Toaru Kagaku no Railgun

[Buffalobiian]

Or ever.

At Accel's full capacity, yes.

Misaka could buddy up with MISAKA and Last Order though if she really wanted to take post-injury Accel down.

[shinta|hikari]

There is no way Last Order will take Mikoto's side over Accelerator's.

[Buffalobiian]

There is no way Last Order will take Mikoto's side over Accelerator's.

Let's try that again.

And I haven't even brought out the ice-cream or the childish underwear yet.

[shinta|hikari]

Boys over flowers.

[Xelbair]

There is not a single thing that can even damage Accelerator(except Touma)...

[Kraco]

There is not a single thing that can even damage Accelerator(except Touma)...

The story simply hasn't had any reason to introduce too many characters trying to. Accelerator is still a human behind his powers, and thus prone to dying very easily. A normal human could kill him with nerve gas. Or just poison his next meal. So, it's not impossible to imagine some espers that might have a chance as well.

[David75]

Accelerator will meet someone who knows how to use his powers against him. That we know from the first show.
Even if the explanation was a bit too cheesy for my tastes, Accelerator isn't unbeatable. Even without the more effective and simple ways Kraco mentioned.

That reminds me that Accelerator would probably be useless against Kuroko. Well almost anyone would be per our former discussions.
But in that particular case, Accelerator can reverse anything coming at him or touching him. But since Kuroko can teleport things, there's no reverse option and no vector/speed change Accelerator could use if objects appear inside him, like a pebble or anything teleported inside his brain.

[Xelbair]

Well, according to Index he hasn't been hurt even once before Touma's punch. so i doubt that anyone can win vs him.

Reversal of vectors is default mode of the barrier around him, but it is not the only one. He can alter vectors too.

Teleportation - we don't know how exactly her power works - she might be moving stuff through extra dimensions as it was theorized before, therefore teleportation uses a vector, albeit not a 3d one. It can be reversed/altered.

The theory behind teleportation is to get away from the 3 dimensions, find his/her position in the 11th dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport.
source - Index wiki

I think that there is only thing that could damage Accelerator - something that it outside of his understanding(new law of physics for example. or some kind of quantum tunnelling-like power effect) -as we are aware that espers need to do precise calculations to properly apply their powers.

[Kraco]

Well, according to Index he hasn't been hurt even once before Touma's punch. so i doubt that anyone can win vs him.

That doesn't prove anything siginificant at all. It's not like beating Accelerator would have been the life's mission to anybody but some miserable lowlifes that we have seen attacking him. Even Accelerator himself never wandered around looking for strong people to beat. He was annoyed when fools appeared out of nowhere to challenge him in vain. So, why would anybody more intelligent and actually strong even bother? They would require a strong motive like Mikoto trying to save her sisters. It doesn't need to be mentioned how rare such an incentive would be. If nobody serious ever tries, then nothing can be proven. Except that the first, or second if you count Mikoto, serious person who did try, Touma, actually did beat the mighty, invincible Accelerator. Not much of a legend if you think about it...

[Xelbair]

I'm willing to bet that all lv5 have fought with each other to test the limits of their power.

[Archangel]

There is not a single thing that can even damage Accelerator(except Touma)...

You've already forgot that scientist dude who shat on him hardcore?

[shinta|hikari]

I'm pretty sure Teleporters cannot even touch Accelerator, otherwise all decent Teleporters would be level 5, and Accelerator won't be number 1 out of the level 5s. It was already deduced before that Kuroko adds vectors to anything she teleports, so Accelerator's reflect will work on it.

Killing 128 original Railguns was deemed necessary to make Accelerator level 6, so yeah, Mikoto will never be able to beat him.

Saying that no one is seriously after Accelerator's life despite him being number 1 in the entire city is absurd. He is performing an experiment that involves killing 20,000 Railgun clones, and only because there aren't enough original Railguns to beat. Don't you think the other Level 5s or powerful espers will be involved in something similar? The very nature of ranking espers means they are competing with each other, and not all competitions are friendly and fair, as we have seen from the 4th ranked level 5 and the insane Accelerator. What's the most straightforward method to be the number 1 in the city? Just get rid of the number 1. The reason Accelerator retains that spot is simply because no one is able to beat him, except of course Touma, who won by being underestimated, luck, and plot armor.

