Naruto Chapter 452

[Abdula]

Which is really too bad, since I really did like Danzo before, and I thought he could take the series into a new level.

I still like Danzo and I think this series would have been a lot better if Danzo was given a bigger role earlier.

all that may be true, but it still doesn't explain why when other ninjas were fighting and dying for their country (village) Danzo was hiding in an underground hole.


special note, he, one of the village elders, was hiding and allowed Tsunade (the hokage, he's superior) to die in battle. and did he try to save the kids and the helpless people of the village? no. he made sure his personal guard doesn't fight.

that's the fine line between being a realist (making sure that the village as a concept can survive after the attack) and being a asshole.

I don't blame Danzo at all for not helping when Pain was attacking the village, it was a losing battle and not helping her did further his goal of becoming hokage.

Tsunade's not dead, no one died, besides the Hokages seem to like to play the role of the sacrificial lamb.

Call him an asshole if you want but in a series filled with idealistic characters, Danzo is refreshing.

[Death BOO Z]

I don't blame Danzo at all for not helping when Pain was attacking the village, it was a losing battle and not helping her did further his goal of becoming hokage.

Further his goal of becoming hokage? wasn't that the entire point of argument?

Danzo cares about himself (and his position of power) first and the village later. I don't mind all the other things (I pretty much agree with your stance about them), but when things got real and the village needed every last one of them to fight Payne, Danzo seemed to welcome the invasion as something that would bring him to power.

actually, here, on the spot, new theory. Danzo knew how strong Naruto would get from sage training, and didn't want Naruto to stop Payne. in fact, Danzo wanted Payne to kill Tsuande and all the other ninjas, and then danzo could manipulate Naruto and use him as a puppet under the guise of "new hokage wanting to avenge the death of the former leader". and because Danzo knew that Naruto could stop Payne (or even because he knew Payne would only go after Naruto) he killed the messenger frog.

in short: Danzo didn't have any problems sacrificing the entire village just to protect the 'greater good' of the village, which is Naruto. on the other hand, he didn't seem so willing to put his life on the line for the village.


I never said he's a bad character, just that he's a bad person, and a bad choice for hokage, as he puts his personal interests before those of the village.

[poopdeville]

Which is really too bad, since I really did like Danzo before, and I thought he could take the series into a new level.

Yes, it would have been bad ass if he fought Pein alongside Naruto, using lots of Hokage level techniques. You would expect the Hokage to be able to keep up with Naruto and Pein. And it would have been cool to see how they interact.

The choice to make Danzou Hokage is entirely political. Whether Danzou is Hokage or not, Naruto is in the village to save the day. Unfortunately, Danzou's hawkish policy is going to lead Konoha to war.

[Abdula]

Man I feel like smacking you upside the head DBZ

Further his goal of becoming hokage? wasn't that the entire point of argument?

Danzo cares about himself (and his position of power) first and the village later.

I think you've got Danzo all wrong. Danzo seems the genuinely care about the village however he believes that the village's leaders are weak and the village as a whole would be much safer if he was hokage, and frankly I agree with him. The other two elders seemed to be entirely too self absorbed and Tsunade is too soft, too naive, too idealistic and entirely too emotional to be a good leader.

actually, here, on the spot, new theory. Danzo knew how strong Naruto would get from sage training, and didn't want Naruto to stop Payne. in fact, Danzo wanted Payne to kill Tsuande and all the other ninjas, and then danzo could manipulate Naruto and use him as a puppet under the guise of "new hokage wanting to avenge the death of the former leader". and because Danzo knew that Naruto could stop Payne (or even because he knew Payne would only go after Naruto) he killed the messenger frog.

Lol

in short: Danzo didn't have any problems sacrificing the entire village just to protect the 'greater good' of the village, which is Naruto. on the other hand, he didn't seem so willing to put his life on the line for the village.

Yeah I'm sure he got all those injuries from not putting his life on the line. In a war there will always be sacrifices and sacrificing yourself is absolutely meaningless if it changes nothing.

I never said he's a bad character, just that he's a bad person, and a bad choice for hokage, as he puts his personal interests before those of the village.

What the hell does being a good person have to do with being a good leader? Come on DBZ Naruto hasn't gotten to you that much has he. Btw Danzo may not be a 'good" person but he is a much better leader than Tsunade.

You talk about Danzo putting his personal interests above those of the village what about Tsunade. What about Tsunade not acknowledging Sasuke as a missing nin when he betrayed the village and left to go join Orochimaru. What about sending Naruto, Sakura, Yamato and Sai to try and capture the akatsuki spying working for Orochimaru. Don't you think such a mission which I'm sure was S class would warrant sending in not only a larger group of people but far stronger and more experienced minjas as well, since they were likely to encounter Orochimaru.

