructing techniques, because their enemies forced them to either because they were too strong or driven them into a corner. Ichigo may have suspected that Aizen would be almost impossible to defeat without multiperforating him, but he didn't even try to hit him with a normal Getsuga and sliced him only ONCE. He even got out easily of the circle prison thing of Hollow Mask Aizen. He risked everything without even thinking about weighing his options and put all his eggs in one basket WHILE he was dominating.

And this just made the episode that much less plausible and more importanly, epically unepic when it could have been the most epic fight of all in Bleach, which it clearly wasn't. IMO, it wasn't even final clash worthy.

[Vorlath]

Pretty awesome episode. I like how Ichigo didn't waste too much time using the Final attack. He already waited too long as it was since Aizen's power up had already been enough to withstand Ichigo's final attack, but luckily Urahara sealed Aizen away. I'm actually pleasantly surprised Ichigo didn't wait longer. It goes against a convention of waiting until you need Bankai to actually activate it. We saw it with the Espadas for example. And Ichigo actually said it up front that he needed to end this quick.

I agree it's a nice point to end it. Still, I'm curious about that talk about the Spirit King.

[DarthEnderX]

That might have been correct and acceptable if Ichigo didn't literally self-destruct by clinging to that assumption. Or if Aizen was gradually getting stronger and Ichigo was in a pinch he wouldn't get out without going into Chiaotzu mode. It would have been a good time to make Ichigo use it when Aizen got at or above his level and Ichigo needed to kill Zangetsu for a huge power up (also in terms of epicness).

But as it was, he barely did enough damage with the FGT to trigger Urahara's plan. If he's waited until Aizen evolved to be almost as strong as him, it might not have even done that much.

Conversely, if he'd started the fight with the FGT instead of letting Aizen evolve twice first, it might have actually obliterated him and he wouldn't have even needed to rely on Urahara.

I agree it certainly wasn't the most tense final showdown as a result, but I think he actually avoided one of the big complaints people always have with Shounen manga. The way characters could easily win fights in one attack if they skipped right to their big attack, but characters always start with their weakest attacks and work their way up during a fight, until, their most powerful attack always ends up being their "desperate final attack".

To me, this felt like Ichigo being uncharacteristically genre savvy going, "You know what, this guy has already crossed the bishounen line like twice, I know nothing but my final attack is going to work, I'm just gonna skip to the end."

[Endrance]

But as it was, he barely did enough damage with the FGT to trigger Urahara's plan. If he's waited until Aizen evolved to be almost as strong as him, it might not have even done that much.

Conversely, if he'd started the fight with the FGT instead of letting Aizen evolve twice first, it might have actually obliterated him and he wouldn't have even needed to rely on Urahara.

Yea, they can say that now. But Ichigo didn't even try to do something with his normal powers. He parried some uber weak blows to him, was completely unaffected by Aizen's space and time changing forbidden Kido, sliced Aizen once and saw how he regenerated once. And nobody knew how far the power marble would push Aizen. Kubo could just have written suddenly, that Aizen's brain couldn't comprehend the sheer power anymore or the marble had it's limits, due to the people's souls inside it rebelling against Aizen or some shit.

Then he went straight to owning himself while dominating - IMO it looked like he could have halved Aizen easily with a normal Getsuga and weaken him without fucking himself up - without even testing if he could have done that without losing his powers immediatley after that and being as intimidating as a rabbit.
Ichigo didn't know if Aizen would be defeated by blowing himself up. Ichigo couldn't just use it, in a logical way, because he was the only hope of defeating Aizen and if he lost all of his powers there would be nobody left to stop Aizen. The only things Ichigo knew were that he was way stronger than Aizen and that Aizen regenerates and evolves under unknown circumstances, also he knew that if FGT fails to stop Aizen from regenerating (why exactly would it do that again?) he will fail. So um.. if I was Ichigo I'd try to avoid using it until I really see no other way out. The point is that Ichigo knew that he'd die if he didn't defeat Aizen with his strongest attack, but he didn't know if he could do so without using it.
Bringing Urahara there at the end was just a very very cheap way to solve or maybe that's not even the right word, rather "sideline" as an attempt to make us ignore this huge logical hole to me. Now don't tell me Kubo intended to tell us that Ichigo's back up plan was to believe in Urahara's (who he saw being utterly defeated by a weaker version of Aizen before) intellect and that he'd solve everything if he'd fuck up. That's just dumb.

