I don't think Danzou is Madara or Madara is Danzou but I really think that Danzou has a sharingan for a right eye. The way he "see" things and schemes behind the scene stinks of a sharingan user. I'm not saying he's an Uchiha but more like how Kakashi have a sharingan.
Originally Posted by Assertn
I agree, why would Kishi put so much foreshadowing over Madara and his mask just to be plain old Madara underneath the exterior? That wouldn't make any sense or logic but at the same time I understand the fact that he was suppose to be killed by the 1st and have reasons to were the mask so he can move smoothly thru his units, now the main question to which we all know the answer to, why would Kishi hide his face from the reader if we already technically seen how he look post Naruto series? He showed his face to Kisame, and he showed his face to sasuke but not to the reader? Maybe he is someone else......
I'm still wondering how did Danzo survived that day when Pein went berserk and wipe out everyone who stood there. Is it a possibility that Danzo teleported that day?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/446/13/
"The End Justify The Means"
There was a lot of talk about Tobi being Obito (mostly by people who like anagrams), but now we know that Madara is much older than Obito. Madara's face is hidden for a reason, but not because of Obito.
"Samsonlonghair - The Defender of the Oppressed And Shunned!" -Kraco
Yes it is! Madara wants Konoha destroyed, Danzou wants whats best for the village while using unorthodox methods and for the 2634982426246th time Madara sent Pain to Konoha to get Naruto and extract the Kyubii while Danzou killed that frog so that Pain cannot get Naruto and so that he cannot extract the kyubii but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo next week we`ll be arguing the same shit, maybe i should just copy this and save it for next week.
Here`s your proof, bandages, why does he has an arm hidden and an eye bandaged according to you? shit and giggles? did he lost a bet? so that the oh so smart narutards viewers don`t reallize they are the same person?
Last edited by UChessmaster; Wed, 07-08-2009 at 03:41 PM.
You cannot hope to build a better world without improving the individuals. To that end each of us must work for his own improvement, and at the same time share a general responsibility for all humanity, our particular duty being to aid those to whom we think we can be most useful. -Marie Curie
Maybe Danzo is really Anko's Father and he sent his daughter to be Orochimaru's pupil years ago. At some point this came around to bite him in the ass and he got stuck with a mutated arm. That's the real reason why he's hesitating to have Anko offed.
I don't really believe this. I just wanted to say something about Danzou that hasn't already been said three hundred times.
"Samsonlonghair - The Defender of the Oppressed And Shunned!" -Kraco
Danzou is Naruto's grandfather. His mother's father.
Danzou was made Hokage so that when Naruto becomes Hokage he will be a 3rd generation Hokage.
Another of Danzou's daughters is Sasuke's mother. Therefore Sasuke and Naruto are cousins. They will learn this when Naruto saves Sasuke from the dark side and then the two of them will become co-Hokages like the 1st and 2nd.
Madara isn't so simple a character to say he simply wants to destroy Konoha. If he wanted to destroy Konoha, he could have sicced Pein on them. (Or is that what he did?) Madara fought the First Hokage for control of Konoha. Don't you find it a bit suspicious that Roots was founded soon after, and used the same training methods as the Uchiha (murdering your friend)? Or that Madara is known to have become Mizukage, and that the Land of Mist used the same training methods as the Uchiha? I would not find it implausible to learn that Madara has been fighting the Senju for control of the village for the last hundred years, through Roots.
Madara is a known liar, and is known to have been manipulating Nagato. I'm not saying he is Danzou, but just believing him or his motives is absurd.
And after all the crap that Danzou has pulled (including the friend-murdering Roots), believing Danzou or his motives is absurd.
If Madara wanted Konoha destroyed, getting Pein to do it for him would be straightforward, merely by sending him to Konoha and ensuring that Naruto was not there at the time. Sound familiar?
"After all, I am strangely colored."