Hell what about sending Naruto on missions where the objective was to intercept Akatsuki. Yeah send your trump card into the hands of the very people who are trying to capture him. The situation with the sand I can understand but sending Naruto and company out to try to capture Itachi in the hopes of him leading them to Sasuke. What the hell was that about .

Or how about calling Naruto back to the village to fight Pain before she knew his training was complete. Having faith in people is not a bad thing, and if she knew he had already completed his training then it would have been fine. But going against the elders and calling Naruto back to the village without knowing how far his training had progressed simply because she believed in him is utterly foolish. Those are all example of Tsuande putting her personal beliefs and her own interests before those of the village.

Unfortunately, Danzou's hawkish policy is going to lead Konoha to war.

Right and there was no conflict during the reigns of any of the previous hokages right? Madara didn't attack the village during the Shodai's reign? Sarutobi wasn't Hokage during the third great ninja war? The very same war in which Nagato's parents were killed and this madness started. Madara didn't attack the village again when Minato was Hokage? The Uchiha didn't plan a coup during the third's second reign, and the Sound and Sand villages didn't attack konoha during the third's reign either right? The village wasn't just annihilated under Tsunade's watch?

My point, war is inevitable. Wasn't the goal of Pain's entire plan to bring peace. As long as there are ninjas, as long as there are people there will be war. The ninja villages themselves exist for the sake of fighting those wars. Pain's goal was to gather all the bijuu and use their power to create a weapon powerful enough to basically be a deterrent to war itself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/16/

Again the point is, War is inevitable. There will always be war and under Danzo the village will certainly be aware of that truth and thus more prepared for it and more capable of dealing with it. At the very least more than they were when Tsunade was in charge.

Now that I think about it, Naruto and Danzo are a nice contrast.

[poopdeville]

Again the point is, War is inevitable. There will always be war and under Danzo the village will certainly be aware of that truth and thus more prepared for it and more capable of dealing with it. At the very least more than they were when Tsunade was in charge.

Now that I think about it, Naruto and Danzo are a nice contrast.

I agree regarding the nice contrast.

I think Kishimoto's point is that imperialism is bad... Wars of aggression gain the Feudal Lord territory, and the Hokage power, but at the cost of hatred by others. That breeds yet more war.

On the other hand, after the Sand/Sound's plan failed, the Sand totally capitulated. After the Akatsuki plan failed, the Rain totally capitulated. A war of self defense only leads to hatred if the defender lets it. Ergo, the key to peace in the ninja world is be to maintain a strong, peaceful military, so that no one will gain from an attack.

Tsunade wasn't the best fighter or Hokage, but you underestimate her. She created the Shotai Nidame or whatever to hunt down Akatsuki. That's far more than the Cloud or Sand did. She kept capable Jounin or Jiraiya with Naruto at all times, except when he was on Mt. Toad. As for Sasuke, he is still potentially a military asset, and she thinks Naruto can bring him back. (I personally think he's ANBU, but let's not go there)

[RasenDori]

jeez... page 10 was the worst splash page composition ive every seen kishimoto do ...

[Spaceaprion]

Not all of the Uchiha were in on the revolt. From what we've seen, it was actually only a small part. So for Danzo to execute the whole clan for the workings of a few would be like killing all Somalian's because a few are Pirates.

Also, a quality of being a good leader is having people trust you and your judgment. Who trusts Danzo? Hell, even his brainwashed lackey Sai is having doubts.

[samsonlonghair]

This is all leading to one eventuality. We'll see Sai kill Danzo. One way or another it's going to happen. It practically has to happen. Sai has to discover that Danzo killed Shin or ordered him killed. Otherwise all this buildup is pointless.

[Abdula]

I agree regarding the nice contrast.

I think Kishimoto's point is that imperialism is bad... Wars of aggression gain the Feudal Lord territory, and the Hokage power, but at the cost of hatred by others. That breeds yet more war.

Yeah I got that point, Pain has mentioned it a number of times here for example. I didn't mention it because I didn't think it was necessary. The other side to that argument is that for the ninja villages themselves to exist war or more precisely conflict is necessary. Ninjas fight it's what they do and for ninjas to prosper there has to be war. That is another thing Pain has mentioned, the only reason the five main villages are able to survive in this peaceful time is because they have very large countries supporting them.

On the other hand, after the Sand/Sound's plan failed, the Sand totally capitulated. After the Akatsuki plan failed, the Rain totally capitulated. A war of self defense only leads to hatred if the defender lets it. Ergo, the key to peace in the ninja world is be to maintain a strong, peaceful military, so that no one will gain from an attack.

