"Collateral Murder" - US Soldiers kill civilians/journalists in Iraq

[animus]

No one said it's not wrong, and I'm definitely not saying they're right in opening fire on civilians with such a quick open fire confirmation order. But I'm not going to act like I know what it's like out there. Sure I think this sucks and that they should be held accountable for their actions, but whatever.

And according to that blog entry you posted, they actually did have AKs and an RPG. So, shrug. The van shooting however is an extreme error. But, I'd guess they saw it as insurgents picking up their wounded insurgents and their armaments. So, honestly I don't know.

[darkshadow]

Even if there was an RPG, it's not going to hit an attack helicopter at that range.

This was completely uncalled for, even going as far as saying "shouldn't have brought their kids to battle then" as if somehow that makes it alright.

[animus]

No, of course it doesn't make it alright. But do you honestly think it was a smart idea to drive up your van to where this incident just occurred and somehow expect that there would be no chance that they themselves would get fired upon? And yes, the fault does lie on Crazy Horse 18.

[Dark Dragon]

Why the fuck are some of you trying to justify this?? There's no situation stressful enough that would warrant the murder of so many innocent people. You can't wave this away because "you don't know what it's like". This is murder on an institutional level and it's been covered up by the government. How complacent do you have to be to pretend this isn't wrong? Edit: That wasn't a knock at you, Dark Dragon, I'm just saying.

Anyway, here's a blog post by a guy who's "been in their shoes" and agrees these guys are nutcases: http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/0...ateral-murder/

I think i was pretty clear in my statement that these guys need to be held responsible and be punished for their action. I'm just saying that all we saw is one video that shows a blatant error in judgement and even as far as dangerous behavior. It might be in everyone best interest if these guys were discharged if they weren't already. I also think they should be court martial, despite what my earlier comment might suggest. I'm not particularly fond of government cover ups either.

At the same time, all we saw is one video. We have no idea what these guys were doing days or week before this event. There have been report of the other side going as far as using the mentally ill in wheel chair as suicide bombs. Hell, for all we know there might have been a similar situation before that led to an ambush.

No one in their right mind is going to argue with you guys that this ISN'T wrong. But at the same time we're not in a viable position with enough information to condemn these guys as monsters or something. I'm not trying to defend these soldier or their action, i'm just saying don't be so quick to judge.

[Sapphire]

I feel like people don't understand or care how serious this matter is.

Life isn't a TV show where you can just kill off dozens of people for a "cause" and make it seem morally justified. They're, like, actual PEOPLE who were murdered, if your defenseless family was murdered would it matter what "psychological state" the murderer was in or that the murderer murdered because he was in a "war"? I also resent the fact that we all have to fund this crap through taxes.

Those military guys => murderers => monsters => condemned by me

(And the polititians glorify this)

[Carnage]

But do you honestly think it was a smart idea to drive up your van to where this incident just occurred and somehow expect that there would be no chance that they themselves would get fired upon? And yes, the fault does lie on Crazy Horse 18.

So let me get this straight. You're criticizing us for judging soldiers because we don't live in their shoes, but you're criticizing civilians over there that live in conditions that you don't live in yourself?

[animus]

When did I criticize anyone? I didn't criticize anyone for judging anything. I just offered to play the Devil's Advocate. Like I said for the millionth time, I don't know what goes on in their heads, I'm not in their position.

[Dark Dragon]

I think a lot of people here missed my point entirely and that was my fault for not clearly elaborating.

You can look at this with the thinking "look they killed civilians, they are monsters, condemn them". Discharge them, court martial them and hell take them down here to Texas and give them the chair. Does that really solve anything? sure the general public will feel better because we punished these "monsters" and the politician can pretend like they did everyone a service by punishing these guys. Everyone would just move on and forget about it until something else happens again.

Or

You can rationalize, and think that might lead a human being into doing something like this. Bear with my insanity for a bit. This is a problem within the military system. It's hard to say where, but it could be the mental training for these guys to not feel for the enemies or even as early as a lack of proper requirement for joining the military. Once you determine what that is, you can attack the problem at the source. If you don't have the expertise to do it then spread this information until sooner or later an expert of the subject will feel the need to research it.