Thanks for killing your own argument? but no, i beleive he send Pain to capture Naruto, nothing else, whatever happens to Konoha is of no concern to him.
uhmmmm Uchihas never had a "method" Madara plucked his brother`s eyes, thats it, only he got EMS. If i recall correctly in Root you`re suposed to kill your brother? the mist ninjas ask you to kill your whole class, i can see a slight relation but they`re not the same method, try again.
When was it proved that he lied on anything at all?
So far he tried to make Sai kill Sasuke, wich is something Tsunade never had the balls to do but should`ve been done a long ass time ago, guess what could`ve happened? Oro could`ve gotten sas-kay`s eyes wich would lead to a ton of problems to Konoha, he also try to hide Naruto, again to the greater good of the village, if Akatsuki gets all tailed beast then all hell break loose. Danzou is the guy who takes the cold and hard decitions thus the name Roots, he does the dirty job because someone has to do it, he`s not bad, just on the wrong manga. If you think he doesn`t wants the greater good for the village in the long run, i think Naruto`s speeches have taken a tool on you.
I`m not following you... Why would Danzou/Madara want to become Hokage of a destroyed village?
You cannot hope to build a better world without improving the individuals. To that end each of us must work for his own improvement, and at the same time share a general responsibility for all humanity, our particular duty being to aid those to whom we think we can be most useful. -Marie Curie
Well, Minato confirmed that Madara was indeed controlling the Kyuubi when it attacked the village sixteen years ago. Madara denied any involvement and claimed the attack was a random act of nature.
I'm not really one to support or criticize the theories people like to throw out. Occasionally we may get a few that have enough evidence supporting them for me to entertain the idea no matter how unlikely they seem. Others are so incredibly absurd that I wonder if the person who first proposed the idea ever actually took the time to think about what they were posting.
Either way I usually go along with the general consensus unless I feel that there is no one offering an opposing opinion. Undoubtedly the threads are here just for us to discuss such things but this Danzo is Madara thing is just really tiring. Whenever a new chapter is released someone will of course scour the chapter looking for something they can present as evidence supporting the theory and then someone else will of course have to demonstrate how said evidence proves absolutely nothing and it'll go back and forth until a new chapter is released when it would begin all over again.
I suppose it's not nearly as incessant as I am portraying it but it is still just as annoying. If Danzo is Madara we'll find out eventually, if Danzo is not Madara we'll find out. Let's just stopping talking about it, for a little while at least.
That being said, I suppose I should state my own opinion right.Personally I don't think the Danzo is Madara theory is as improbable as most make it out to be. I just really dislike the idea because I think it would be lazy, uninspired writing on Kishimoto's part and if the theory proves to be true it would only serve to further tarnish Itachi and I'm not going to be a part of that.
And yes I realize I just finished asking you guys to stop talking about it
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
My main problem with the "Danzou is Madara" theory is that the people making the arguments for it are backing it up entirely with more theory and no fact. i.e. Danzou has sharingan and/or is Uchiha, Danzou is a kage bunshin, and Madara and Danzou are the same being but in two seperate bodies, just to name a few.
People are creating "facts" to fit the theory, rather than creating the theory to fit the facts.
Madara has already admitted to wanting to destroy Konoha. The Fourth Hokage has accused Madara of trying to destroy Konoha. He obviously wanted to. The question was whether he planned for it to happen now or later.
People keep trotting out the argument that Danzou killed the frog, so that Naruto wouldn't show up. And I am saying he could have done that to provoke Pein. Both are consistent with the story, and the latter is consistent with the idea that Madara is Danzou. So it doesn't prove anything about Danzou and Madara.
Very few people here are actually saying that Madara is Danzou. What people are saying is that it's wrong to rule it out. It is very plausible, especially since Madara is supposed to be the ultimate bad guy.