The outcome of the war is irrelevant. I only mentioned those incidents because you made it seem as if Konoha was going to be involved in a war simply because Danzo was Hokage and my point was that regardless of who the hokage is, there will always be conflict. As to the second part of that quote I would agree but peace in the ninja world is just an ideal it's not realistic. What you're suggesting is exactly the situation we saw in the beginning of the series. Orochimaru mentioned that in such a situation the ninjas themselves would become weak and soft(mentally) and that someone else would inevitably take advantage of that weakness. Or someone like him would come along and create conflict simply because they "like to see things in motion."

Tsunade wasn't the best fighter or Hokage, but you underestimate her. She created the Shotai Nidame or whatever to hunt down Akatsuki. That's far more than the Cloud or Sand did. She kept capable Jounin or Jiraiya with Naruto at all times, except when he was on Mt. Toad. As for Sasuke, he is still potentially a military asset, and she thinks Naruto can bring him back. (I personally think he's ANBU, but let's not go there)

I don't underestimate Tsunade, I give credit where credit is due. I acknowledge what she did and what she tried to do but she herself seemed to acknowledge that she doesn't measure up to the Hokages who came before her and that is the truth.

As for Sasuke, risking the safety of the entire village by allowing Orochimaru to get his hands on that potential military asset is just bad decision making. Protecting that asset even after he tried to kill the village's greatest asset i.e. Naruto twice, is just inexcusable. If Sasuke had attacked the village with or without Orochimaru while Tsunade was still Hokage what would she have done? Ordered the ninjas to try to delay him and his group without hurting him while Naruto tries to use his friendship power on Sasuke after he failed what three times.

Not all of the Uchiha were in on the revolt. From what we've seen, it was actually only a small part. So for Danzo to execute the whole clan for the workings of a few would be like killing all Somalian's because a few are Pirates.

Where did you get this from? The Uchiha were Konoha's police force so the vast majority of them by default were involved in planning the coup. Secondly Madara implied that Sasuke was the only Uchiha who didn't know about the coup and that was because he was too young and we know from his many flashbacks that he was the only Uchiha in his age group.

Also, a quality of being a good leader is having people trust you and your judgment. Who trusts Danzo? Hell, even his brainwashed lackey Sai is having doubts.

Can't argue that but all things considered that seems rather insignificant at this point. I'll say that Danzo isn't really suited to lead Konoha (the people) because his philosophy and way of doing things is drastically different from that of the previous hokages. All his questionable actions aside, that alone would be enough to cause a huge rift in konoha when word of him becoming hokage gets out. But we all know Danzo isn't going to be hokage for very long.

Btw another thing you guys seem to be overlooking and something I know Naruto probably won't understand is that Danzo gave permission to dispose of Sasuke not just for his own interests but to protect the village. If it was Tsunade, if she was using her head she would have done the same thing. Now that Sasuke has joined Akatsuki and attacked an allied village and the other villages have finally decided to make a stand against Akatsuki she would have no choice but to label Sasuke a missing-nin. If not she would just be defending an Akatsuki member and alienating Konoha.

Oh and I hope you didn't take the you're a dick thing seriously. It was all in jest.

This is all leading to one eventuality. We'll see Sai kill Danzo. One way or another it's going to happen. It practically has to happen. Sai has to discover that Danzo killed Shin or ordered him killed. Otherwise all this buildup is pointless.

I'd like to go along with that because Danzo becoming Hokage pretty much guarantees that he is going to be killed and Kishi isn't going to let Sasuke dirty his hands. But I don't think it's going to have anything to do with Sai's brother though and if it was up to me I wouldn't have Sai be the one to kill Danzo. I'm all for poetic justice and I've got one scenario in mind that would be a very fitting end for Danzo. Naturally I'm not going to share.

Oh and since this is our first interaction I guess I should welcome you back to the forums. I joined after you had already stopped posting but I lurked a lot back when you were active here and I do remember you.

[samsonlonghair]

Surely that light-haired Kumogakure Ninja lady is somewhere nearby. The first two wouldn't rush into a fight without her (unless she's as useless as Sakura always is).

Twice during this chapter Kishimoto mentions the upcoming elections in Konoha. I had no idea Konoha was a republic. Since Danzo is a man notorious for shady deeds (shady even by ninja standards), I'll assume that he has some trick up his sleeve for election day. Hanging chad no jutsu!

Thanks for the welcome Abdula. If you remember me, you may remember that I'm nearly always wrong when I make predictions.
"I'm certain Sasuke will be a chuunin at the end of these exams."
"Chouji is dead for sure"
"Lee is just now going in for treatment. He can't recover in time to fight Kimimaro."
"I bet Naruto will be the one to kill Itachi. That'll piss Sasuke off"
"No, I doubt there will be a time jump."
I can't think of a single prediction I ever got right.

