Bleach 293

[Endrance]

There comes the hobby-psychologist. I guess I should be honored how often I get in the focus when visiting forums. In about every third post I did in the 127 MMORPG forums I've played the game from someone asked me why I was even there after reading my rather harsh criticisms. Every thread needs one I suppose. But before I respond properly I have some questions. Do you care, because you're interested my person? Or do you care, because you intend to make a point (for exmaple in order to defend the anime you like)? That's important information, because it might change the response you receive.

[Jessper]

There comes the hobby-psychologist. I guess I should be honored how often I get in the focus when visiting forums. In about every third post I did in the 127 MMORPG forums I've played the game from someone asked me why I was even there after reading my rather harsh criticisms. Every thread needs one I suppose. But before I respond properly I have some questions. Do you care, because you're interested my person? Or do you care, because you intend to make a point (for exmaple in order to defend the anime you like)? That's important information, because it might change the response you receive.

Ah, I don't care to defend Bleach, there are certainly plenty of issues with it. Though I watch the show because I enjoy the universe it is set in, and I find it entertaining. I don't watch it for the story, I read books for immersive and intriguing stories.

I suppose it was the way I was raised but I can't wrap my head around the idea of complaining about something when you have options to fix it (don't watch). Complaining is only useful if someone with the ability to cause change is listening, I can say with almost certainty that it is not the case here. Unless of course you just need to get something off your chest, but the way you're going about it in that case is a bit silly.

Additionally, being an attention whore is not something I would take as a compliment.

It is generally known, that he who expects much will be often disappointed. Enjoy life for what it is, rather than what you want it to be.

[Endrance]

In that case the answer you're searching for is already in one of my first posts in this thread.
Besides, if what you imply was true, then no one would be watching/reading harsh reviewers such as spoony, avgn and the whole lot of them. I'm also writing reviews by the way. And the term parody wouldn't even exist.
On top of that you got it wrong. I do enjoy Bleach in a similar manner as Arch does. What you quoted does imply alot of things, but it doesn't certainly mean that I'm not enjoying it in my own way. I do not genuinely like plot holes the way that Chessmaster (I wonder?) guy does, but I find it insanely amusing what Bleach mutated into. Every episode has pseudo-morals that are totally out of context, a huge plot hole at least every two key scenes... and alot of different things I find to enjoy about it. It's almost making a parody of itself, which again in certain ways is really interesting. I'm even currently rewatching the episodes together with a friend for certain reasons. On top of that still finding people who seriously seem to like the anime always gets me some entertainment out of it.

I'm not essentially complaining and surely not for nothing. I gain something by posting the way I do. You can be sure that if I wasn't, I wouldn't even view this forum.


I'm also not generally interested in personal justification topics on anime or game forums, so be happy I even responded.

[DarthEnderX]

I never said he was, but he was infused with mako AND Jenova Cells just the same as any SOLDIER after the occurrences in the Nibel reactor.

Except Cloud is never IN SOLDIER! Zack dies right after the Reactor incident, and that's when Cloud has his mental breakdown and LEAVES Shinra and starts thinking Zack's backstory is actually his backstory. He never has a chance to be in SOLDIER.

You really need to reread your FF7 timeline or something.

That's bullcrap Jessper, you'd be pressed to find anyone who hates Bleach more than i do and i still read every weekly chapter for the lulz It's fun to watch how it gets more and more ridiculous with each chapter

Yes, and those of us that are still trying to enjoy the show just love it when you guys come and take huge shits on it week in and week out even though you already knew how much you were gonna hate the episode.

"Hey guys, that thing that sucked in the manga sure did still suck in the anime right! HURHURHURHUUR! *highfives*"

It's like having people who like to heckle a bad movie is really only fun if everyone there is there for the same thing. To anyone just trying to watch the movie for the first time, people like that are dicks.

[Endrance]

Except Cloud is never IN SOLDIER! Zack dies right after the Reactor incident, and that's when Cloud has his mental breakdown and LEAVES Shinra and starts thinking Zack's backstory is actually his backstory. He never has a chance to be in SOLDIER.

You really need to reread your FF7 timeline or something.

