Movie: Avatar

[animus]

Jake's operation was set in stone before we knew they were going to destroy home tree. The promise happened before Jake and the scientists moved to Grace's old camp where they would link to their avatars. It was very early when he got promised it.

The destruction of Home Tree was due to Jake's betrayal. They were bull dozing the trees down earlier, but it enraged Quatrich that it was Jake's avatar that did damage to the bulldozers. Sure they might've destroyed Home Tree regardless, but that's because of the somethinganium (can't remember the name) deposit under the tree. I'm sure they'd have no reason to destroy the tree of souls of Jake didn't flee there considering it is in the Flux fields. Have you forgotten the point of Jake's entry into Na'vi society? It was to blend in, be trusted, and figure out a bargaining chip. Quatrich's mission on top of that was for him to relay structural data of Home Tree to him, which he did at the beginning at least.

The movie uses the term race very loosely. This is not betraying your race, this is betraying the entire human species in favor of another species of humanoids. An hour and a half of the movie wasn't dedicated to showing why he would choose ANY decision. It was merely a look into his undertaking in another world, in another body, among non-humans. But then according to your logic, why are we not in Darfur, Myanmar, etc. defending the injusticed? Just because injustice is there does not mean you HAVE to take part in it.

Jake IS betraying humans. There's no other way to sugar coat it. He killed humans, to protect another group of indigenous humanoids. Let's face it. He is an ex-Marine. He trained, lived, breathed, and believed he would die under the motto to protect his country, his planet, and Humans. Your analogy is ridiculous. The situations are totally different. A more akin analogy would be animal activists that ask for the death penalty for humans that host underground animal fighting rings or companies that do animal testing. Sure those are morally wrong, but to me the life of another animal will NEVER equal the life of a human being.

He'd have no ramifications when he returned to Earth if he had not interfered with the mining plans to begin with, and he would have had his legs back. Sure he wouldn't have his alien 15 foot blue alien body, alien tail, and he'd live on a barren and desolate homeworld but are those really the price to pay to betray your own kind? Of course you'd think his motives are justified in terms of the plot, they make for a good subtext to a movie, and even more so a reason for a huge ass battlefield action movie scene.

My argument about him falling in love too easily is not ridiculous at least by my standards. The process in which he fell in love with something not human is akin to you falling in love with your dog, or to an anime character, etc.

None of your reasons justify betraying humans. If he believes the life of Na'vi are worth more than the price of humans, he was never much of a Marine, much less a human. But I guess that's true considering he gave them up for the well-being of the Na'vi. Lastly, the movie's ending sugar coats it with Jake giving up his Turuk, but his actions possibly caused out the destruction of the Na'vi. The movie has us believe that humans aren't going to come back and wage war, and turn a blind eye because they deported humans off the planet. Sure if the Na'vi decided to not wage war they'd probably be enslaved (which was originally the plan in the original script apparently), but it's arguable I guess if it beats total annihilation or extinction.

[Munsu]

What is apparently being ignored here is that these were a group of mercenaries hired by a company. He didn't betray the marines, he didn't betray his country, he betrayed a immoral company and its mercenaries.

So I guess if I somehow ended up being alied with a group of terrorists, I should just be loyal to them. That's pretty much what he was facing.

[animus]

PMC or not, they're humans. So you'll wage war on all of humankind on the basis of immorality? You might as well wage war against all the countries on Earth at this very moment, seeing as how all humans are immoral. Just because we sanction the slaughtering and production of various domestic animals for consumption does not mean it's not immoral.

He did betray the Marines, ex-Marine presently or not he betrayed the code, as soon as he betrayed humans for any non-human he abandoned his humanity. Which seeing as he did, is not that big a deal to him. He didn't somehow end up being allied with them. He chose to ally with them, and waged war versus that which he swore to protect, corrupt immoral privatized company and it's mercenaries or not.