The Uchiha did have a training method. They had to kill their best friend to gain the MS. Only Madara was cold enough to steal his brother's eyes. Killing your best friend sounds an awful lot like what Roots does, doesn't it? (Especially when you realize Sai and that little boy weren't real brothers...) Kakashi (or maybe it was Yamato) went so far as to compare the Roots training to the Village of Mists', where they used to kill their friend. The Mist stopped doing it when Zabuza went overboard and killed everybody.uhmmmm Uchihas never had a "method" Madara plucked his brother`s eyes, thats it, only he got EMS. If i recall correctly in Root you`re suposed to kill your brother? the mist ninjas ask you to kill your whole class, i can see a slight relation but they`re not the same method, try again.
Because he would be in control of one of the strongest armies in the world? And he presumably has a lot of influence over the Land of Mist, seeing how he was a previous Mizukage. If he wants to become a world leader, becoming leader of the ninja nations is a fast way to do it. Especially since he manipulates strong guys into doing the fighting for him in order to keep his plan quiet.I`m not following you... Why would Danzou/Madara want to become Hokage of a destroyed village?
"After all, I am strangely colored."
Do we have an indication when Madara was Mizukage? If he was Mizukage during Zabuza's failed coup d'etat that would be interesting. Do you think Zabuza fought Kisame during that coup?
"Samsonlonghair - The Defender of the Oppressed And Shunned!" -Kraco
Yes. And I think it's one of the reasons Zabuza became a missing nin. Because Kisame as the strongest of the seven swordsman opened a can of whoop ass on him.
Why did he become a missing nin if his ass was whooped? Wouldn't he be dead?
Peace.
This isn't my post but a post by someone of the name ShatteredHope from another forum. But so far it is the most comprehensive and well written theory about why Danzo = Madara I've seen.
In this post, I will try to link Madara and Danzou together. It is my belief that Danzou is probably Madara in disguise. Otherwise, they are most certainly tied together very closely.
1) Knowledge of 'The Truth'
Madara says that the only people who know the truth about Itachi are the three elders, and that there is no way they would ever speak of the truth, and that that was what Itachi wanted. Madara states that Itachi doubted whether or not Madara knew. This begs the question:
If the elders were never going to tell anyone, and Itachi himself was not going to tell anyone, how exactly does Madara know?
Nobody would know the truth about Itachi if Itachi didn’t want them to. Itachi could easily justify sparing Sasuke to Madara by claiming it was for his own EMS. But how did Madara have in-depth knowledge of Itachi’s motives and his ultimately benevolent plans for both Sasuke and Konoha? Well, to put it another way, the only person who would have a clue as to Itachi’s true intentions would be Danzou, since Danzou exploited the fact that Itachi cared so much for the village and convinced him to kill his clan for it. Madara actually relates the entire story with knowledge of details of what the elders and Danzou were doing as well, for example, the fact that the Uchiha were under surveillance. His in-depth knowledge of the actions and intentions of both Itachi and the elders strongly suggests that Madara is connected with Danzou.
2) The Training
Both ANBU and the Mist village were known to employ similar methods of training; a program that culminated in a duel to the death between fraternal friends. Madara is no stranger to such an experience, as he murdered his best friend decades ago, and it did make him stronger as a ninja. For Danzou, it helped to create obedient subordinates. We know that Madara is/was the Mizukage, and that the Hidden Mist employed similar methods of training. It would seem this is Madara's own special training program.
Notice here Madara says that he was looking for an 'opportunity for war'. This choice of words is not valid if Madara is not a leader of some kind: either Mizukage or Danzou or both.
3) Itachi and Madara
Madara states Itachi was the only one who discovered that he was alive. This makes no sense whatsoever. How does Itachi, a child resident of Konoha, become enlightened with knowledge that even Jiraiya did not know to certainty? Madara wasn't exactly parading himself around Konoha for all to see. If Danzou is connected to Madara, and Danzou is Itachi's source, then it makes sense.
According to Itachi, Madara was his teacher. It is worthy of note that Madara does not mention training Itachi to Sasuke because he wouldn't want to associate himself with Danzou or with training a man knowlingly for the purpose of massacring the clan.
