Madara Danzou Debate

[RasenDori]

So now that it been revealed that Danzou had the Sharingan I'm sure that conspiracy theorist won't let that silly Danzou is Madara debate go, so let's discuss the facts presented to us here and not waist further chapter discussions on it.

So far here is what we do know that supports the Danzou = Madara theory:

They both have the sharingan in the same eye.

So far here is what we know that debunks that theory:

Danzou and Madara have opposing goals. Madara want's Konoha destroyed. Danzou protects it through twisted methods.

Madara has had a number of opportunities to kill Sasuke,but hasn't. While Danzou has had a covert mission to kill Sasuke since he left the village, and never wanted Itachi to keep him alive in the first place.

Danzou wants to recover his right arm and eye for some reason, (The eye looks fine to me) and wants to use Kabuto to obtain Orochimaru's research for this goal. Madara could have easily had access to this information while Orochimaru was a member of Akatsuki.

If I'm reading into it correctly Madara is the true possessor of the Gedo Mado statue. Meaning that he had prior knowledge of Yahiko's group, and took measures to use them as early as before Nagato went crazy. The same way that he carefully watched Sasuke's movements before he killed Orochimaru, knowing Itachi's plans and annoying deal to leave Konoha alone. Danzou was on the opposing side of the battle that essentially was the birth of Pain.

In the end if may seem obvious that Danzou is Madara (really... I don't know how it's obvious), but remember all the times that it seemed obvious that Kabuto would betray Orochimaru?

[Archangel]

Begging for a warning are we?

[RasenDori]

I don't see what wrong containing a debate that wont end into it's own threadwhen I didn't find a specific one about it.

[LobsterMagnet]

Danzou is to mandara what Darth Sidious is to Senator Palatine.

Honestly at this point I don't see how there could be any debate that Danzou isn't Mandara and it kind of makes sense in that he'd be playing both sides. Just like how Palpatine had the entire separatist fleet run to Coursesant just to kidnap himself to secure his innocence Mandara sends pein to konoah so he can finally take power which makes getting naruto a lot easier since he can keep him in the village and limit his travel.

If you need any other proof take a look at these two manga pages.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/455/17/

They both have the same hair style. If that's not enough proof in manga terms I don't know what is.

[darkmetal505]

Your thread title needs to change.

I'm thinking of it more like something is attached to his head, the eye looks out of place, sort of like Voldemort did with Quirell.

[Tyreal]

Danzou and Madara have opposing goals. Madara want's Konoha destroyed. Danzou protects it through twisted methods.

I seriously doubt the destruction of Konoha is Madara's only goal. How about World Domination? Or maybe his goal is to recreate Konoha how he wants it, and in order to recreate it how he wants it he needs to destroy it first.

Madara has had a number of opportunities to kill Sasuke,but hasn't. While Danzou has had a covert mission to kill Sasuke since he left the village.

Both the Mizukage and Danzo have simmilar methods of testing a ninja's abilities. Both these include fights to the death. Now if Madara is really the Mizukage and/or Danzo then it is possible that the attempts on Sasuke's life are more like tests. If he passes them he is proven strong, if not then he was never strong enough to be useful anyway.

and never wanted Itachi to keep him alive in the first place

I actually thought Madara wanted Itachi to keep Sasuke alive so Itachi could take his eyes in order to gain EMS? If not then why did Madara tell Itachi that the only way to get EMS was to take his brothers eyes.

Danzou wants to recover his right arm and eye for some reason, (The eye looks fine to me) and wants to use Kabuto to obtain Orochimaru's research for this goal. Madara could have easily had access to this information while Orochimaru was a member of Akatsuki.

Maybe. But what if the data was only gathered recently, say like in the 3 years where Orochimaru had almost unlimited access to an undamged Sharingan. It's been hinted at before that Madara's power isn't what it used, and knowing how much the Uchiha rely on the power of the sharingan this can be taken to mean his sharigan isn't what it used to be and has most likely become damaged (maybe in the battle with the fourth or a side effect of making the Kyuubi to attack Konoha).

If I'm reading into it correctly Madara is the true possessor of the Gedo Mado statue. Meaning that he had prior knowledge of Yahiko's group, and took measures to use them as early as before Nagato went crazy. The same way that he carefully watched Sasuke's movements before he killed Orochimaru, knowing Itachi's plans and annoying deal to leave Konoha alone. Danzou was on the opposing side of the battle that essentially was the birth of Pain.