[Ryllharu]

Jake's operation was set in stone before we knew they were going to destroy home tree. The promise happened before Jake and the scientists moved to Grace's old camp where they would link to their avatars. It was very early when he got promised it.

The destruction of Home Tree was due to Jake's betrayal. They were bull dozing the trees down earlier, but it enraged Quatrich that it was Jake's avatar that did damage to the bulldozers. Sure they might've destroyed Home Tree regardless, but that's because of the somethinganium (can't remember the name) deposit under the tree. I'm sure they'd have no reason to destroy the tree of souls of Jake didn't flee there considering it is in the Flux fields. Have you forgotten the point of Jake's entry into Na'vi society? It was to blend in, be trusted, and figure out a bargaining chip. Quatrich's mission on top of that was for him to relay structural data of Home Tree to him, which he did at the beginning at least.

Quatrich and Selfridge (the company man) betrayed Jake first. They told him that he would have the time he needed to try to convince them to leave. They ran the bulldozers in without stopping and seeing if they could contact Jake to proceed as they had planned. The two of them were going to destroy Home Tree anyway, whether Jake could get them out or not. Quatrich hated the Na'vi and everything on Pandora. He was thrilled once he had an excuse to destroy the tree of souls.

There was only one reason the Na'vi accepted Jake. There was absolutely no way he could, "blend in and be trusted," unless they allowed it. They allowed only because he was the first "dreamwalker" that was a warrior from human culture. Being a culture of warriors themselves, this was the only kind of human who could be taught to respect their ways. The only kind of human who could survive learning to understand them. They showed Norm getting jealous about how much progress Jake had made because he was just a dumb grunt and couldn't even speak their language, but over time even Norm accepted that only warriors were going to truly interact with the Na'vi after what Jake found out. Scientists were not allowed close to Home Tree until Jake convinced them to let Grace back in, and she was only allowed because of all the good she had done for the Na'vi with her school.

Jake IS betraying humans. There's no other way to sugar coat it. He killed humans, to protect another group of indigenous humanoids. Let's face it. He is an ex-Marine. He trained, lived, breathed, and believed he would die under the motto to protect his country, his planet, and Humans. Your analogy is ridiculous.
...
Sure those are morally wrong, but to me the life of another animal will NEVER equal the life of a human being.

Jake was an ex-Marine. I'm not sure how much more clear that was made in the first 30 minutes. There are no Marines on Pandora. They are all private military contractors hired by the mining company. Jake even made a negative remark that they weren't Marines, they were there for the pay. Nor can you make the conclusion that the Na'vi are animals like Quatrich likes to claim. Even the company man didn't say that. You cannot compare sentient life with a clear and defined culture to animals.

My argument about him falling in love too easily is not ridiculous at least by my standards. The process in which he fell in love with something not human is akin to you falling in love with your dog, or to an anime character, etc.

Again, this isn't something that you can equate to a non-sentient creature. An anime character is a static thing. Sentient life is something completely different. That analogy fails completely. The situation is far closer to falling in love with another human from a culture completely different from your own. An American going to the tribal hills of Pakistan, a Maasai going to Japan, a Lithuanian going to live with the Huli. That would be more accurate than equating them to pets or a painting on a wall.

The movie has us believe that humans aren't going to come back and wage war, and turn a blind eye because they deported humans off the planet. Sure if the Na'vi decided to not wage war they'd probably be enslaved (which was originally the plan in the original script apparently), but it's arguable I guess if it beats total annihilation or extinction.

It never mentioned humanity, because this wasn't a Humanity versus Aliens situation. It was a Encroaching Corporate Entity versus Native Population. There are still humans at the base, they are still in contact with humanity. The Company was thrown off Pandora at their own incredible expense. They would have to spend more money to hire a new group of military, a new spacecraft to travel back, and new equipment that the Na'vi and remaining scientific community will undoubtedly commandeer or more likely destroy. It is not a matter of humanity as a whole feeling threatened or attacked. Perhaps that will be the case down the line, but it was a private company involved in a private venture. That venture failed.