So, what could Itachi be talking when saying that Madara was his teacher?
Itachi was talking about none other than the notorious 'kill your friend' program. Madara/Danzou trained Itachi in two ways:
A- Madara disclosed to Itachi the secrets of the sharingan: the MS and the EMS. Itachi planned his future and that of Sasuke with this knowledge. This explains how Itachi ever came to know of the MS.
B- Madara related to Itachi his own, personal story, and trained Itachi to kill or suppress his emotions, just as Madara had to do during the days of endless battle and slaughter, when Madara even used his own friend and brother. This explains how Itachi came to know of Madara's past. An integral part of it all would have had to have been killing Shisui. Murdering Shisui, who was very close to Itachi, was important for the MS and for fighting his emotions and a taste of what was to come.
It is also important to note that there is no way Itachi left the village to be trained. It's difficult to imagine that a 13 year-old could leave the village for training every now and then, and there is no evidence to suggest so. It is more logical to think that Itachi was trained within Konoha, by Danzou/Madara. Itachi would have been spending much of his time with Danzou anyway after he was drafted into ANBU, and it is noted by the other Uchiha that Itachi's attitude changed soon after he joined the black ops. He also murdered Shisui after he joined ANBU, and this shows the Madara influence, because as explained earlier, Itachi would not have known about the MS otherwise.
4) The Massacre
We learn that in all likelihood, Danzou was the who one suggested the idea of the Uchiha massacre. Here, notice that Danzou is the only one shown in the top-left, and he is the most assertive of the elders anyway. The 3rd tried for a truce but failed. One would expect that if Danzou really did oppose the 3rd and his philosophies, that he would take sides with Uchiha and actually help them with the coup. But instead, Madara/Danzou went against the Uchiha, because he harbored hatred towards the Uchiha as well as the village. But, this isn’t all.
Not only did Madara/Danzou pass down the order for the massacre to Itachi (black ops agent), but Madara got to actively participate in the action himself. So, this is what the story is if Madara and Danzou are not linked in any way: Danzou orders the massacre, Itachi miraculously discovers Madara is still alive and then asks for his help. This is very convenient, perhaps a little too much, as Madara gets to indulge in his revenge without actively setting it up (because he was asked by Itachi), thus remaining ‘clean’ enough to get Sasuke on his side? To me, it’s more like Madara was looking for an opportunity for revenge, and when Itachi showed up, he had the means to do it. So, Danzou/Madara orders the massacre, reveals the truth about Madara to Itachi and that he should seek him for help, for both the massacre and the training (or Danzou simply reveals that he is Madara).
I am also entertaining the thought that it was Madara who manipulated the Uchiha into planning a coup d’état in the first place, thus creating a basis for the massacre. I think he could have done this in two ways:
A- Danzou could have told the Uchiha that they should overthrow the 3rd, and that his black ops division would assist them. Firstly, Danzou is firm in his opposition to the philosophy of the Hokages, as Tsunade says. We know that he actually fought the 3rd for the title as well. Therefore, the Uchiha would have seen him as a potential ally. Secondly, it has already been hinted that the Uchiha thought they had allies in ANBU.
B- Madara could have provoked the rebellion indirectly using the Fox. After unleashing the Fox, everyone grew wary of Uchiha and they were isolated by Danzou, and the 3rd opposed it.. Moreover, it was Danzou's black ops that were in charge of monitoring Uchiha. Danzou subjected Uchiha to increasing pressure and discrimination until Uchiha felt like they had no other choice but to fight for their freedom and their pride as a powerful clan. In effect, Danzou forced a rebellion, and if he really opposed the 3rd and not Uchiha, he shouldn't have discriminated against them. It is clear that had he wanted, Danzou could have avoided discriminating against Uchiha and seemed like he was giving them the benefit of the doubt after the Fox attack. He would have had the 3rd's support as well, and thus would have succeeded.
The bottom line is that Danzou/Madara could have used one or both of the above means to induce a coup d'etat.