Poisoning his food might work though, if he was stupid enough to eat food someone else has prepared, which is quite possible after he was changed by Last Order.

[Buffalobiian]

You've already forgot that scientist dude who shat on him hardcore?

Are you talking about the one who put a bullet in his brain? That guy took on Accel when he used his full processing power to decode Last Order's virus, so I'm not sure I'll give him much credit for that.

As for the Top Esper Competition, I'm not sure there's some real combat ranking per se. I'd say each esper simply just gets evaluated on their ability and ranked, just like Mikoto gets ranked in the railgun-test. The question I've always had was how they evaluated esper powers. Something "objective" would be energy output, but it would be difficult to apply that across the board when some abilities such as mind-control doesn't use power its basis for "ability". Control obviously plays a part in it, but how you gauge that is an even bigger question.

Based on that, the exact definition of a level 6 isn't even given to us, so I have no idea about what such a "breakthrough" signifies beyond +1 to an arbitrary category system.

[Kraco]

We haven't seen other level 5s than Accelerator, Biribiri, and Mental Out, if memory serves. We know Mikoto is no match against Accelerator, and we can deduce Misaki is neither as it's all too easy to imagine reading and affecting brain waves requires traffic to and from (Mikoto is able to block it, after all), plus she's even using that remote controller for whatever purpose. Besides, I don't see such a princess character interested in fighting swearing, scruffy men in dark alleys anyway. Mikoto was chasing Touma all the time to have a fight, but we all know her real tsundere motivation behind that action. She would never chase Accelerator similarly.

So, what guarantee do we have any of the level 5 would have a personality making them fight till death against another level 5 just for the sake of a ranking list? Nothing. That's just an assumption. Even Accelerator's personality wasn't deep down like that. If it was, he wouldn't have saved Last Order and suffer her continuous presence by living with her. In fact nothing suggests the highest level espers (4/5) became such by endlessly challenging strong people in fights. It's about personal reality, which makes it all about stuff inside one's head, not gaining experience points from last bosses.

I was never overly impressed by the people behind the level 6 shift program, so I've very high doubts the stupid fights Accelerator went through would serve any other purpose but to make him a psychopath. Seriously, the CPU time they got from Tree Diagram was completely wasted.

[shinta|hikari]

So, what guarantee do we have any of the level 5 would have a personality making them fight till death against another level 5 just for the sake of a ranking list? Nothing. That's just an assumption.

Of course there is no guarantee. However, that goes both ways. There is no proof of there being no combat between the level 5s at all is there (in fact, a conflict between 3 and 5 was already seen in a previous episode, and a beat down in the next)? There is also no proof that the other ranked espers have no desire to improve their ranks by beating those above them is there? What I am saying is, in a setting where 20,000 clones are being killed to improve the power of 1 esper, it is stranger to assume that no violence, competition, or conflict exists between those at the top.

When Accelerator was beaten in Index, people started coming after him. Why the hell would they do that? While vengeance is a possible reason, it was made obvious that the assailants wanted recognition, which is a perfectly good reason, especially for people nearer the top because they may believe they have a chance.

If you are saying that the others aren't seriously trying to kill Accelerator because the risk is too high for the gain, doesn't that prove Accelerator's superiority and practical invincibility? If he could be killed just by "seriously trying" he would be dead by now.

[Buffalobiian]

Of course there is no guarantee. However, that goes both ways. There is no proof of there being no combat between the level 5s at all is there (in fact, a conflict between 3 and 5 was already seen in a previous episode, and a beat down in the next)? There is also no proof that the other ranked espers have no desire to improve their ranks by beating those above them is there? What I am saying is, in a setting where 20,000 clones are being killed to improve the power of 1 esper, it is stranger to assume that no violence, competition, or conflict exists between those at the top.

While there is no rule that said "No Espers shall fight for rank", the chances of that happening are slim - simply because the way people are being constantly evaluated on-screen are through tests. Kuroko was graded a lvl4 by her control and ability to move objects. But all that's just a side-argument. The biggest reason why fights aren't used to evaluate abilities is because abilities are not military-goal related. This is Academy city, not super-soldier city. Students are assessed on merits, not combat proficiency. Accelerator was made to fight because life/death situations were supposed to advance his ability.