This is false in so many ways. Neither does Zack die right after that, nor does Cloud "leave" Shinra at this point (he rather has no choice and is taken directly to the basement of the Shinra Villa). They're both being trapped in those glass containers down in the Shinra Villa on order of Hojo. You can check the cutscene where this is shown in the basement of the Villa when you press the action button while being near those green glowing (cause there's fucking Mako/Lifestream in it) tube like containers. Zack manages to get out of the container (because he already went through another, less dangerous procedure before since he was a SOLDIER), takes Cloud and runs. The game itself (although I was rather talking about the overall franchise since the beginning, not just FF7 but that doesn't matter in this case) also shows how Zack and Cloud are on the cargo area of some pickup (picture - they're on the way to Midgar there and this is right before Zack gets shot on the mountain by some random trooper), being driven by some random guy where Cloud is already in that coma like state due to the Mako/Jenova Cell experiments done on him by Hojo. This is the reason why Cloud is already strong and has great potential (SOLDIER like potential!) once Final Fantasy VII starts and you jump off the train.

Also, how do you explain this?

Reno is saying: "He has... Mako eyes."

I apologize that it's written in german text, but I only own the german version. This is being said by so many people so many times in the game (often referring to SOLDIER, since only that people have those eyes), which makes me think everyone in the game seemed to know or at least assume that Cloud went through some kind of procedure connected to Mako, but you.


Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core is a whole game about what's not shown in Final Fantasy VII itself about Zack before and after the Nibel Reactor incident. But again, that doesn't really matter in our case, since the Play Station Version does prove you wrong already.


Although I'm not telling you to stop arguing yourself into a corner (because it's kind of entertaining and because someone is going to intervene at some point anyway if this keeps going), please don't make me take screenshots of everything I just wrote by wriggling even harder.

Yes, and those of us that are still trying to enjoy the show just love it when you guys come and take huge shits on it week in and week out even though you already knew how much you were gonna hate the episode.

We're just posting our opinions in a discussion forum. That means anyone is allowed to post positive and negative aspects of each episode for discussion material as long as they follow the rules, which we do. If you cannot get along with the fact that some people may not be as much of a whitewash candidate as you seem to be (for whatever reason), discussion forums are probably the wrong place for you.

It's like having people who like to heckle a bad movie is really only fun if everyone there is there for the same thing. To anyone just trying to watch the movie for the first time, people like that are dicks.

That's a unfelicitous comparison. Bleach episodes are far from being movies and I doubt anyone would start watching at episode 293. On top of that we're allowed to discuss episodes here. In fact, that's what you're supposed to do. But I already told you that.

[DarthEnderX]

I decided to read the wiki on him just in case I was wrong, and it does say he was NEVER a member of SOLDIER, but it also says he did receive Jenova cells AFTER the reactor incident(hence the green eyes), but that still doesn't explain how Cloud defeated a genetically engineered supersoldier at the reactor when he was still a normal human being.

On top of that we're allowed to discuss episodes here. In fact, that's what you're supposed to do. But I already told you that.

Except those people aren't discussing the episode in the here in and now. They're discussing their perceived generally shittyness of Bleach based on future manga shittieness. I'd really rather deal with that shittieness when it happens in the anime instead of having to listen to it NOW.

[Blind]

Being blind, even i know it was a lousy attempt to plot fill with recapped episodes, Déjà vu anyone?

[Endrance]

I decided to read the wiki on him just in case I was wrong, and it does say he was NEVER a member of SOLDIER, but it also says he did receive Jenova cells AFTER the reactor incident(hence the green eyes), but that still doesn't explain how Cloud defeated a genetically engineered supersoldier at the reactor when he was still a normal human being.

Now that's a lousy attempt to wriggle yourself out of it. I'll say it for the last time - I never asserted he was in SOLDIER at any point in this whole discussion. And even if I did by accident or you misunderstood a sentence, that wouldn't change that you're horribly wrong with saying stuff like Zack dying right away, Cloud leaving Shinra right away or telling me to get my stuff right when you obviously had no idea in the first place and even didn't consider looking it up if you were unsure up until now as we're way into it. That already made you lose alot of credibility along the way in this discussion.

And I've already explained the logic of the world concept from FF7. I'll also repeat that once, or rather copy it here.

He wasn't inexplicably powerful in the past, he just luckily stabbed Sephiroth in the back while Sephiroth was concentrated on his "mother" after beating Zack and Tifa, thinking he got everyone who'd interfere out of the way, so he was weakened by a huge wound right through his stomach (which doesn't mean much in Bleach maybe). Aeris dies like that. Even Zack dies through being shot by someone way weaker than him. People in FF7 don't have some invisible aura shield. They get stabbed and shot like you and me (hopefully not).