5) Danzou's Rebellion
Danzou seems to have foreknowledge of Pains attack. The elders clearly say that Danzou said it was Akatsuki’s leader attacking.
Of course this begs the question, how did Danzou know?
The only people who should know are the remaining Akatsuki who were at the meeting. This strongly suggests a connection between Madara and Danzou.
Furthermore, Danzou seems rather well prepared for a coup, considering that Pain’s attack should have had the element of surprise. In fact, his predictions seem a little too accurate. Not only is Danzou right about Tsunade having no clue about the rebellion, but Danzou predicts that the village will avoid complete destruction because of Tsunade and Katsuya. This is remarkable. Firstly, for anyone to assume that two ninjas can actually take on an entire village is absurd; it would appear Danzou knows somewhat of the abilities of Pain. Secondly, it has played out exactly as Danzou said: Katsuya protected everyone from Shinra Tensei. Danzou's use of the words 'total annihilation' is rather odd, and it almost seems like he is predicting Shinra Tensei.
In any case, how could Danzou's actions be so well-suited for the circumstances, and his predictions so accurate, if he has no connection with Pain or Madara?
The timing of Danzou’s rebellion in relation to Itachi’s death is significant as well. We learn that Itachi warned Madara not to 'touch' Konoha, but as soon as Itachi dies, Madara says that Konoha is no longer off-limits. Madara predicted the outcome of the Itachi-Sasuke battle (as he knew 'the truth'), so he knew Itachi would die. As soon, as Itachi dies, Pain is sent to Konoha to wreak havoc, and Danzou is perfectly prepared to rebel. Again, far too convenient. Now, ROOT could have rebelled after Orochimaru’s invasion, but they didn’t, possibly because Madara did not want to take action during Itachi’s lifetime. It was an excellent opportunity though, as Konoha was left damaged and without a Kage.
So why didn't he?
Itachi threatened Madara, but with what? I think Itachi said that he would reveal that Madara was Danzou or that he was Mizukage if Madara did anything to Konoha or Sasuke. Madara says that Itachi was the only one who knew of him (perhaps Itachi was the only one who knew that Madara is Danzou). I think that Itachi could not have killed Madara by himself, otherwise there was no reason for Itachi to leave him alive in the first place and risk his brother's fate. Therefore, I found this(middle-right frame) thought of Madara's to be puzzling. But now, I think that Madara was not referring to Itachi killing him, but instead referring to Itachi revealing his identity and existence, which would eventually lead to Madara's demise at the hands of Konoha and perhaps even the Mist. Had Itachi known that Madara was aware of his secret, Itachi might have revealed the truth and endangered Madara. I also think that the reason Itachi returned to Konoha after Orochimaru's invasion was to prevent Danzou (Madara) from doing anything drastic or from becoming Hokage after the 3rd died. I believe this is how Itachi protected the village and Sasuke from Danzou.
6) 'X' Marks the Man
Last but not least, the wall behind Madara here is marked with an X, and a similar X can be found on Danzou's chin (credit to sumtheory for posting this find). The X appears just as Madara explains that he felt betrayed, almost as if marking the beginning of Madara's revenge. And now Danzou, a man heading the currently looming rebellion, is marked with it.
-----------------------------------------
In conclusion, I think that it is quite likely that Danzou is Madara. If not, then Danzou is most certainly collaborating with Madara.
Please read the spoiler below for preemptive answers to certain questions.
Q1- How can Madara be in so many places at once, and how can Madara and Danzou be of different heights?
1) Madara can be in distant places in a short space of time, thanks to his teleportation ST-jutsu. However, this is not even an issue in Narutoverse because of the shadow clone technique. As yet, no limitations of the technique are known with respect to duration or distance. Yamato used a cloning technique at quite a distance, and even managed to demonstrate communication between clones.
2) In a world where little boys can transform into mature women, appearance is not an issue. A simple henge is all Madara needs to turn into a decrepit Danzou.