I'm talking about the fundamental basis of producing the episode and the way Kubo wrote it. I'm outside of the inner logic of the anime. My point is that this episode missed out alot of potential. To me and everyone else I talked about this episode but a few people on these forums it looked insanely rushed and rather awkward to use the final self-destroying resort as early as this at such a really bad cost-benefit ratio (Ichigo didn't know about most of those "inside anime" facts you're listing). And I'm not saying it was just short for Bleach or a shonen in general, it was even short for almost any kind of genre. Alot of series even go as far as making a TV Movie for the final episodes and investing alot of money into them. To me, Bleach clearly failed at giving the ending of the "Aizen saga" credit. It wasn't complete garbage such as the ultimate friendship filler power in Soul Eater, but it wasn't exactly noteworthy either and had as many holes in it as a swiss cheese. At least I wont remember this episode fondly.

I agree it certainly wasn't the most tense final showdown as a result, but I think he actually avoided one of the big complaints people always have with Shounen manga. The way characters could easily win fights in one attack if they skipped right to their big attack, but characters always start with their weakest attacks and work their way up during a fight, until, their most powerful attack always ends up being their "desperate final attack".

Only people who don't usually watch much anime or especially shonen and demonize the genre without even knowing anything about it talk like that. I've never had anyone knowing what he was talking about say that to me. The main criterions are the believability (in connection of making sense in their own world concepts, measuring it by only realistic standards is foolish) of scenes and decisions characters make, as well as the logic behind those and of course the epicness that comes with all of it.

And well, if there are people with decent arguments for this I can't see out there, they would be proven wrong by this episode.

[DarthEnderX]

Only people who don't usually watch much anime or especially shonen and demonize the genre without even knowing anything about it talk like that. I've never had anyone knowing what he was talking about say that to me.

Well I hear it all the time. Though you seem like the type where the instant someone disagreed with you you'd label them as someone who "didn't know what he was talking about", so yes, I'm sure no one you thought knew what they were talking about has ever mentioned it to you.

You complain when Kubo's story is at it's most cliched shonen tropes, and the one time a character's actions don't adhere the stereotypes, you label it as anti-climactic.

So when Kubo is being formulaic, you bitch, and when he's bucking the trend, you bitch. You're just making up shit to bitch about.

[Vorlath]

But Ichigo didn't even try to do something with his normal powers.

Yeah he did. He slashed Aizen and it did virtually nothing. He could block anything Aizen did and may never have been in any danger himself. But that's a completely different scenario than being able to defeat Aizen.

IMO it looked like he could have halved Aizen easily with a normal Getsuga and weaken him without fucking himself up - without even testing if he could have done that without losing his powers immediatley after that and being as intimidating as a rabbit.

We don't know that he's able to produce the regular Getsuga Tensho anymore. Once he's merged with his Zampakutu, it's possible that this is what converts Getsuga Tensho into the Final version of it. We just don't know. Besides, it's a moot point. His normal Getsuga Tensho wouldn't have been enough. We saw what the final version did... so by relative comparison, you wanted Ichigo to putz out.

So um.. if I was Ichigo I'd try to avoid using it until I really see no other way out.

And by that point, the irony of your comment destroys the Universe because Ichigo would have waited too long and FGT wouldn't work at all.

The point is that Ichigo knew that he'd die if he didn't defeat Aizen with his strongest attack, but he didn't know if he could do so without using it.

Yes he did. It was made pretty clear Ichigo could sense Aizen's power even before he got FGT. Also, he attacked him and Aizen regenerated right away.

My point is that this episode missed out alot of potential.

Bleach missed out on potential? You're about a year or two too late. Pick a number and get in line, buddy. But the last two episodes were great.

And I'm not saying it was just short for Bleach or a shonen in general, it was even short for almost any kind of genre.

Ichigo said he was going to end it in an instant. He wasn't going to wait around for something to mess up. So after Aizen did whatever he could to stop him, Ichigo took his opening.

At least I wont remember this episode fondly.

Haters gonna hate. You've spammed nearly every second comment here. We all know you didn't like it. Ok, fine. So what?

[Shadow Skill]

Maybe they wanted 19 minutes of talk and 1 minute of action, like everyone favorite action anime "Dragonball Z" :P

[Endrance]

Well I hear it all the time. Though you seem like the type where the instant someone disagreed with you you'd label them as someone who "didn't know what he was talking about", so yes, I'm sure no one you thought knew what they were talking about has ever mentioned it to you.

We're back at personal analyses again? Fine.
You can't deny how totally obvious it is that you base your opinions on assumptions of what characters could have thought and based their actions on, usually without taking the author view into account. I base my opinions on what I see and how something appears to me when I watch it. You're the type who likes games and anime for their visuals and mostly ignore major logical holes when you see them in your personal review. You'd give Bleach at least a 8/10, ignoring all of the hundreds of bad filler episodes, ignoring all logical holes you have noticed, but simply forget on purpose, because you love being a fanboi, but taking such self-defeating matters as forgiving bad and stretched episodes due to bad planning and bad storywriters into account AND forgiving them for being bad, because they're not the original. Way too many people do that.
And you cling to close-minded standards instead of thinking yourself and being open minded when it comes to fantasy stories. Look below.