Sephiroth and Cloud never actually fought. Cloud stabbed Sephiroth which weakened him heavily (I'd say he was near death or at least couldn't do much after it as he was breathing hard and limping, also Zack told Cloud to finish him off). Then Sephiroth managed to skewer Cloud, because he was still unexperienced/a trained trooper and just berserked at him (we haven't seen if Cloud was wounded mortally, but it's possible he wasn't, while Sephiroth was stabbed by a huge Buster Sword) and after that Cloud had a adrenaline rush (which even makes people in real life forget their pain and also makes them stronger, while I'm not saying that alone this made him able to throw Sephiroth once before being unable to do anything) over Sephiroth killing his family, his friends and burning down his hometown and well, almost being thrown down the reactor himself. After that he instantly collapsed and would've probably died if no one came to pick him up. Also Sephiroth got away with the head of Jenova.

In my opinion, this does make sense, as I've already said - Being stabbed or shot actually means something in FF7. I'm not saying that it's totally realistic (and somehow I'm fine with some added awesomeness if someone attains something by willpower in desperate situations - as long as it doesn't go overboard), but it does make sense in the world concept of the game.

And even if you don't agree with me, this would still be miles away from being as bad as Bleach, where something way worse than this happens like every two minutes in one episode while it has a world concept that includes invisible aura shields which protect you from almost anything as long as it's powerlevel is weaker than yours.

Except those people aren't discussing the episode in the here in and now. They're discussing their perceived generally shittyness of Bleach based on future manga shittieness. I'd really rather deal with that shittieness when it happens in the anime instead of having to listen to it NOW.

Fine, that's a misunderstanding on my part then. I haven't read the manga and I wouldn't spoiler on here even if I did. And while I can't say I'd evaluate them as different products by 100 percent, I'd at least try to stay as objective as possible.

Being blind, even i know it was a lousy attempt to plot fill with recapped episodes, Déjà vu anyone?

You bet.

[DarthEnderX]

And even if you don't agree with me, this would still be miles away from being as bad as Bleach, where something way worse than this happens like every two minutes in one episode while it has a world concept that includes invisible aura shields which protect you from almost anything as long as it's powerlevel is weaker than yours.

I don't actually remember how the FF7 example was supposed to apply to our Bleach argument...

[Jessper]

Besides, if what you imply was true, then no one would be watching/reading harsh reviewers such as spoony, avgn and the whole lot of them. I'm also writing reviews by the way. And the term parody wouldn't even exist.

Both of these things have purpose that you simply do not. Reviews are meant to forewarn people, this is a service to the readers telling them that they might be disappointed and could save their money and time. Most people don't read the discussions until after they've watched the episode, for spoiler reasons. You're not saving anyone anything in this case. The type of parody you're talking about (parody exists outside of ridicule), is meant to entertain an audience, I don't think you enjoy entertaining other people with your discussions though, only yourself.

On top of that you got it wrong. I do enjoy Bleach in a similar manner as Arch does. What you quoted does imply alot of things, but it doesn't certainly mean that I'm not enjoying it in my own way. I do not genuinely like plot holes the way that Chessmaster (I wonder?) guy does, but I find it insanely amusing what Bleach mutated into. Every episode has pseudo-morals that are totally out of context, a huge plot hole at least every two key scenes... and alot of different things I find to enjoy about it. It's almost making a parody of itself, which again in certain ways is really interesting. I'm even currently rewatching the episodes together with a friend for certain reasons. On top of that still finding people who seriously seem to like the anime always gets me some entertainment out of it.

So you do have fun with plot holes and the like, but I suppose this is just semantics and your inability to express yourself.

I'm not essentially complaining and surely not for nothing. I gain something by posting the way I do. You can be sure that if I wasn't, I wouldn't even view this forum.

Surely trolling can not be counted as something of worth.

I'm also not generally interested in personal justification topics on anime or game forums, so be happy I even responded.

Oh be sure, I'm honored to have someone so respectable respond to me.

[Endrance]

I don't actually remember how the FF7 example was supposed to apply to our Bleach argument...

I guess you'll not be surprised if I'm not astonished, since you also don't seem to be able to remember important parts about FF7, but still try so hard that it's almost pitiful and once you're realise you're wrong just act like it never happened but keep going about whatever you think you still have a chance to be right at. But whatever, I'm not getting into those things, as apparently I already have a stalker on me.
I don't know why you do that and I don't really care either. Don't worry though, I don't condemn you for that or anything. Everyone has bad days.