Hmmm... could you actually clarify what your saying in that paragraph since from the sounds of it your making an argument for why Madara is Danzo not against. If Madara is the possor of the Gedo Mado statue it is more than possible that Danzo/Madara teamed up with the Rain in order to manipulate Pain and gain access to his abilities (along with reveal who the true user of the Riningen is), provided Madara/Danzo had some information linking the Riningen to someone in Yahiko's group.

In the end if may seem obvious that Danzou is Madara (really... I don't know how it's obvious), but remember all the times that it seemed obvious that Kabuto would betray Orochimaru?

I don't remember ever thinking that Kabuto would betray Orochimaru and it never seemed obvious to me. Kabuto has been and will always be a lackey until the day he dies.

[SilentSnake]

Danzou is to mandara what Darth Sidious is to Senator Palatine.

Honestly at this point I don't see how there could be any debate that Danzou isn't Mandara and it kind of makes sense in that he'd be playing both sides. Just like how Palpatine had the entire separatist fleet run to Coursesant just to kidnap himself to secure his innocence Mandara sends pein to konoah so he can finally take power which makes getting naruto a lot easier since he can keep him in the village and limit his travel.

If you need any other proof take a look at these two manga pages.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/455/17/

They both have the same hair style. If that's not enough proof in manga terms I don't know what is.

The only thing these pages show is that both Danzou and Madara are old (so nothing new really)... and that they both have a sharingan in their right eye. BUT Danzou's sharingan has got those "strain" lines in his eye, which might suggest that his eye is NOT his natural eye and is a transplant. I can't remember wether we ever saw this with Kakashi or any other sharingan user UNLESS mangekyou sharingan was used and with Danzou it's just... sharingan :P

Imo Kishi is fooling us into thinking Danzou is Madara, but I might be dead wrong of course

as for hair style - maybe they visit the same barber

EDIT: to above - you did not think Kabuto would betray Oro? Even Oro suspected Kabuto of betrayal like at least twice... First time was in chuunin arc I think, when Oro said sth like "If you want to stop me, you should do it now Kabuto" and the other time was encounter with Tsunade.

[Abdula]

Danzou wants to recover his right arm and eye for some reason, (The eye looks fine to me) and wants to use Kabuto to obtain Orochimaru's research for this goal. Madara could have easily had access to this information while Orochimaru was a member of Akatsuki.

The reason being that Danzo's right arm seems to be severely injured and his right eye, the sharingan, seems to be a transplant which means he lost his right eye at some point and we all know from Kakashi the side effects the sharingan has on someone who is not an Uchiha. Side effects that are probably even worse for a man Danzo's age.

So let's suppose that Danzo is not Madara. It would make sense that someone who was once strong enough to go toe to toe with Sarutobi when he was in his prime would want access to Orochimaru's research in order to restore his body. Someone who was that strong already wouldn't need a borrowed sharingan.

On the other hand if Danzo is Madara why would he want to restore his right arm and eye? Madara's right arm is fine and his right eye seems to be his only good eye. Also why would he risk possibly exposing himself by using the black ops to acquire Orochimaru's research data when it was previously implied that Madara's intends to use Sasuke's body or possibly just take Sasuke's eyes once he gets EMS.

Someone really needs to change the title of this thread.

[XanBcoo]

On the other hand if Danzo is Madara why would he want to restore his right arm and eye? Madara's right arm is fine and his right eye seems to be his only good eye.

Everyone who still thinks Danzo is Madara needs to read this several times over. Having a Sharingan does not mean you are Madara.

If Danzo turns out to be Madara, it will only be for the sake of using it as a plot twist. There would be so many inconsistencies and loose ends that would have to be tied up and explained for it to make any sense whatsoever.

[The Chancellor]

If Danzo turns out to be Madara, it will only be for the sake of using it as a plot twist.

Or for Kishi to be able to sleep at night.

[Barumonk]

Danzou is actually Kakashi from the future. He has come back using a variation of a summoning technique (which is entirely possible, he knows 1,000 techniques at least. Its plausable to assume there is a time-altering technique somewhere in there.) because something has gone horribly wrong and he needs to fix it by keeping Naruto in the village and protecting him for reasons unknown.

His left side is completely screwed up after a fight that occurred in the future, before he came back. Whatever happened to him twisted his view on 'protecting his friends' and turned him into Danzou as we seem him today: someone who would do damn near anything, no matter how underhanded, to defend the village.

I made more sense than this entire thread.

[Honoko]

My theory is that Danzou and Madara had a fight at some point in the past and Danzou was able to steal one of Madara's eyes, hence the reason for Madara's mask, as his face, I assume, will be revealed as horribly disfigured as well. It would also explain Danzou's screwed left side as Madara wouldn't go down without a fight.

