Bleach 293

[Kraco]

Ichigo's bankai's main power should be speed. He could have rescued Hinamori if he wanted. However, while I've been calling Ichigo a good for nothing idiot in my previous posts, it was made plainly obvious he didn't do anything at all because he was mortally afraid. You could see that by looking at his hands trembling. Only Hinamori getting "killed" snapped him out of his fright.

But I rather call him an idiot because I hate cowards even more than idiots. Also, I'm quite sure he had more chances of finding an opening while the captains were still standing than when they are all cut down... Haha. He was just too chicken to seize any opportunity.

What comes to their bankais, though, unfortunately could be explained by area effects. For example Soi Fon's huge explosion would be useless when they are all so packed together fighting what they thought was Aizen. For all we know, Shunsui's could be the same. Moreover, if they had any suspicion at all they were under the hypnosis, they would need to be even more careful.

[Endrance]

This thread is full of strange speculations due to even letting the logic of the logic of many strange actions open while at the same time making it look insanely stupid. But that doesn't matter, since it's left open, right? Seriously, endowing a character with a "complete hypnosis" technique, so even the most stupid scene ever wouldn't look liek total bullshit because well... they're hypnotized! Everything is possible from their perspective! Real clever. ONLY IT'S NOT.

(why is a shinigami even born with such a technique or where did he get it from? It's easily the most powerful technique in the whole world and it's never explained why he has it - for example Sephiroth in FF7 looked manlike but had his power because he was a mix of a powerful alien and a human being. Not that ingenious of an explanation either, but at least it's something that made sense in the world concept)

Just as AKiUzBeOn planned. Such subarashi test subjects.








I mean, you're seriously giving yourself the trouble of discussing the logic behind actions in a series where stuff like this happens?


*REACTION*

Totally. I'd fall for that, too. Especially if I could fly or instantly Sonido to the other side of the wall.

Doesn't this also remind you of...

?

I didn't find any plot holes..

You don't see the forest for the trees. Bleach itself is a plot hole. I'm serious. Read the script only (of course after watching the anime) if you're someone who gets easily distracted by visuals. You'll be like: "LOL! THIS IS WORSE THAN THE NES VERSION OF DR JEKYLL AND MR HYDE!" Well maybe not that bad.


Just saiyan.

[DarthEnderX]

(why is a shinigami even born with such a technique or where did he get it from? It's easily the most powerful technique in the whole world and it's never explained why he has it - for example Sephiroth in FF7 looked manlike but had his power because he was a mix of a powerful alien and a human being. Not that ingenious of an explanation either, but at least it's something that made sense in the world concept)

How is that different from any other shounen anime either?

Why do ninjas have ninja powers in Naruto? Why can some people turn into logs and other people can't?


Aizen got his technique cause he's a fucking ghost, and ghosts have magic powers and his powers are stronger cause he's the main villain.

And I can't believe you used fucking Sephiroth as your go-to example for a "well thought out villain". He's Mary Sue incarnate.

[Endrance]

How is that different from any other shounen anime either?

Why do ninjas have ninja powers in Naruto? Why can some people turn into logs and other people can't?

It is explained dude. There's like five whole eps of material where ninja powers are explained with the elemental affinity people are born with and in connection to that they have the potential to learn several different techniques. I'm sure you remember them. It's not that much either and it doesn't always make too much sense, but it fits in the world concept and isn't total bullshit for the most part. Also on top of that, the people who can use a teleport like technique in Naruto are the fucking strongest guys on the planet (which makes totally fucking sense), where as in Bleach, every character with a powerlevel above 100 can do Shunpos and Sonidos like crazy and it doesn't mean shit, because the battles in Bleach make no fucking sense. Next to no character in Bleach actually wants to win if they cannot totally crush their opponent in any possible way and yeeaaahh, they do take the risk of losing their lifes if it means that there will be options to talk them until they're deaf. Wars actually are wars in Naruto and not some talk show rumble farce with Aizen as the Oprah Winfrey.
Naruto compared to that has (excluding fillers of course) well thought out battles for the most part, at least compared to Bleach.

Don't get me wrong though, you're right about there not being much more when it comes to logic in other shounen anime either. I'm just saying that they're not utter garbage with a plot hole every two steps they take.

Aizen got his technique cause he's a fucking ghost, and ghosts have magic powers and his powers are stronger cause he's the main villain.

And I can't believe you used fucking Sephiroth as your go-to example for a "well thought out villain". He's Mary Sue incarnate.

You're saying that, but he's still 5000% compared to Aizen. Sephiroth is strong, because he's a (non-failed) mutant made by the science studios of a monopolizing company (and there's alot known about them) through combining Jenova cells in the womb of a female human. And then there's the story about him finding out what that company did to him and decides to change sides.