You complain when Kubo's story is at it's most cliched shonen tropes, and the one time a character's actions don't adhere the stereotypes, you label it as anti-climactic.

So when Kubo is being formulaic, you bitch, and when he's bucking the trend, you bitch. You're just making up shit to bitch about.

That's putting too much thought into my views. I simply bitch when something is bad. Too short final episodes are bad. Extremely illogical decisions of characters at totally untimely points are bad. That's about it.

Alot of angry fanboi stuff

Now that's cute.
I criticize Kubo's writing and the way it was converted into the anime and you're trying to convince me with logical holes, inner anime logic and arguments such as "well we saw what the Final Getsuga did, he sure wouldn't have been able to do anything with his normal Getsuga" or the DarthEnder taken out of nowhere assumption type to make a point "maybe he couldn't even use the normal Getsuga anymore after fusing with his Zanpakuto, who knows?" or totally delusional shit that doesn't make any sense like "Ichigo said he would end this in an instant, so Kubo was forced by Ichigo do write it this way". What kind of asinine arguments are this? As an author of a fantasy based story, you can pretty much write anything you want. I already gave you some examples. Kubo could just have written that Ichigo perforated Aizen with his Final Getsuga, the Hogyoku leaving Aizen and trying to take over Ichigo by itself cause he's the stronger individual after a worthy clash without losing his powers where power ups and the power of will are needed to defeat someone over 3 episodes, instead of dominating over the length of one and deciding out of nowhere to use explosion with full HP, because one Tackle just didn't do the job. The power marble could just have rebelled against Aizen earlier for a certain reason, such as actually having some kind of logical mind (due to the souls) and deciding against Aizen due to his course of actions or just being too powerful for Aizen's mind to comprehend, giving him a disadvantage. He could also just have done it the way he did it, but letting Ichigo know about Urahara's trap. Urahara could just have appeared earlier whispering "Hey Ichigo, there's a trap on Aizen that will activate if you only manage to slice him into two halves". What's the deal? That way Ichigo's decision wouldn't have been totally illogical (but the episode still unepic if that'd have been the only thing changed).
There is no place for scientific and reality based comparison inside (but of course outside) a fantasy story - you could argue about this the whole day with no result whatsoever, because there are very few standards to cling to - but there's a few iron rules you shouldn't step over. One of them is to make the final stage epic. This episode was a graphical blinder at best. It was just way too short, rushed in actions and those actions were full of logical errors you simply cannot deny (which you still will), because we all saw it.

I agree the last episode was awesome (not just for Bleach, but in general - I put the new Tensa Zangetsu theme on my iPod right after watching it), but this almost went straight back to the quality of the war shit arc fights (except for the Yamamoto fight of course). It wasn't total garbage, but it wasn't worthy of being called a decent final fight episode either.

[DarthEnderX]

We're back at personal analyses again? Fine.
You can't deny how totally obvious it is that you base your opinions on assumptions of what characters could have thought and based their actions on, usually without taking the author view into account. I base my opinions on what I see and how something appears to me when I watch it. You're the type who likes games and anime for their visuals and mostly ignore major logical holes when you see them in your personal review. You'd give Bleach at least a 8/10, ignoring all of the hundreds of bad filler episodes, ignoring all logical holes you have noticed, but simply forget on purpose, because you love being a fanboi, but taking such self-defeating matters as forgiving bad and stretched episodes due to bad planning and bad storywriters into account AND forgiving them for being bad, because they're not the original. Way too many people do that.

I don't think Bleach is nearly as good as you think I do.

I just think it's got enough problems without people inventing problems that aren't there because they just want to rant.

[antiravage]

The most important fight in bleach ends in less than two episodes. Awesome.

[Endrance]

I don't think Bleach is nearly as good as you think I do.

You haven't only said once in these forums that you think you're one of the only people on here who still likes Bleach, regardless of it's hundred upon hundred of issues after the Rukia saving arc when it started going downhill. While the soul society arc and everything before it is easily a 8/10, I wouldn't give anything (but a few exceptions) afterwards a 4/10 or greater. I kept watching it (skipping the fillers), because I hoped it'd maybe go back to it's original quality in the next arc or even just the next episode (which happened twice), but everytime Kubo did one thing right, he made five major mistakes in the next episode. After the last episode (which gets a 8/10 in epicness and 7/10 as an episode), I hoped he at least wouldn't fuck up the ending and most important fight, but he did. And not too short on that.