Just throwing it out there =P

[itadakimasu]

dont they posess different sharingan eyes? one on the left, one on the right?

what if neither of them is madara, but each posesses one of madara's eyes? or we can go w\ the tobi / obito thing...

[12345p]

Danzou is to mandara what Darth Sidious is to Senator Palatine.

That is a very dangerous thought. Whilte I don't personally like it (I still like to think that Marada is Tobi reborn in Obito's body - - how? just use someone that has the power over life and death - PAINE), we can expand on you're comment alittle to explain how this could be so.

Dang, I'm not up on my Star Wars to explain this correcty, but I'll give it a shot.

Each has to play their part FULLY or be discovered that they are gunning for the same purpose. The Senator played his political lie to gain totaritarian control over the Senate. The same could be said for Madara being Danzou - lying about his arm and having bandaged his eye. After all, Danzou has been in a position where he's likely NOT had to challenge his Ninja skillset in a long, long time. And these arrands to get Orochimaru's research are just things to lead the reader and the village off the path of recognizing the truth.

Danzou doesn't even have to be Madara exactly. He could be a special shadow clone of Madara. The point here is that Madara has more than 1 life time with the Sharingran to acquire jitsu (something that Orochimaru was lusting after for some reason) and as such there really is no telling what the powers of him are.

I like the idea someone posted here in terms of why it was imperitive that Naturo stay in the village. Not for Naruto's own safety, or so that "Root" can keep an eye on him, it's so that Akatsuki can find him easily and claim the last of the the tailed beasts.

The other question was "Why kill the messenger frog?"
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/421/17/. . Of course it's easier to explain outcomes in retrospect, but I beleive that the action was done so that Paine would HAVE to turn the village practically upside down to discover Naruto's training location. If Paine had found him early (and quite likely would have), the village would not have been laid waste to and as such the Hidden Village of the Leaf would be in a very different state, as would the 5th Hokage.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/455/17/

A better comparison might be:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/17/

[Sam98034]

I like Honoko's idea best so far. Maybe Danzo and Madara previously fought and both came back damaged. Danzo took his eye in the process but injured his arm. Most likely they were working together, but Danzo betrayed him. Everything would make sense with that.

Has anyone played the brothers scenario, yet? Did we ever find out if Madara's brother died? What if Danzo and Tobi are brothers, each sharing an eye?

Btw, this is completely off subject, but why on Earth did Madara help annihilate the Uchihas? Why would he care if they rebelled? Itachi wanted peace when his clan was brooding for war, so he did what he did. But wouldn't Madara want the coup to happen so that the Uchihas could be in charge?

[Abdula]

The other question was "Why kill the messenger frog?"
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/421/17/. . Of course it's easier to explain outcomes in retrospect, but I beleive that the action was done so that Paine would HAVE to turn the village practically upside down to discover Naruto's training location. If Paine had found him early (and quite likely would have), the village would not have been laid waste to and as such the Hidden Village of the Leaf would be in a very different state, as would the 5th Hokage.


A better comparison might be:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/17/

Uh, Pain had already found out where Naruto was before he destroyed the village. He leveled the village because Tsunade pissed him off and he decided to teach her a lesson.

Most likely they were working together, but Danzo betrayed him. Everything would make sense with that.

Yeah someone threw that theory out there before.

Has anyone played the brothers scenario, yet? Did we ever find out if Madara's brother died? What if Danzo and Tobi are brothers, each sharing an eye?

Yes someone played the brothers scenario. Yes Madara's brother died.

Btw, this is completely off subject, but why on Earth did Madara help annihilate the Uchihas? Why would he care if they rebelled? Itachi wanted peace when his clan was brooding for war, so he did what he did. But wouldn't Madara want the coup to happen so that the Uchihas could be in charge?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/09/

[Sam98034]

Thanks for the reply Abdula. I get how Madara felt betrayed by his clan, but it doesn't seem that something like that would make Madara want to kill them all. The village didn't kill his parents, they just said "No, we don't want you as leader. We think you're shady." And also, it seems like they were all coming around to Madara's point of view. They figured they were being treated like 2nd class citizens, and they were.So now that the Uchiha finally agreed with him, he killed them?

The Madara character just confuses me. His goal was to strengthen his clan, then he killed them. What the heck does he have to live for now? The only thing he can do is go be a leader of someone elses clan.

