Naruto Chapter 452

[poopdeville]

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

The Third Hokage was like 12. The Fourth Hokage wasn't much older than Naruto.

I find it strange to call people who train constantly and win basically every fight they get in "soft". Maybe that's just me. Konoha is strong enough to defend its will of fire. Indeed, that is what the will of fire is. The will to defend Konoha's way of life.

Orochimaru had different thoughts on the matter, and look where it got him. Yup, assholes like Orochimaru like to "make things happen". And Konoha was stronger than him. That is the point of maintaining a strong peaceful military -- to have the ability to defend oneself from attack. Someone stronger than Orochimaru could have fucked Konoha up good. But that's true whether Konoha was attacking or defending.

Consider this scenario: Konoha goes to war against an unknown force. If this was a war of aggression, would Konoha's their ninjas suddenly going to become stronger? No, of course not. So the risk of winning and losing is the same, whether they attack or defend.

At best, they win and are hated. At worst, they LOSE THE WAR, and are in a much worse political position relative to the other countries.

Compare this to the scenario when Konoha doesn't go to war of aggression. At best, nothing at all happens. In the middle (on the bad side), an unknown force attacks. At worst, they LOSE THE WAR and are fucked politically just the same as if they had attacked.

On the other hand, espionage is a much lesser evil, and (relatively speaking) a good thing in this context. I would like to see more of that, from everybody.

Either way a war starts, Konoha has to fight for its life and survival. Wars of aggression unnecessarily leave Konoha open to risk of losing. For basically no gain.

Edit: there is also another concrete reason to dislike Danzou (or even suspect he is Madara). Danzou is using the same training methods that Madara and the Hidden Mist Village use/used -- killing your friend to gain power, a practice Madara instituted in both the Uchiha clan and the Mist.

[Archangel]

The Third Hokage was like 12. The Fourth Hokage wasn't much older than Naruto.

Where do you come up with this stuff? O_o

[Death BOO Z]

it's a common misconception. people believe that the scene in the 3rd's flashback (when he sees the light in the past and the first and second hokage tell him to take care of the village) really happened, ant that it wasn't a 'dream' symbolic sequence.

sure, I can't bring evidence that it is a dream. but I think it's more logical than saying they trusted a kid with the position (so when did he find the time to train Jiraya, Tsunade and Orochimaru if he was Hokage so young?)

[XanBcoo]

If Sasuke is a missing nin now, shouldn't Konoha take it upon themselves to hunt him down and dispose of him? Why is it simply a matter of giving the clound ninjas permission to kill Sasuke? Do they want the secrets of the Sharingan to fall into the hands of a rival village.

This bugs the crap out of me too, but it was addressed by the Raikage earlier on. So at least we know it's not an oversight by Kishimoto (that is to say, he's aware of the confusing double standard regarding the Sharingan and Byakugan).

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/417/13/

Hopefully more will be revealed next chapter to explain why Danzo is willing to let the Sharingan potentially fall into the hands of enemies.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession.

That paradox has been a major theme in this manga from the very beginning, hasn't it? Way back in the Zabuza arc when Naruto decided he wanted to become a "ninja in his own way" as opposed to being a tool used for war.

I think that's why I'm leaning towards accepting Danzo as a figure of power. It's Kishimoto's "realistic" leader among a village of idealists.

[The Chancellor]

The Third Hokage was like 12. The Fourth Hokage wasn't much older than Naruto.

?? He was at least in his early to mid 20's. That's not much older than Naruto to you?

[darkshadow]

You guys need to stop debating that BS, the only proof we have about when he became hokage was that flashback, and no naruto flashback up till now was just some symbolic shit that never happened. They all happened.

Sandaime was the youngest hokage ever and he became it around ~12, remember he was one of the most powerful ninja in history and the most powerful hokage to date. Kakashi was how old again when he became a jounin? Exactly, he and Itachi were killing jounin before naruto even became a genin.
And they weren't even close to the level Sarutobi was in his prime, not even remotely close, so stop doubting that this "kid" couldn't have become it.

Kage is simply the most powerful ninja in the village, even after he reassumed the position he still had the military advisors etc.., so as a kid he would've surely had at least one person to guide him.

[samsonlonghair]

Kage is simply the most powerful ninja in the village

That's what we've been led to believe so far. The upcoming jounin vote has me rethinking everything. If the Jounins have to vote to keep the Daimyo's appointment as Hokage, then maybe it's more complicated then that.

Hypothetically, if the Daimyo might have appointed an unsavory character like Orochimaru after Yondaime died, the Jounins would have probably voted him down. So who would have become Hokage? Do the Jounins get to elect someone else?

[Patriot]

I don't know man I'm wondering if you read my posts?

My Bad sorry, I sometimes skip your essays, but for the most part I do agree with what you say.

As for the will of fire thing, its mainly there as a tool. How else to you convince people to lay down their lives for the villiage? Some people are motivated my money, others by reputation, and some believe they need a higher calling, say the protection of their villiage.