Q2- If Madara is Danzou, why did he send Sai to kill Sasuke given Madara's interest in Sasuke?
1) To test Sasuke’s development. Note that Danzou sent the strongest person in Sasuke’s generation.
Furthermore, notice that when Sasuke breaks Sai’s technique, Sai immediately remarks upon Sasuke’s strength.
However, this is not all. Madara may also have used Deidara for the same purpose. He himself helped Deidara in the fight. After the fight, Madara expresses his acknowledgement to Pain, saying that Sasuke will surpass Itachi, almost as if the fight with Deidara was a means to test Sasuke.
Madara’s reiterates his interest in Sasuke here.
Furthermore, Madara reaffirms his faith in Sasuke's ability before and after the fight with the 8-tails. Again, Madara could have captured the 8-tails himself, but I think he was interested in Sasuke's performance.
2) Another reason Madara may have done it was so that Sasuke wouldn't suspect Danzou is Madara. It is clear that Sasuke desires to kill Danzou and the advisors after hearing Madara's story. If Sasuke were to find out that he was Danzou and that he had the major hand in the massacre, Sasuke would obviously go after Madara instead of collaborating with him.
Q3- Why does Danzou prevent Naruto from returning if he is Madara?
1) It is uncertain whether or not Madara actually wants Pain to get a hold of the 9-tails. Madara here tells Pain failure will not be accepted. Konan says he is invincible, and Madara simply smirks. The only person to know of the Fox’s true power is Madara, and Pain is clearly astounded. Minato says Madara is using Pain. Pain may even be aware of this, and perhaps Nagato this frame which hints at Nagato crying right after Madara leaves is evidence of that.
Madara hasn’t availed opportunities to capture Naruto earlier, and Madara clearly promises Sasuke one of the bijuus. Now, at the time, 7 had been sealed, and Sasuke was supposed to bring the 8-tails to be sealed. By elimination, only the 9-tails is left, and it is no coincidence that the MS can control the Fox either. Thus, I believe Madara is not true to his word with Pain.
Therefore, if Madara wanted the Fox back he could have had it, but he is using Pain (as Minato said) for a different end; setting up the coup. I do not doubt that Madara will want the Fox back at some point, but it hasn't been the priority, and not for a long time, which is why Madara did not fight to protect it from Minato 16 years ago.
2) One less strong ninja means that there would be more damage by Pain, and an easier ensuing coup as well. I do not think Danzou is an idiot: he won't expect Naruto to become his puppet, but instead be well aware, like the rest of the village (chapter 426) that Naruto has inherited the Will of Fire and will, if anything, oppose his rebellion. Therefore, Danzou is not keeping Naruto away from Konoha because he believes that he can use Naruto after Pain is gone, but there is another reason, and Madara has already acknowledged Naruto as a ninja here and he would know of the Fox's power as well. Thus, keeping Naruto away would have been important for the coup to go smoothly.
Q4- If Danzou wants to be Hokage, then why would he want Sasuke to attack the village?
1) By creating a common enemy in Danzou, and by having him become Hokage so that Sasuke cannot easily reach him and kill him, he has created a means to continue manipulating Sasuke.
Kisame states that the ‘higher-ups’ will be shielded by others. Now, Danzou is attempting to become the highest-up by becoming Hokage. Madara states that Akatsuki are not powerful enough to destroy Konoha, and since the objectives of Akatsuki and Hawk coincide, they should work together. He then immediately reveals to Zetsu that he has Sasuke on his side; by having a common target, Madara believes he has Sasuke on his side.
Yeah... maybe I'll read that when I'm done with the book I'm currently reading.
But, you just did a disservice to the forum. I wanted these people who have no legitimate reason to believe that Danzou=Madara to explain why they believe the theory (which none have been able to do yet) and not just repeat something that someone else had said.
People should be thinking for themselves, but instead they are just going to spit back what you just copied and pasted every time this comes up now.