I just think it's got enough problems without people inventing problems that aren't there because they just want to rant.

I have no intention of ranting, I only say what I see. I also write reviews of the most anime and games I play once I'm done with them and I'm just as critical there as I am here. I just think that bad games and anime deserve to be hurt back. That's the only reason I point major issues out. Again. This fight was far too short. I'm not going into details again, but this episode was like a swiss cheese without the cheese related to logic. And because of that, a complete disappointment for the most important fight in the anime as a shonen, because it made scenes that should have been epic look like a farce. Watch Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Seriously, Simon should have appeared like this he did with Rossiu to Kubo right when he was about to produce the material for this unworthy episode (or even better right after the soul society arc to show him what's important). Or look at Naruto and the Akatsuki/Konoha clash. That's how it's done. This is just a little better than the Soul Eater ending, at best. And that's nothing greater than a 3/10.

[Jessper]

I kept watching it (skipping the fillers), because I hoped it'd maybe go back to it's original quality in the next arc or even just the next episode (which happened twice), but everytime Kubo did one thing right, he made five major mistakes in the next episode. After the last episode (which gets a 8/10 in epicness and 7/10 as an episode), I hoped he at least wouldn't fuck up the ending and most important fight, but he did. And not too short on that.

So I imagine we won't see you around here anymore. What a sad day.

I have no intention of ranting, I only say what I see. I also write reviews of the most anime and games I play once I'm done with them and I'm just as critical there as I am here. I just think that bad games and anime deserve to be hurt back. That's the only reason I point major issues out.

I'm sure Kubo is in a lot of pain about these incredibly insightful and ground breaking posts you make. Make sure to keep kicking when you get him down.

[UChessmaster]

Guys, i suggest not to argue with him, just ignore him like i do.

[Logrus]

Would be awsome if the hougyouke (wont ever spell it right) swaps to Ichigo now and sees him as its master, restores his powers and with his old power plus the hougyuko. Though dont see why that would be necessary unless Ichigo gets a reason to fight the spirit king for some lame crap again.

Perhaps there's something else to talk about instead of voicing "common-sense" critique of something we all know is a stab at the balls every week.
Example: What could the spirit king possibly be if Aizen who i think allowed the Hougykou to (with no better term or word) "rape" him so that he could stand a chance to kill it.
My money is on some glutton es swine/maggot like thing that eats all the spiritcrp in the world and farts sunshine and rainbows on the others.

[Killa-Eyez]

As these past two episode were certainly lacking the same action packed value as the Grimmjow VS. Vichigo showdown holds, some nice visual treats were shown. It's abrupt and confusing ending was rather refreshing seeing as it's still an open one. I'm keeping my hopes up!

I just wonder when Ichigo's spirit form will go back into his body what effects it will bring.

[DarthEnderX]

I actually did just realize something that bugs me.

So he learned the FGT, which basically turns him into a ninja, uses a deathmove, then loses his powers...

Why the hell was he so strong normally then? Did just LEARNING FGT make him 100x stronger?

This is just a little better than the Soul Eater ending, at best. And that's nothing greater than a 3/10. .

Well sure, Soul Eater's ending is filler...

I've said it before, but I basically consider Bleach to be on par with DBZ. I think Naruto and Bleach are both much better shows. But I still consider Bleach to be "good".

Though dont see why that would be necessary unless Ichigo gets a reason to fight the spirit king for some lame crap again.

You honestly think Ichigo WON'T be fighting the spirit king at some point?

As these past two episode were certainly lacking the same action packed value as the Grimmjow VS. Vichigo showdown holds

That's because Grimmjow actually stood a chance of winning.

[Logrus]

You honestly think Ichigo WON'T be fighting the spirit king at some point?

Of course he is that's what i said though the reason will be an extremely lame one, but i wrote that in a weird way so i understand your confusion. But the question was: does the Houygyuko take Ichigo as it's master now and lets face it the spiritking must be "omega shenron" since for to rocket to and past "captain level" even for Kubo must have its reason and those former "Captains of the 11 bla bla" that ascend to a higher post as defenders of the spiritking will be the new arrancar he has to face. And add a little Shonen drama to the mix etc.

[Vorlath]

So he learned the FGT, which basically turns him into a ninja, uses a deathmove, then loses his powers...

Why the hell was he so strong normally then? Did just LEARNING FGT make him 100x stronger?

We don't know the details yet. Haven't watched the next ep yet if it's out. But I thought he merged with Zangetsu. I also thought that Zangetsu was actually both Zangetsu AND Hichigo (so there could be lots of power to be had there). It's also possible he could only stay in such a state for a certain amount of time and decided to train as much as possible before leaving the tunnel. One thing I'm curious about is if he still had his regular GT. I don't think he did.