The will of fire philosophy is to keep people fighting if you ask me. I believe what I believe in and I can kill you or die to make sure my way is the correct way.

Worked in pretty much all of history.

[XanBcoo]

Sandaime was the youngest hokage ever and he became it around ~12

I must have forgotten where either of these facts were stated.

I assume DBZ was referring to this scene, in which case, the only thing that can be inferred is that Sarutobi became Hokage after he trained the Sannin (since the pictures are shown in chronological order), or at least until he was old enough to grow facial hair. Sarutobi is also shown training the sannin in a flashback, and he doesn't seem to be Hokage there, and he certainly is much older than 12 years old.

Kage is simply the most powerful ninja in the village.

Clearly not, as we just saw a meeting concerning the qualifications for becoming Hokage two chapters ago, and "power" barely came up as criteria.

Also that one dude said "Minato was even younger" meaning the 4th is probably regarded as the "young Hokage". Pretty sure if Sarutobi had been 12, that would have come up.

[Archangel]

I must have forgotten where either of these facts were stated.

I assume DBZ was referring to this scene, in which case, the only thing that can be inferred is that Sarutobi became Hokage after he trained the Sannin (since the pictures are shown in chronological order), or at least until he was old enough to grow facial hair. Sarutobi is also shown training the sannin in a flashback, and he doesn't seem to be Hokage there, and he certainly is much older than 12 years old.

I think it's more because of this

To which i would reply that this would make much more sense if you interpreted it as a dream, a compilation of events that took place in his life instead of a flashback

Seriously... a 12 yr old hokage??

[darkshadow]

@Xan
Perhaps you should read a little further next time:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/14/

Qualifications for hokage?
Sure, but that was just because of the daimyo being intimidated by Danzou, and I'm sure Danzou isn't weak, heck we don't know how strong he is. But perhaps I should rephrase, 9 out of 10 times ( so in most cases ), the Kage is the most powerful ninja in the village.

And Arch no, Sarutobi was clearly remembering something Shodai and Nidaime told him, read the previous page over a couple of times.

[Archangel]

Was there really a need to post my page again...

And i doubt they said that to him at the same time. It would make more sense and have more meaning if they've each told him that during their reigns as hokages

[XanBcoo]

@Xan
Perhaps you should read a little further next time:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/14/

Ah, see that's why I assumed I must have forgotten something. I have literally no recollection of this scene.

In any case it is possible to interpret it as Archangel did above, where the first and second Hokage's advice are offered during their respective reign (since the first is speaking as if he is currently the Hokage). Not totally likely, but still possible. It's pretty vague, I'm just surprised it was never really specifically stated.

I have no trouble believing that Kakashi was about 15 or 16 when he became a jounin, but having a 12 year old leading a country is still hard to swallow. I guess the evidence is there though...

[darkshadow]

@Arch
When I was typing it up, your post wasn't there yet, I added the "and Arch no" part right after I saw your post.

@Xan
Being a Kage is permanent, Shodai was still Hokage when he appointed Nidaime, same with Sandaime -> Yondaime. They just weren't the village leaders anymore.
Also no it makes more sense for them both to say something so meaningful right before breaking the big news to him, kind of like a graduation speech of some sorts.
Plus like I said, he didn't really have to lead the country all by himself, there are plenty of advisors around a Kage that help/guide.

And iirc, the databook ages were:
Kakashi age 5 -> genin -> age 6 chuunin -> age 13 jounin
Itachi age 7 -> genin -> age 8 mastery of sharingan -> age 10 chuunin -> age 13 anbu captain (jounin?)
Yondaime age 10 -> genin -> younger then kakashi is now (30) Hokage.

[The Chancellor]

And iirc, the databook ages were:
Kakashi age 5 -> genin -> age 6 chuunin -> age 13 jounin
Itachi age 7 -> genin -> age 8 mastery of sharingan -> age 10 chuunin -> age 13 anbu captain (jounin?)
Yondaime age 10 -> genin -> younger then kakashi is now (30) Hokage.

You have to be a jounin to be an Anbu captain. In fact, I think all of the anbu are jounin level.

[Patriot]

You have to be a jounin to be an Anbu captain. In fact, I think all of the anbu are jounin level.

Makes me laugh how all Anbu are jounin level and are like cannon fodder but Genin are able to defeat the ones who kill Anbu.

[Archangel]

You have to be a jounin to be an Anbu captain. In fact, I think all of the anbu are jounin level.

I don't think this has ever been verified

[TwisT]

Wasn't the people that was with Anko when they watched the tape from the second chunin exam and Gaara had finished in a record time and they where commenting on it, ANBU? If i remember correctly one of them thought to himself "It would be impossible for me, no, for any chunnin to go threw the whole forest of death with out getting a signle scratch". That indicate to me that he was a chunin. But maybe it's just me remembering wrong. Gonna go look for those manga pages and see if it really was like that.

EDIT: Found it. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/58/05/ . Seems like that dude was not an ANBU.