From memory I was one of the first people to post the idea that Danzo was Madara on this forum. I've also made many (but not all) of the arguments in that copied post on this forum before long before I found the post (eg. in response to the common questions such as why Madara would set himself up as a target and why Danzo would kill the frog if he was), althought I'll admit I failed to make the connection between the timing of the attack on Konoha and Itachi's death.
My point is almost all the points made in the copied post have been made on this forum before in previous threads in response to some sort of criticism about the theory (in fact many of them have been made serveral times and we've just gone around in circles in realtion to the argument about Danzo being or not being Madara).
Yup. Tyreal is one of the few people I remember that have actually argued that Danzou is Madara. Most of the rest are either trying to debunk him with spurious arguments, or (like me) interested observers who like calling BS on spurious arguments. Of course, the counter-counter-arguers are going to use "theory" to discuss the topic.
Like when people complained that it would be impossible for the two of them to be in the same place together... Not in Naruto-land, because of Kage Bunshin.
Or when people complained that Danzou killed the frog, "proving" that Madara is not Danzou. Or does it? (It does not)
Look at the structure of what is happening here. Someone posts a theory that Madara is Danzou (the argument). People say, "For the thousandth time!! Danzou can't be in the same place as Madara/Danzou killed the frog!" (the counter-argument) Somebody posts a "theoretical" post explaining why Madara would want to keep Pein and Naruto apart (counter-counter argument). The counter-counter argument does not have to be "true". It just has to be CONSISTENT WITH THE STORY, and it destroys the validity of the counter-argument. If the counter-counter argument succeeds in invalidating the counter-argument, the first argument is shown to NOT BE INVALID ON THE BASIS OF THE COUNTER-ARGUMENT. The counter-argument has not proven anything (AT ALL), because it is SPURIOUS.
In fact, the counter-counter arguments don't prove anything either. All they show is that people are making big/false assumptions in their counter-arguments. The counter-counter arguments don't validate or invalidate the original theory, either.
Here's an example: Somebody says "The car outside my house is GREEN." Somebody else says, "NO WAY, it can't be GREEN, because it HAS TO BE RED". And a third person says "Cars don't have to be RED. Cars can be ANY COLOR" Well, the second person has to STFU, because they are wrong about cars HAVING to be RED. Therefore, their argument is SPURIOUS. On the other hand, the third argument is consistent with the claim that the car is RED or GREEN or BLUE. It has no bearing on the first argument, except that it does not invalidate it." It does not commit the third person to believing that the first person's car is GREEN. All it means is that the third person caught the second person assuming too much.
Now, if somebody posts a counter-argument that isn't spurious, the theory will have to be abandoned. Until then, people interested in debunking the theory are going to have to keep trying. They should probably stop complaining about it too, since they appear to bring the theory up a lot. And people like me are going to be reading very carefully.
The known counter-arguments to the theory are spurious, as Tyreal has indicated. The theory itself, and the "theoretical" counter-counter arguments are separate issues. Sidnne appears to be conflating these, since he demanded that the counter-counter arguers explain why they think Danzou is Madara. But he merely needs an introduction to basic logic. Not surprising. He's a fucking idiot.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
You post all that crap and then have gall to say this.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt before and I was hoping you were just drunk or high or had just finished bashing your head against the wall a few times or something but you're really starting to make me wonder. The sad thing is you really could have made a good point if you had tried.or maybe you did try. If so, you failed miserably.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Huh? I just explained what has been going on. It was essentially the same thing you said, the other day -- with an eye towards answering Sidnne's challenge to "think for myself" and explain "why the people arguing that Danzou is Madara" belive so.
Sidnne doesn't understand notions like "burden of proof", or even where he stands when he denies an argument, or when somebody undermines his counter argument.
If you really have a problem with the basic rhetorical notions I have spelled out, you should read a book. I suggest E.J. Lemmon's Beginning Logic.
Last edited by poopdeville; Fri, 07-10-2009 at 11:31 PM.
"After all, I am strangely colored."
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