The bottom line is to think this over rationally and take action.

I feel like people don't understand or care how serious this matter is.

I cared enough to informed everyone i know about this video and i believe that anyone who care about this matter should do so too if they haven't already. Words of mouth is a very effective method of distributing information. So what if major news sources won't cover this story? If enough people know about it then they eventually will be forced to. It's certainly better than bitching on an anime forum about the government, military, etc etc.

edit: @ Xanboo

My assessment is based on my experiences in that very theater of operations. I did not see a threat that warranted an engagement at any point. I did, however, see the elements indicating such a threat could develop at any moment. People can make their judgements however they wish, but what is clearly visible is not the entire picture. I’ll also say that I’ve seen Crazyhorse elements do some pretty drastic maneuvers to protect troops and civilians alike. Those pilots have saved the lives of my friends many times, and a bad shoot is not going to ruin them as far as I’m concerned.

That was from the blog you linked. I can't really see where he is calling them nutcases.

[XanBcoo]

You can rationalize, and think that might lead a human being into doing something like this. Bear with my insanity for a bit. This is a problem within the military system. It's hard to say where, but it could be the mental training for these guys to not feel for the enemies or even as early as a lack of proper requirement for joining the military. Once you determine what that is, you can attack the problem at the source. If you don't have the expertise to do it then spread this information until sooner or later an expert of the subject will feel the need to research it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as saying you didn't think it was wrong. I'm not out for blood, since I agree with you that the heart of the problem is not these individual guys, but the system that trained them to fire at those people without remorse. The same system that covered it up for 3 years. The soldiers deserve every punishment they get, but that's not even the heart of the issue.

I said this early on but got side tracked when it seemed like people were making excuses for the soldiers. Sorry again.

That was from the blog you linked. I can't really see where he is calling them nutcases.

My angry words, not his. Basically he agrees they were at fault and made several errors in judgment.

It bugs the hell out of me that some people (no one here, really) are trying to say that because an AK-47 was visible that it gave Crazyhorse good reason to open fire. If carrying a weapon is cause enough to be fired upon, then the rules of engagement are in need of some serious repair.

[Dark Dragon]

Don't worry, i didn't feel like you targeted me with your argument. My first two post was during breaks between classes so given the time constraint i might have came off as defending those soldiers.

I've learn that there's are people in the world who would be willing to justify any sort of atrocities if it fit their agenda. Sometimes it's just not worth it to get angry at those people.

I kinda got annoyed and sidetracked when all i saw was just a bunch of angry ranting forming into a mob mentality.

[XanBcoo]

It's hard to say where, but it could be the mental training for these guys to not feel for the enemies or even as early as a lack of proper requirement for joining the military.

This seems to be the case:

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Anyway, I can't blame people for having an angry knee-jerk reaction to this. Watch the long version of the video if you haven't. The guy who gets a missile attack as he's just walking down the street is what gets me...

[Sapphire]

I cared enough to informed everyone i know about this video and i believe that anyone who care about this matter should do so too if they haven't already. Words of mouth is a very effective method of distributing information. So what if major news sources won't cover this story? If enough people know about it then they eventually will be forced to. It's certainly better than bitching on an anime forum about the government, military, etc etc.

Good for you, but I was referring to the people who literally believe that this isn't a big deal because the overall outcome is better even if hundreds and thousands (couple million?) people die. There isn't much I can do about it (without getting arrested) other than talk about it to people. If only funding a war was voluntary! (Then sending troops all over the world wouldn't be so FRIVOLOUS and people would be held more accountable) Not only that, but how different would the structuring be? Secrecy would not be nearly as tolerated. A "I'm paying for this, I want to know where my investment is going damn it" mentality would be more common. And If crazy shit was found out their profits would drop phenomenally (instead of being perpetuated).

One of my British friends once commented that she "lives in a society where pizza comes faster than the police". Another person replied to her "well the police get paid regardless so it doesn't really matter if they show up on time now does it". I think the main problem is no one gets held accountable (and people get away with covering shit up for years) is they all get paid regardless. Millions of dollars can be wasted on something that makes no sense, and other than a statement of "OHSHIII----" the same people get to spend all our money on whatever the "majority" feels like. Lulz.