[DarthEnderX]

I guess you'll not be surprised if I'm not astonished, since you also don't seem to be able to remember important parts about FF7

I remembered them as well as you did, you only "magically" started remembering really accurately halfway through the argument as well. It's obvious you did the same thing I did and went and looked it up AFTER you'd already tried to talk some shit. In the beginning, your posts were all vague as hell, now they're all laser accurate because your just paraphrasing the FF Wiki.

I also noticed that just about every post you've made in this argument you edit about an hour after you make it. No doubt going back and fixing errors you made after looking it up.

[Endrance]

I remembered them as well as you did, you only "magically" started remembering really accurately halfway through the argument as well. It's obvious you did the same thing I did and went and looked it up AFTER you'd already tried to talk some shit. In the beginning, your posts were all vague as hell, now they're all laser accurate because your just paraphrasing the FF Wiki.

I've played through FF7 nine times (it was my first RPG and I was open-mouthed about it's quality). There was never a need for me to look up the rough concept and key scenes this discussion was about at the beginning (anyone reading it unbiased (although I doubt many have) would confirm that). I've started looking up specifics (where I knew what happened, but I didn't want to mix things up) and making/finding screenshots to prove you wrong, since you've insisted on your personal opinion that clearly had it's facts wrong. I also admit I even copied one passage of a wiki article, because it sounded scholarly and I couldn't write it any better. lol
But what's wrong with looking things up if you don't clearly remember some specifics? I also keep looking up vocabulary at dict.cc and try to memorize them (main reason for editing my posts). It's better than writing garbage.

I also noticed that just about every post you've made in this argument you edit about an hour after you make it. No doubt going back and fixing errors you made after looking it up.

I didn't have to fix one error in terms of my information. I've only fixed grammatical errors I do from time to time when rereading my posts (mainly because I'm often in skype conferences listening and discussing there at the same time), because english isn't my native language. I'm kinda fussy when it comes to that, since I don't want to have posts that sound as if some kindergarten kid wrote it. Although surely there still are errors, I'm also trying to improve my english by the way. So if you still find any, you can let me know (although I doubt you want to do that). I don't know if it's possible as administrator or moderator to check my posts before I edited them, but you can try asking one if you don't believe me and think that this is important.

It's also obvious I didn't have to look up the part that was about Zack dying after the Nibel incident (your claim), since I've said I played Crisis Core, which (I already said that) is only about the story of Zack.


Now let's stop this. I've accomplished what I wanted to accomplish and there's clearly no need for us to go any further. It wouldn't end in anything other than this stupid personal justification flame war crap and I've already said I'm not intersted in those. You can have the last post if you wish. I'm fine with that, since you've probably been provoked by some of my comments.

[DarthEnderX]

It's also obvious I didn't have to look up the part that was about Zack dying after the Nibel incident (your claim), since I've said I played Crisis Core, which (I already said that) is only about the story of Zack.

I was going by Last Order, which makes it seem like Zack is killed while he and Cloud are on the run after the reactor incident. But I haven't played Crisis Core, and since that is newer, then that would overwrite what is in Last Order.

How does he die in Crisis Core?

In Last Order, they are riding in the back of a truck and it seems like Zack dives in the way of a sniper bullet meant for Cloud.

[UChessmaster]

I was going by Last Order, which makes it seem like Zack is killed while he and Cloud are on the run after the reactor incident. But I haven't played Crisis Core, and since that is newer, then that would overwrite what is in Last Order.

How does he die in Crisis Core?

In Last Order, they are riding in the back of a truck and it seems like Zack dives in the way of a sniper bullet meant for Cloud.

If i recall correctly, the bullet hits zack and then he has to face an army of soldiers, as the battle progress zack becomes more and more wonded and starts losing his memories (which is a part of the gameplay mechanic), he dies as he keeps thinking of Aerith.

[Archangel]

Lol, he doesn't start losing his memories, he's dying and reminiscing about all his friends

[UChessmaster]

You`re right, i used the worst possible wording to explain it.

[Vorlath]

Sorry, I don't check back here too often. But to those that responded to my "there are no plot holes" comment, I want to say that I'm not joking and I'm talking about this episode only. Everyone was going nuts and Ichigo was like WTF? That's all that happened.