It's not too much, but it makes sense in the world they're living in. There's psychological conflicts and interesting plot turnarounds. It's a whole network where every cogwheel has it's place. It's enough. Resident Evil doesn't offer more either and it made it to international cinemas. And there's also other (failed) subjects who are still strong, but not as strong as him and all of them (including Sephiroth later on) suffer from side effects. It's a well thought out gain/loss concept.

Aizen has... nothing. And nobody knows anything about him, neither is it ever explained how differences in shinigami powers are even accomplished in their nature. Natural selection? Possible. But if there's that great of a "gamebreaking" difference, it has to be explained or it throws the world concept overboard. When talking about Bleach, there's always assuming and barely ever any facts which explain essential logical indications.

"Aizen is just a super genius in any possible way (why and how? nobody knows) who does inhuman experiments to gain results and accomplish "higher greatness" and "a new world". That's all." Live with it or get the fuck outta here. Now that's one of the worst possible ways to treat a fanbase. You can't do that. It just has no credibility. If someone invents a light bulb you can say he was able to do that due to natural selection and because he has an outstanding IQ (like 30 above the average) and on top of that was lucky. But you can't make someone a super genius in anything possible without explaining how he got to it. That's just not okay.

Isn't that like the first thing Urahara, the professor Captain or any scientist should wonder about before they get into anything else?

[UChessmaster]

Then by your logic, Stephen Hawkin and Isaac Newton are real life plot holes? We`re never explained why they`re the two strongest mind in the world.

Aizen as the Oprah Winfrey

I`ll take Aizen over Madara *any* day of the week, thanks.

[DarthEnderX]

You're saying that, but he's still 5000% compared to Aizen. Sephiroth is strong, because he's a (non-failed) mutant made by the science studios of a monopolizing company (and there's alot known about them) through combining Jenova cells in the womb of a female human. And then there's the story about him finding out what that company did to him and decides to change sides.

If his strenght makes sense because he's a mutant, they why is Cloud, a normal human, stronger than him in the end?

I`ll take Aizen over Madara *any* day of the week, thanks.

Oh man! What's wrong with Madara now?

[David75]

Aizen is Kubo, hence his total Hax...

Also, the ones really suffering from total and complete hypnosis, are us the audience still watching a show supposed to be utterly crapy for at least some of us... Don't you think?

[Endrance]

Then by your logic, Stephen Hawkin and Isaac Newton are real life plot holes? We`re never explained why they`re the two strongest mind in the world.

What kind of comparison is this? "Real life plot holes"? Do you even understand the term plot?

If his strenght makes sense because he's a mutant, they why is Cloud, a normal human, stronger than him in the end?

It's already implied in the Nibel flashback that Cloud has the potential to beat Sephiroth (in Crisis Core you see Cloud as the shy attack force who doesn't use his potential in the slightest until he's forced to). In fact, he already did in the beginning and Sephiroth fled by jumping down the reactor (although this was out of a adrenaline rush and Sephiroth was already weakened by being stabbed in the back before) and he could only do that - one rush. He also went through several mako experiments by Hojo (not just the SOLDIER one) with implanting Jenova Cells* (just like Sephiroth, which makes him also some sort of mutant) and well, Sephiroth (like the other elite SOLDIER in Crisis Core) transforms later on, which is actually the side effect of the mako experiments they went through. That transformation makes them weaker/die and this is also why Sephiroth lost in the end. And well, because he wasn't beaten by just one person. In the final battle, all of the (rather strong on their own) characters fight him and since FF7 is not Bleach, where only the spiritual pressure counts no matter how many enemies with weaker reiatsu attack or DBZ/GT where the powerlevel decides the winner, they had a fair chance to kill him.

There's also a huge difference between being talented plus using that potential to gain chances and Aizen or while we're at it, also Ichigo.

*Jenova Project

[Kraco]

All those FF references go over my head, but comparing Aizen and Ichigo so far means little. Ichigo might be overly powerful considering he should still be very green but at least he has a huge weakness while Aizen seamingly has none.

Of course I don't see the end yet, and don't even read the manga, but normally one would assume Aizen collected his buddies and then developed the Arrancar to cover his own weakness (whether that weakness was in his defense or required to execute his plan). Now it seems like he had no use for anybody and they just were there because... the mangaka decided the story needed more fights.