[animus]

Your understanding of the definition of sentient is wrong. Dogs and cats are sentient beings. Humans are sentient and animals.

No, Jake chose to betray the Na'vi by himself. He agreed to help Quatrich scout out the Home Tree's columns, it's infrastructure, etc. He knew they wanted to destroy it, and he agreed to it much to the dismay of Grace with the promise of a repaired spine. Grace knew that Jake was working for Quatrich. Sure, Quatrich bulldozed early, but Jake had already known prior that there was no way of convincing them to move as evident in one of his Vlogs that there was nothing the Na'vi wanted from them. But he didn't say anything until it was too late.

Since your understanding of sentient is false, an anime character according to your definition is sentient, as they can be given personality, beliefs, feelings, as dictated by an author. They can be a fully rounded character, though not real or alive. Heck, there's even that guy in Japan that wants to marry this anime character.

I don't know how many times I've said this already, but the Na'vi are NOT humans. Just because they are humanoids does not mean they are humans. Thus the analogy of love between a different ethnic group and their differing cultures is not prevalent. They are NOT humans. Sure, they are an indigenious species of humanoid that have their own dogma, religion, caste, etc. but they are not humans. They don't even live on Earth. They can learn to speak English, but again, they are not humans.

Jake is an ex-Marine, most likely based on the fact that he is crippled, making him a former marine. He is in it for the money, evident by his presence there. He says the operation to repair a spine isn't cheap.

It will turn out to be a Humanity versus Aliens situation. Jake said so himself in the movie. Privatized company and PMC aside, you don't honestly believe that there will be no retaliation as soon as word goes out that an alien race waged war and killed hundreds of humans, and probably blew billions of stockholder, not to mention whatever country still exists sanctioned their actions through sponsoring through funds.

But, anyways I'm done arguing these points seeing as how the movies standard action plot fare isn't worth the amount of racking my brain for tidbits to remember.

[Lucifus]

""Sentient" redirects here. For other uses, see Sentient (disambiguation).

Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. The term is used in philosophy (particularly in the philosophy of animal ethics and in eastern philosophy) as well as in science fiction and (occasionally) in the study of artificial intelligence. In each of these fields the term is used slightly differently.

In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires our respect and care. In science fiction, sentience is "personhood": the essential quality that separates humankind from machines or lower animals. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to some Western academic philosophers as "qualia".

Some advocates of animal rights argue that many animals are sentient in that they can feel pleasure and pain, and that this entails being entitled to some moral or legal rights." - Wikipedia

You an advocate then mate?

Almost every choice Jake made was the morally correct one. The only reason the mercenaries didn't proceed earlier is that the company would come under fire with bad publicity and probably intervention by the real ruling military itself.

I highly doubt if that story came to light, the company would reap in any profits.

On your point with war against the Aliens. War? The general public would never stand for it. More like every single scientist and mercenary on that planet would be given the death penalty. It was obvious they were in the wrong.

[Dark Dragon]

This pretty much boil down to the fact that you are comparing the Na'vi to a bunch of animals rather than other human beings. That is your personal feeling and the main reason why you can't accept the actions that Jake took. The Na'vi possess every trait that a human being would aside from their physical appearance. You can in fact re-skin them as a group of giant humans and their society would not change.

If you take this film and put it into a human settings where a group of tribals are being oppressed by a private company in order to obtain resources then would Jake's actions feel plausible? If you can't come to see why the lives of the Na'vi can be equate to humans then any further argument would be pointless.

[Ryllharu]

Your quibbling aside, I will admit I made a poor choice of words. I initially chose sapience, traditionally used in fiction to describe "human-like" qualities, but figured I'd get shit from you when you whipped out a dictionary definition.

Replace "sentient" with "sapience" in my post. It makes no difference.

[animus]

""Sentient" redirects here. For other uses, see Sentient (disambiguation).

Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. The term is used in philosophy (particularly in the philosophy of animal ethics and in eastern philosophy) as well as in science fiction and (occasionally) in the study of artificial intelligence. In each of these fields the term is used slightly differently.

In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires our respect and care. In science fiction, sentience is "personhood": the essential quality that separates humankind from machines or lower animals. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to some Western academic philosophers as "qualia".

Some advocates of animal rights argue that many animals are sentient in that they can feel pleasure and pain, and that this entails being entitled to some moral or legal rights." - Wikipedia

You an advocate then mate?

Almost every choice Jake made was the morally correct one. The only reason the mercenaries didn't proceed earlier is that the company would come under fire with bad publicity and probably intervention by the real ruling military itself.

I highly doubt if that story came to light, the company would reap in any profits.

Wikipedia annotation of sentience aside.

From the dictionary;
Sentience
–noun
sentient condition or character; capacity for sensation or feeling.

No I'm not an animal activist.

[Lucifus]

So....what, you would work the Navi like mules? Slaves?

[animus]

So....what, you would work the Navi like mules? Slaves?

No, I wouldn't. But considering that was originally the plan for them in the original plot it would've made for a better movie.

You're giving humans an awful lot of trust. You don't honestly believe that just because they saw aliens being attacked and destroying their home for a valuable ore, while hundreds of their own species died, deported, etc. that they would be scorned because of it? You'd be surprised by the amount of Americans and other people still believe the war in Iraq is still justified. Not to mention the story is going to be spun into a better light.



Aaaaaaanyways, as I said earlier I'm done. You can continue arguing how I'm wrong, but I won't reply back on it seeing as how apparently I'm completely wrong in stating that the Na'vi aren't human, and their lives do not equate to the life of a human.

[Dark Dragon]

Aaaaaaanyways, as I said earlier I'm done. You can continue arguing how I'm wrong, but I won't reply back on it seeing as how apparently I'm completely wrong in stating that the Na'vi aren't human, and their lives do not equate to the life of a human.

Never said it was wrong, but rather that it was your opinion. I simply stated that any further argument into this topic would be pointless since you can't seem to understand why some would consider the Nav'vi humans while the other can't see why you would not equate them to humans.

edit: In my previous post, i gave some example as to why others might see them as human beings.

[XanBcoo]

Aaaaaaanyways, as I said earlier I'm done. You can continue arguing how I'm wrong, but I won't reply back on it seeing as how apparently I'm completely wrong in stating that the Na'vi aren't human, and their lives do not equate to the life of a human.

The Na'vi are human by any definition other than "homo sapien". What is your argument that they're sub-human? That they have cat ears?

Anyway, it was only a matter of time before something like this happened:

http://www.learnnavi.org/

I guess this is the 2010 generation's Klingon.

Edit: And yes, my Linguistic curiosity has caused me to read through everything available on that site.

[Munsu]

Here's the trailer for the sequel, it looks awesome:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1931118

[Testarossa Autodrive]

I would totally see that.

[Sapphire]

I was actually concerned, shocked, and freaked out at the thought that there was an Avatar II trailer already. But my hopes are only increased to see the sequel. <3

[Animeniax]

I was actually concerned, shocked, and freaked out at the thought that there was an Avatar II trailer already. But my hopes are only increased to see the sequel. <3

I think they pretty much resolved everything in the first movie, and a second movie would only be a larger sky people force invading and destroying the N'avi. Unless they used the "Avatar" concept in another setting, I think a second movie would simply be for money.

[XanBcoo]

You speak like a man who's never seen Terminator 2 or Aliens.

[Sapphire]

I heard the next Avatar movie will be on a different planet.

[Animeniax]

You speak like a man who's never seen Terminator 2 or Aliens.

So would Avatar II entail time travel or would the sky people invade another planet and recruit another Avatar-pilot who goes native to save the natives?

I heard the next Avatar movie will be on a different planet.

Even on a different planet, Avatar II would be like Matrix: Reloaded: More of the Same.