There is nothing to rule out the violent approach you suggested, but at the same time there is simply no reason to evaluate non-combat skills via combat (while there is at least (elusive) reasoning behind the personal-reality and world-bending tests currently used).

People want to take down Accel because:

1) he's an asshole (revenge)
2) he was untouchable (feel good)

You've pointed that out, but you suggest that 2 is meant to boost their ranks. I fail to see Academy City Admin raising anybody's stats because they beat Accel. Touma beat Accel and he's still level zero.

[Kraco]

When Accelerator was beaten in Index, people started coming after him. Why the hell would they do that? While vengeance is a possible reason, it was made obvious that the assailants wanted recognition, which is a perfectly good reason, especially for people nearer the top because they may believe they have a chance.

Yeah, sure they want recognition and fame. But they were all were nobodies, just like the people Mikoto keeps electrocuting in the dark alleys. They are either common ruffians not knowing what they are doing, Skill-Out members, or some level 1 or 2 fools who don't know how they are supposed to develop themselves.

If you are saying that the others aren't seriously trying to kill Accelerator because the risk is too high for the gain, doesn't that prove Accelerator's superiority and practical invincibility? If he could be killed just by "seriously trying" he would be dead by now.

Risk is high, but what exactly is the gain, huh? I said before we have no evidence whatsoever you become a strong esper by defeating strong people in battle. All we have is the bullshit theory from Tree Diagram, which no sane person would buy, because that theory even replaces strong opponents by a huge number of weak opponents. As if a normal human could become stronger by killing 20000 mice one by one, for example. Since your power as an esper is all inside your head, you could become level 5 by sitting in a monastery dwelling in your own little personal reality until you believe you are the emperor of the world and can do anything. Though I doubt in practice great many could pull that off.

And yes, Accelerator could be killed by seriously trying. We have already covered that. But there's no meaning in killing him by underhanded methods. Your fame wouldn't rise among your peers if you told them you killed Accelerator not in a fight but by spicing his meal with botulinum. But then again, we haven't even seen yet serious people who would care about such a fame, just the nonames.

[shinta|hikari]

@Buff - Ranking non-combat abilities may have to rely on tests as you said, but combat abilities can be compared and ranked by combat. Tests may exists, but that does not mean that defeating a higher ranked esper (and thus proving you are stronger) will not be recognized. Mikoto wanted to sacrifice herself in a battle with Accelerator in Index to save the sisters. She intended to die on the first move, disproving the tree diagram that stated that she would be killed in a set number of moves. This means there is reason to believe that scientific evaluation based on "on screen" tests can be affected by real life events. Real life events are still data after all, and are part of the data used on evaluations. The level 6 experiment being halted indicates this as well. Scientific evaluation and data were overturned by a real battle. The reason Touma did not rise in level is simply because he did not have any observable abilities to begin with.

I guess speculation at this point is moot, because all we are saying is that we cannot disprove each other. It will simply end up in "How do we know..." or "Chances are..." which really have no meaning because all that can be said has already been said at this point. Debating possibilities based on the lack of evidence is pointless.

I am still quite certain that in Academy city, no one can beat Accelerator in a straight fight, even if it is just based on the nature of his power.

[Buffalobiian]

I am still quite certain that in Academy city, no one can beat Accelerator in a straight fight, even if it is just based on the nature of his power.

But.. there's Touma....

[Kraco]

I am still quite certain that in Academy city, no one can beat Accelerator in a straight fight, even if it is just based on the nature of his power.

He seemed to have that sort of fame, if nothing else, so it makes sense most espers would imagine losing the fight immediately.

If I understand correctly, there are already quite a lot of level 4s in Academy city, which means there are all manner of powers as well. Considering how all level 5s are so famous, or at least much attention is paid to being level 5 even if the actual person behind the rank number was largely unknown to the population, it would be strange if there actually weren't a few official level 4s who hold themselves back in the examination to avoid being promoted to level 5. Sure, most people especially of that age would like nothing better than to belong to the glorious elite, but I'm sure there are some among them who'd think two steps ahead, especially since they need to be special to be so strong espers, so they can't be any Jane or John Does. I'd see certain advantages in being officially level 4 but in reality already level 5, all the more so if Shinta is correct and some espers try to climb ranks by proving they are stronger than those right above them. In short, there could be a level 4 with some non-vector power who could actually fight Accelerator. Not that I'd except such a person to appear in the story.