[DarthEnderX]

It's already implied in the Nibel flashback that Cloud has the potential to beat Sephiroth (in Crisis Core you see Cloud as the shy attack force who doesn't use his potential in the slightest until he's forced to). In fact, he already did in the beginning and Sephiroth fled by jumping down the reactor (although this was out of a adrenaline rush and Sephiroth was already weakened by being stabbed in the back before) and he could only do that - one rush.

How is that an explanation? Showing a character was also inexplicably powerful in the past doesn't explain how they're so powerful in the present, it's just as much a plot hole in the past as it is in the present.

He also went through several mako experiments by Hojo (not just the SOLDIER one) with implanting Jenova Cells* (just like Sephiroth, which makes him also some sort of mutant) and well, Sephiroth (like the other elite SOLDIER in Crisis Core) transforms later on, which is actually the side effect of the mako experiments they went through.

This isn't correct at all, you seem to have missed a huge part of the plot.

Cloud is a completely normal human. He was NEVER a part of the SOLDIER program. He was a regular shinra trooper. During FF7, Cloud just THINKS he was a former member of SOLDIER because he had a mental breakdown when Zack died and has basically usurped Zack's past history. He thinks Zack's life was actually his life. That's actually the point of all those flashbacks. Early in those games, Cloud always remembers himself in Zacks position. Later in the game, when he's remembering what really happened, he sees that he's actually "3rd stormtrooper from the left" in all of those scenes up until the one where he...a normal trooper...defeats Sephiroth, a genespliced supersoldier, at the reactor with absolutely no explanation as to how.

Cloud never actually had ANY experiments performed on him. Zack is the one who had the experiments, Zack is the member of SOLDIER, Zack is the one with Jenova's cells like Sephiroth.

Now it seems like he had no use for anybody and they just were there because... the mangaka decided the story needed more fights.

Well, from his reactions, he seems to have created them for a specific purpose, but after their performance in this arc, he considers them all failures. So whatever that purpose is, they just didn't fulfill it.

[Endrance]

How is that an explanation? Showing a character was also inexplicably powerful in the past doesn't explain how their so powerful in the present, it's just as much a plot hole in the past as it is in the present.

What the hell are you talking about? There is no plot hole. He wasn't inexplicably powerful in the past, he just luckily stabbed Sephiroth in the back while Sephiroth was concentrated on his "mother" after beating Zack and Tifa, thinking he got everyone who'd interfere out of the way, so he was weakened by a huge wound right through his stomach (which doesn't mean much in Bleach maybe). Aeris dies like that. Even Zack dies through being shot by someone way weaker than him. People in FF7 don't have some invisible aura shield. They get stabbed and shot like you and me (hopefully not).
He is powerful later on, because he is a mutant himself (if Hojo didn't infuse him with mako afterwards, he would've most likely died) and because he gets around, gains experience points and levels his materia and stuff (the combat in the actual game is rather symbolically to understand - it's an oldschool side view ATB). lol
But he's never as powerful as to beat Sephiroth all by himself. As I already mentioned, he doesn't beat Sephiroth alone in the end.

This isn't correct at all, you seem to have missed a huge part of the plot.

Cloud is a completely normal human. He was NEVER a part of the SOLDIER program.

I never said he was, but he was infused with mako AND Jenova Cells just the same as any SOLDIER after the occurrences in the Nibel reactor. NPCs all over the place tell you about your typical "green eyes" which only members of SOLDIER have. Now I'm not saying it's impossible to miss that, but I'm surprised that you seem to be completely clueless, since this isn't the only hint in the game.

He was a regular shinra trooper. During FF7, Cloud just THINKS he was a former member of SOLDIER because he had a mental breakdown when Zack died and has basically usurped Zack's past history. He thinks Zack's life was actually his life. That's actually the point of all those flashbacks. Early in those games, Cloud always remembers himself in Zacks position. Later in the game, when he's remembering what really happened, he sees that he's actually "3rd stormtrooper from the left" in all of those scenes up until the one where he...a normal trooper...defeats Sephiroth, a genespliced supersoldier, at the reactor with absolutely no explanation as to how.

You seem to have misunderstood a huge part here.
In fact, these events did not occur as Cloud describes, that is correct; rather, they are an amalgamation of Cloud's actual past (as a member of the Shinra army who failed to enter SOLDIER) along with his friend Zack's own past, mixed with memories gleaned from Tifa's mind, created out of a combination of shame, Jenova cells and manipulation by Sephiroth.

Everything else has been explained above. If you don't believe me play the game again or look it up. Maybe watch last order on youtube. It's just 22 minutes long or something and explains most of the things we're discussing here. You'll be surprised how much you apparently missed.

Cloud never actually had ANY experiments performed on him.