[Abdula]

"Chouji is dead for sure"

We all got screwed with that one.

[Spaceaprion]

either way you look at it, Kakashi would make a better Hokage than either of them. He's probably the perfect mix of Danzo and Tsunade.

At this rate, Naruto will never become Hokage. He's pretty much the strongest ninja in the village we know of and no one even gives him a first thought when selecting a new Hokage.

[Death BOO Z]

At this rate, Naruto will never become Hokage. He's pretty much the strongest ninja in the village we know of and no one even gives him a first thought when selecting a new Hokage.

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

[Tyreal]

Surely that light-haired Kumogakure Ninja lady is somewhere nearby. The first two wouldn't rush into a fight without her.

I'm expecting her to show up and reveal to the two that just attacked Naruto that Naruto was the one that defeated Pain and that getting into a fight with Konoha's hero is probably a bad idea for the political relations between the Cloud and the Leaf.

[darkshadow]

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

Well sandaime was like 12 >_>, but anyway doesn't 9th hokage sound kinda fitting for naruto? Having kyuubi and all..
That would mean Kakashi 7th, someone else 8th, Naruto 9th. Far fetched I know.

[Patriot]

To be leader, you have to balance political battles with real battles, the President of the United States is the leader of the U.S and the policies he dictates shape the world, same with Konoha... For all intents and purposes Konoha is a military force, and their policies and the balances they bring affect all 5 nations. Tsunade never wanted to be the Hokage but was sought out because she knew how to balance the political strife and military might of Konoha. The only soft spot she had was for Naruto and in turn Naruto convinced her that he could bring back Sasuke. We are all assuming that with this new information, that Tsunade herself wouldn't have done the same as Danzo.

Give it some time, we will see if the policies started by Danzo are really in line with the good of the villiage or will it lead it to further ruin. Because it can't be good policy to let other countries kill your elite Ninja either...

[Splash!]

If Sasuke is a missing nin now, shouldn't Konoha take it upon themselves to hunt him down and dispose of him? Why is it simply a matter of giving the clound ninjas permission to kill Sasuke? Do they want the secrets of the Sharingan to fall into the hands of a rival village.

If the sharingan is as great as it is, I wonder if anyone made an attempt to salvage the eyes of all those Uchiha that were massacred by Itachi. Somebody should have put in more effort into researching Sharingan transplantation, given Kakashi's success with it. A transplanted sharingan may not be as good as the real deal, but it seems alot better than no Sharingan at all.
And to think all this sort of research would be right up Orochimaru's alley.Looking back, Konoha has really let some of their most valuable assets just walk away. It does bring into question the credibility of past leaderships. I wonder how a guy like Danzou would have handled it all.
Konoha in the past seems to have been handled more like a goodwill brotherhood than a true ninja village. They are supposed to be in the military business. What matters most is getting stronger, not upholding moral values. The countries don't rely on ninja villages to teach them to be more virtuous, I believe they have temples and priests for that.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession. I wonder if ninja villages allow people with other dreams and aspirations to leave the village.

[UChessmaster]

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

Gaara

[darkshadow]

Konoha in the past seems to have been handled more like a goodwill brotherhood than a true ninja village. They are supposed to be in the military business. What matters most is getting stronger, not upholding moral values. The countries don't rely on ninja villages to teach them to be more virtuous, I believe they have temples and priests for that.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession. I wonder if ninja villages allow people with other dreams and aspirations to leave the village.

Isn't that what Konoha is pretty much all about? You know, the whole will of fire thing.

[Abdula]

We are all assuming that with this new information, that Tsunade herself wouldn't have done the same as Danzo.

Give it some time, we will see if the policies started by Danzo are really in line with the good of the villiage or will it lead it to further ruin.

If it was Tsunade, if she was using her head she would have done the same thing.

I don't know man I'm wondering if you read my posts?

Konoha in the past seems to have been handled more like a goodwill brotherhood than a true ninja village. They are supposed to be in the military business. What matters most is getting stronger, not upholding moral values. The countries don't rely on ninja villages to teach them to be more virtuous, I believe they have temples and priests for that.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession.

Isn't that what Konoha is pretty much all about? You know, the whole will of fire thing.

That's my point exactly. If you want someone to lead a ninja village then I can't think of anyone better than Danzo but I believe it was Zabuza who said that Naruto and co. were just kids playing at being ninjas and that is why Danzo would never work as the Hokage.

Konoha is way too soft and every last one of them buys into the will of fire doctrine. Konoha's beliefs are just too entirely unrealistic for me to actually believe that a ninja village like that could have lasted as long as they have much less be as powerful as they are if not for people like Danzo.