[Abdula]

Actually it does make sense if you include this part.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/06/

Madara's brother had apparently just agreed to give Madara his eyes just for the sake of becoming strong enough to protect Uchiha and then the Uchiha agreed to a peace treaty with their greatest rival. Then when Hashirama was chosen as Hokage and Madara opposed him, instead of acknowledging all that Madara had done for the Uchiha and supporting him, they chastised him for the very actions he had taken to protect them. All things considered it's had to imagine anyone not feeling betrayed in such a situation, because it meant that everything he had done had been for nothing and in effect his brother had given his eyes and his life for nothing.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/13/
Yeah the Uchiha started to come around to Madara's point of view but it was only after Madara was defeated and the Konoha Military Police Force was formed that the Uchiha began realizing that Madara may have been right about the Sengu. But as Madara said, by then Uchiha had already lost too much influence so it was too late for them to do anything.

I think Madara's story is probably some of the best writing Kishimoto has ever done. I still can't say for sure whether Madara was right about the Sengu or if it was only Madara's suspicions of the Sengu and his subsequent actions that lead to the demise of the Uchiha. Regardless of whether he is Danzo or not we know the Uchiha massacre was a direct result of the Kyuubi attack sixteen years ago which Madara was responsible for, and we know that Madara himself took part in the slaughter. But it's hard to say whether something like that wouldn't have happened eventually even without Madara pulling the strings.

Actually I can say that Madara probably has had some part in every single thing that has happened in and outside of the village since he was first defeated by Hashirama but what would be the fun in that.

[poopdeville]

Madara is a known liar. He is supposed to be a confusing character. That's why ditching the Madara = Danzou theory without solid evidence is foolish. It is still logically consistent that Danzou is Madara. Or not. The story hasn't told us enough to decide one way or the other.

Here are some things that are "known" about Madara:

(1) Madara gains the MS, and establishes the Uchiha training method of killing your friend for it.
(2) Madara takes his brother's eyes to gain the EMS.
(3) Madara and Hashirama fight for Konoha.
(4) At some point between (3) and (5), Madara becomes Mizukage and institutes the Uchiha training method. That much is (more-or-less) known to be true.
(5) 100 years later, Madara attacks Konoha with the Kyuubi.
(6) Madara and Itachi kill the Uchiha, on Danzou's order (though Madara just did it for the fun of it, supposedly)
(7) Tobi joins Akatsuki, captures Sanbi, helps Deidara fight Sasuke (a little).
(8) Madara reveals himself to a few people, and starts giving Pein orders, eventually orders Pein to capture Naruto.
(9) Madara almost eats an Amaterasu from Sasuke, sent by Itachi.
(10) Madara tells parts of this story (but crucially, lies about (5) and potentially others) to Sasuke.
(11) Tells Sasuke that Pein destroyed Konoha, had intended to use Rinne Tensei for his own purposes.

(6) is probably the most interesting, for the Danzou is Madara theory. How could Madara have known about the mission and shown himself to Itachi, if Madara isn't connected to Danzou somehow? This was such a top secret mission that only Danzou, Sandaime Hokage, the Advisors, and Itachi knew about it. In fact, considering that Danzou ordered it, it might have even been a Roots mission. In this part of the story, Madara says that Itachi seeked him out.

(1) is also interesting, since Roots uses the same training methods that the Uchiha and the Land of Mist used.

Here's a summary of things "known" about Danzou:

(A) Origins unknown, age approximately 70-80, fought Sandaime Hokage for the title. Hawkish diplomacy incompatible with Senju's Will of Fire.
(B) Founded his own ANBU, called Roots, which used the Uchiha training method
(C) Joins Hanzo in destroying "proto-Akatsuki", is among the first people in the world to see Gedo Mazo.
(D) Ordered the extermination of the Uchiha (which Madara was more than happy to help with!)
(E) Itachi threatens Danzou, in order to protect Sasuke. This is told to us by Madara.
(F) Sent Sai "to kill" Sasuke
(G) Killed the messenger frog to keep Naruto out of the village
(H) Doesn't help in the fight against Pein.
(I) Has a hurt arm and a Sharingan.

(C) is an interesting connection between Danzou and Nagato, since Nagato revealed the weapon that Madara now wants to Danzou and Hanzo. (D) speaks for itself. (E) Speaks for itself. This "should" have been ultra-top secret, but for some reason Madara knows all about it. (I) Speaks for itself. Danzou has a hurt arm and a Sharingan... So does Madara. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

[XanBcoo]

It is still logically consistent that Danzou is Madara.

How can you say that? The arm and eye thing is enough on its own to throw that theory out completely.

Also it's kind of odd that Madara would sent Sasuke off to kill Madara (Danzo) in the last chapter. If the theory is true, I'd love to see Kishi write his way out of this one.