[Pandadice]

This seems to be the case:

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whoa, good find. very interesting read.

[KrayZ33]

and no, these 2 are not reporters
so they have no cameras or whatever

u can clearly see the RPG a little bit later.

and its unimportant whether its a direct threat to the helicopter, a guy with an RPG is obviously a threat to the ground forces.

not saying I understand why they aimed for the people without guns too though (they tried to kill everyone, even the guys without weapons.. u can clearly see that)

I don't understand one thing at all though

when that wounded guy crawled away, he didn't shoot because he had no weapon.. "come on.. all u have to do is pick up a weapon" its not like he cared for that when he began shooting the crowd.

and then the van appears and the guys in the van tried to help/get the wounded guy away from the scene
*WHY* does he want to shoot them? they were not carrying any weapons.

I mean its like he's saying

"ok he has no weapon, I won't shoot him"
Van appears:
"OH NO fuck you, u won't!" *rattarattaratta*

this is so wrong.

This was completely uncalled for, even going as far as saying "shouldn't have brought their kids to battle then" as if somehow that makes it alright.

to be honest I can understand why he said that...
i guess...to stay mental stable u have to say such things in war

[XanBcoo]

The guy in the van who stopped to help was taking his daughters to their tutor. He had no idea what was going on .

Edit: Oops, apparently it was his daughter and his son, not 2 daughters.

so they have no cameras or whatever

u can clearly see the RPG a little bit later.

and its unimportant whether its a direct threat to the helicopter, a guy with an RPG is obviously a threat to the ground forces.

It doesn't even matter if he had an RPG. Killing everyone in the area because you see someone with a weapon is not the proper course of action:

At 4:08 to 4:18 another misidentification is made by Crazyhorse 18, where what appears to clearly be a man with a telephoto lens (edit to add: one of the Canon EF 70-200mm offerings) on an SLR is identified as wielding an RPG. The actual case is not threatening at all, though the misidentified case presents a major perceived threat to the aircraft and any coalition forces in the direction of its orientation. This moment is when the decision to engage is made, in error.

[Sapphire]

The guy in the van who stopped to help was taking his daughters to their tutor. He had no idea what was going on

That IS very

Seems like it actually hitting the media. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-FvR...eature=related

But for how long?

(Sorry for double post, merge posts please?)

[KrayZ33]

At 4:08 to 4:18 another misidentification is made by Crazyhorse 18, where what appears to clearly be a man with a telephoto lens

the real RPG is seen 3:43 ~ 3:58

the guy at 4:08 etc is a reporter... the guy @ 3:43 however, is not.

Killing everyone in the area because you see someone with a weapon is not the proper course of action:

thats why I said

not saying I understand why they aimed for the people without guns too though (they tried to kill everyone, even the guys without weapons.. u can clearly see that)

[XanBcoo]

The decision and clearance to fire was made upon seeing the camera, which they thought was an RPG.

Regardless, even if they had fired on the guy with the actual RPG, they had no reason to do so. "Carrying a weapon" does not equal "Dirty terrorist" and it's no reason to take out a block full of people.

Seems like it actually hitting the media.

FOX news takes a surprising stance on the issue

Some of the comments are sane, but most are along these lines:

I love this country and the soldiers that risk their life for us,and it anger me so to see anyone talk bad about them.

[KrayZ33]

Regardless, even if they had fired on the guy with the actual RPG, they had no reason to do so. "Carrying a weapon" does not equal "Dirty terrorist"

carrying such weapons is reason enough to do so
its war after all
not to mention that troops got attacked there earlier which is probably the reason why the Choppers are patrouling there in the first place.

however it doesn't even matter

if they carry weapons, they are allowed to engage.

[XanBcoo]

if they carry weapons, they are allowed to engage.

Nope, sorry.

Even under the immensely stupid assumption that anyone carrying a weapon is a terrorist, shooting first and asking questions later is a tactical blunder not limited to consequences like shooting a guy carrying a camera.