It may be a little hard to understand in FF7 if you mixed something up (it might get a little confusing if you couldn't follow some parts), but it is in crisis core and last order. He HAD experiments done on him by Hojo and Shinra.

[UChessmaster]

What kind of comparison is this? "Real life plot holes"? Do you even understand the term plot?

Do you understand the term plot hole?

Because there is none here, Aizen`s strenght has no clear limit established, he`s as strong as the writer wants him to be, by my example what i meant is that, Aizen is the strongest because statistically, someone has to be the strongest (just like hawkins is the smartest man alive because someone has to), granted i didn`t used the best example, thought you could`ve had figured what i meant.

There are huge power differences in the Bleach world, this is not new, compare random cannon fodder to Yama-jin, they`re both Shinigamies yet Yama-jin is eons away, was it ever explained what makes the old man so strong? no, why is it a problem now?

I never particullary liked the whole "let`s do detailed explanation as to where guys X is so powerful", at the end of the day it comes down to a wizard did it.

Remind me why Tifa, Caith Sith (a toy of all things) and Cid are so strong again?

Oh man! What's wrong with Madara now?

You don`t want to know.

[Endrance]

Do you understand the term plot hole?

I guess I'm fine ignoring that one.

Because there is none here, Aizen`s strenght has no clear limit established, he`s as strong as the writer wants him to be, by my example what i meant is that, Aizen is the strongest because statistically, someone has to be the strongest (just like hawkins is the smartest man alive because someone has to), granted i didn`t used the best example, thought you could`ve had figured what i meant.

There are huge power differences in the Bleach world, this is not new, compare random cannon fodder to Yama-jin, they`re both Shinigamies yet Yama-jin is eons away, was it ever explained what makes the old man so strong? no, why is it a problem now?

I never particullary liked the whole "let`s do detailed explanation as to where guys X is so powerful", at the end of the day it comes down to a wizard did it.

So you're basically saying you like this kind of plot holes (after saying there is no plot hole? Strange argumentation). Not like I care, but I guess as long as you have fun with low level swiss cheese plots, because you don't want/need explainations of essential parts of a world concept... none of my business. You probably would've liked FFVIII and FFX, too. I never thought that'd happen, but in that case you have my recommendation.

[UChessmaster]

You actually ignored both of my quotes, why post at all then? to insult my taste in video games? good job, yes, i like FF VIII and X, is that a sin now?. Aizen is the strongest (or one of the strongest shinigamies), he doesn`t needs an explanation.

[Endrance]

You actually ignored both of my quotes, why post at all then? to insult my taste in video games? good job. Aizen is the strongest (or one of the strongest shinigamies), he doesn`t needs an explanation.

I usually don't do that, but you deserve it.

[UChessmaster]

*insert facepalm image because i`ve no real comeback*

I usually don't do that, but you deserve it.

And you quote me only to ignore me once again!, i guess asking you to talk about the actual episode requires too much concentration from you, i`m done arguing with you, you were retarded the last thread, and you are retarded now, you can have the last word or whatever.

[Kraco]

Well, from his reactions, he seems to have created them for a specific purpose, but after their performance in this arc, he considers them all failures. So whatever that purpose is, they just didn't fulfill it.

That doesn't really change the fact he never neeeded them in the first place. Because we know he has a very specific aim. Or at least we have been led to think so, and at the moment I don't believe enough in Kubo's writing skills to imagine the aim is something totally different and he has just been deceiving us all.

[Jessper]

I'm really curious if you actually like this Anime or not Endrance? You seem to detest it, yet you also appear to watch it each week.

The dog my family had when I was a kid wasn't exactly bright, even by dog standards, but she took less than 5 minutes to learn how the electric fence we put up worked. She wouldn't go near the fence after that. That's a pretty low standard for intelligence and yet I can't help but find an apt comparison in that experience...

[Archangel]

That's bullcrap Jessper, you'd be pressed to find anyone who hates Bleach more than i do and i still read every weekly chapter for the lulz

It's fun to watch how it gets more and more ridiculous with each chapter

[Jessper]

That's bullcrap Jessper, you'd be pressed to find anyone who hates Bleach more than i do and i still read every weekly chapter for the lulz

It's fun to watch how it gets more and more ridiculous with each chapter

You hate it and yet enjoy it? I think you don't hate it, rather you enjoy it for what you now perceive it as, even if that meant having your ideas of what the show was disillusioned, though that act probably left you bitter. Regardless of that Endrance doesn't seem to share the same enjoyment you do:

Not like I care, but I guess as long as you have fun with low level swiss cheese plots, because you don't want/need explainations of essential parts of a world concept... none of my business.

This implies that he in fact does not have fun with the plot of Bleach.